JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2

[Titus]

As Greek scholar AT Robertson stated:

Conflict of interest.
AT was a baptist.
He had a doctrine that he tried to insert into Acts 2:38.

Consensus of Greek scholars is what you need to have credibility.
Quote multiple Greek scholars that are not Baptist Dan.

AT Robertson had an agenda.
His testimony on this subject would never hold up in a cort of law because of his biasis.

Of course you would quote a Baptist.

But not James.

 

[Titus]

I'm not the one who is confused. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day

Your religion was developed by a bunch of cherry pickers.
Acts 9:6.

 

[mailmandan]

Conflict of interest.
AT was a baptist.
He had a doctrine that he tried to insert into Acts 2:38.

Consensus of Greek scholars is what you need to have credibility.
Quote multiple Greek scholars that are not Baptist Dan.

AT Robertson had an agenda.
His testimony on this subject would never hold up in a cort of law because of his biasis.

Of course you would quote a Baptist.

But not James.

E Calvin Beisner something similar - In short, the most precise English translation of the relevant clauses, arranging them to reflect the switches in person and number of the verbs, would be, “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular)….” Or, to adopt our Southern dialect again, “Y’all repent for the forgiveness of y’all’s sins, and let each one of you be baptized….”

When I showed this translation to the late Julius Mantey, one of the foremost Greek grammarians of the twentieth century and co-author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (originally published in 1927), he approved and even signed his name next to it in the margin of my Greek New Testament. These arguments, lexical and grammatical, stand independently. Even if one rejects both lexical meanings of for, he still must face the grammatical argument, and even if he rejects the grammatical conclusion, he still must face the lexical argument. Does Acts 2:38 prove baptismal remission? No, it doesn’t even support it as part of a cumulative case. — E. Calvin Beisner

http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAA238.pdf

Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: It is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol (although only the reality remits sins). In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

Oneness Pentecostals believe the work of Baptism saves

 

[mailmandan]

Your religion was developed by a bunch of cherry pickers.
Acts 9:6.

We are to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

 

[Titus]

We are to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

Says the man that cherry picks which commandments he says are binding and others that are unnecessary to obey.

 

[mailmandan]

Says the man that cherry picks which commandments he says are binding and others that are unnecessary to obey.

I never said anything about commandments being unnecessary to obey. Commandments are not suggestions, but not every commandment is a prerequisite for salvation. Multiple commandments are for believers after salvation.

 

[Titus]

E Calvin Beisner something similar - In short, the most precise English translation of the relevant clauses, arranging them to reflect the switches in person and number of the verbs, would be, “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular)….” Or, to adopt our Southern dialect again, “Y’all repent for the forgiveness of y’all’s sins, and let each one of you be baptized….”

When I showed this translation to the late Julius Mantey, one of the foremost Greek grammarians of the twentieth century and co-author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (originally published in 1927), he approved and even signed his name next to it in the margin of my Greek New Testament. These arguments, lexical and grammatical, stand independently. Even if one rejects both lexical meanings of for, he still must face the grammatical argument, and even if he rejects the grammatical conclusion, he still must face the lexical argument. Does Acts 2:38 prove baptismal remission? No, it doesn’t even support it as part of a cumulative case. — E. Calvin Beisner

http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAA238.pdf

Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: It is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol (although only the reality remits sins). In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

Oneness Pentecostals believe the work of Baptism saves

Your arguments are no good.
Stop wasting my time.
I'm going to stop responding.
You have nothing that proves your position.

AT Robertson admits both verbs repentance and baptism can in the Greek language relate to the forgiveness of sins.

He simp,y does not want them to because he's a Baptist.

JR Mantey says both are for the forgiveness of sins.

CK Barrett says both are for the forgiveness of sins.

F.F. Bruce both are connected to forgiveness of sins.

Stanley Porter both are connected to the forgiveness of sins.

Peter is the one you need to quote!!!!

1Peter 3:20-21,
- the like figure whereunto even baptism Doth also now save us not the washing away the filth of the flesh(taking a bath) but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the ressurection of Jesus Christ

Peter says baptism is not and its not washing the body but the response of a good conscience toward God by the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

Peter teaches people respond to being baptized when they are moved by Christs ressurection.

It's what moved me to be baptized. Knowing Christ ressurectied from the dead.

Jesus and Paul and the Holy Spirit all said we are ressurected with Christ in our baptism, Romans 6:1-7.

Those baptized into Christ will also be ressurected in His 2nd coming, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

 

[Titus]

I never said anything about commandments being unnecessary to obey. Commandments are not suggestions, but not every commandment is a prerequisite for salvation. Multiple commandments are for believers after salvation.

Can I not be baptized which is a commandment and still have eternal life?

 

[mailmandan]

Your arguments are no good.
Stop wasting my time.
I'm going to stop responding.
You have nothing that proves your position.

AT Robertson admits both verbs repentance and baptism can in the Greek language relate to the forgiveness of sins.

He simp,y does not want them to because he's a Baptist.

JR Mantey says both are for the forgiveness of sins.

CK Barrett says both are for the forgiveness of sins.

F.F. Bruce both are connected to forgiveness of sins.

Stanley Porter both are connected to the forgiveness of sins.

Peter is the one you need to quote!!!!

1Peter 3:20-21,
- the like figure whereunto even baptism Doth also now save us not the washing away the filth of the flesh(taking a bath) but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the ressurection of Jesus Christ

Peter says baptism is not and its not washing the body but the response of a good conscience toward God by the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

Peter teaches people respond to bring baptized when they are moved by Christs ressurection.

It's what moved me to be baptized. Knowing Christ ressurectied from the dead.

Jesus and Paul and the Holy Spirit all said we are ressurected with Christ in our baptism, Romans 6:1-7.

Those baptized into Christ will also be ressurected in His 2nd coming, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

He said vs. they said is not going to settle the issue. So, you discriminate against Baptists?

 

[Titus]

He said vs. they said is not going to settle the issue. So, you discriminate against Baptists?

When it's on baptism for the forgiveness of sins, are you kidding?

 

[Titus]

He said vs. they said is not going to settle the issue. So, you discriminate against Baptists?

I intentionally left out a Greek scholar from the churches of Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Can I not be baptized which is a commandment and still have eternal life?

Ask the thief on the cross.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Water baptism is a command for believers who have already received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:43-47) *Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Now comes the command to be baptized.

 

[amigo de christo]

Ask the thief on the cross.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Water baptism is a command for believers who have already received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:43-47) *Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Now comes the command to be baptized.

He who does NOT BELIEVE is CONDEMNED . let interafaith interreligious anti christ co workers KNOW that .
cause that darn sure aint what they said to all them false religoins .
Yeah , i so have a serious problem with intefaith which i know cometh of that which is of anti christ .
BELEIVE . that word sure seems to be missing IN THEIR vocabulary , lest it be THE LIE . they beleive that all right , the lie .

 

[Titus]

Ask the thief on the cross.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Water baptism is a command for believers who have already received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:43-47) *Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Now comes the command to be baptized.

Thanks,
So you admit that you do not believe one must keep all of Gods commandments.
You proved me correct again.
Your religion cherry picks which commandments they say you must keep and the others you dont need to keep.

Your religion really is salvation through disobedience.
You will never get me to become disobedient to God Dan.

You know Gods will is for us to be baptized otherwise He would not make it a must.
Paul had to be baptized Dan.
You are ignoring Jesus when he told Paul he must be baptized.

Why do you not love God Dan?
1 John 2:3-4,
- and hereby we do know that we know Jesus if we keep His commandments(Dan taught me I dont need to keep His commandments)
- he that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

I will continue to do all that God wills for me to do.
You will continue in lies. Only teaching commandments are unnecessary.

 

[Titus]

Dan wants to be saved under the old testament crucified next to Jesus.
Good luck with that Dan.

But Dan didn't ask me to be saved like the rich young ruler,
Matthew 19:16-22,
- Jesus said unto him why callest Me thou good, but one that is good, but if thou wilt enter into life keep My commandments
- Jesus said to him, if thou wilt be perfect go and sell that thou hast and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in heaven and come follow Me
- but when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful for he had great possessions


Doesnt sound like Jesus preached belief only salvation does it Dan.
Of course you will deny this also.
Jesus expects obedience to be saved.
The rich young ruler was commanded to keep all the commandments to enter heaven.
Dan teaches you dont need to keep them all.
Just the ones he agrees with in his church doctrine.

Jesus was not a belief only and no commandment keeping salvationist!!!

 

[mailmandan]

Thanks,
So you admit that you do not believe one must keep all of Gods commandments.

Not all of God's commandments are prerequisites to become saved. Water baptism is a command for saved believers who have already received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:43-47) I have not disregarded the command to be water baptized. I was water baptized after I believed in Jesus Christ for salvation, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and was saved just as these Gentiles were.

You proved me correct again.

I proved you wrong again.

Your religion cherry picks which commandments they say you must keep and the others you dont need to keep.

Straw man argument. My religion understands that not all of God's commandments are prerequisites to become saved. There are multiple commandments for Christians to keep AFTER they have been saved through faith, and I disregard none of His commandments. Baptism put it in its proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all good works must be. This does not disregard good works (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; Ephesians 2:10) Your religion turns keeping all of God's commandments into salvation by works.

Your religion really is salvation through disobedience.

Salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not disobedience.

You will never get me to become disobedient to God Dan.

Until one chooses to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel (Acts 20:21; Romans 1:16; 10:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8) they remain disobedient to God no matter how many works they set out to accomplish from a heart of unbelief.

You know Gods will is for us to be baptized otherwise He would not make it a must.
Paul had to be baptized Dan.
You are ignoring Jesus when he told Paul he must be baptized.

I was water baptized AFTER I was saved through faith and so was Paul. Show me where Jesus said whoever is not baptized will be condemned. It's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Why do you not love God Dan?

Straw man argument. Why do you refuse to believe the gospel Titus? It's a rhetorical question. I love God because He first loved me. (1 John 4:19) God’s love has been poured out into my heart through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to me. (Romans 5:5) Agape love originates with God as God is love.

1 John 2:3-4,
- and hereby we do know that we know Jesus if we keep His commandments (Dan taught me I dont need to keep His commandments)
- he that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, (empty profession) “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Dan taught you that not all of God's commandments are prerequisites for salvation and multiple commandments are for those who have already been saved through faith, but you can't seem to grasp the difference. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works and slandering me is not part of keeping God's commandments.

I will continue to do all that God wills for me to do.

You confuse God's will for us to become saved (John 6:40; Acts 10:43) with God's will for us AFTER we have been saved (Acts 10:47-48) because you teach salvation by works.

You will continue in lies. Only teaching commandments are unnecessary.

Your false gospel of works righteousness is a lie. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Dan wants to be saved under the old testament crucified next to Jesus.
Good luck with that Dan.

I want you to be saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) like the rest of us.

But Dan didn't ask me to be saved like the rich young ruler,
Matthew 19:16-22,
- Jesus said unto him why callest Me thou good, but one that is good, but if thou wilt enter into life keep My commandments
- Jesus said to him, if thou wilt be perfect go and sell that thou hast and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in heaven and come follow Me
- but when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful for he had great possessions

Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation (John 3:18) so he has not kept the commandments from his youth up.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches. (Matthew 19:21-23) He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet instead, Paul said - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Doesnt sound like Jesus preached belief only salvation does it Dan.

Doesn't sound like it "on the surface" to works-salvationists but believers understand the difference. If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we obtained salvation, then why did Jesus not mention that in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the one requirement that Jesus mentioned here? BELIEVES.

Of course you will deny this also.
Jesus expects obedience to be saved.

So, how much obedience does it take? How many good works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save you? Imperfect obedience along with unbelief cannot save you.

The rich young ruler was commanded to keep all the commandments to enter heaven.
Dan teaches you dont need to keep them all.
Just the ones he agrees with in his church doctrine.

So, who has kept all of God's commandments flawlessly and has never sinned? Only Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22) Jesus named 5 of the 10 commandments - ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ Are you sinless and perfect like Jesus is, Titus? Be honest. The rich young ruler was not honest.

Jesus was not a belief only and no commandment keeping salvationist!!!

Jesus was a "believes in Him" salvationist (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) and Jesus understood that by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments for NT believers we demonstrate that we have come to know Him. (1 John 2:3) To "keep" (Greek word "tereo") His commandments means to guard, observe, watch over His commandments. Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

This does not mean sinless, perfect obedience to the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Let’s be clear.

James asks, “Can faith save him?” and he means salvation.
Not reputation, not optics and not “how you appear to men.”
Salvation.
Period.

He cites Abraham—justified in private obedience before God.
Rahab, vindicated in secret, risking everything.
Demons, who believe, yet are damned.
None of these examples involve impressing human eyes.
It’s about standing before a holy God.

Yet the modern theological spin doctors twist it into:
“James just meant public testimony!”

That’s not "rightly dividing the Word".
That’s carving it up to fit a dead system—
gutting Scripture with a scalpel forged in hell until grace itself is unrecognizable.

They’re not defenders of grace.
They’re butchers of truth.
Dealers in delusion.
Bewitched to the bone—
And their spell is contagious to any soul not clinging to the narrowest of roads,
nor wielding the Word like a master swordsmith in a kingdom at war.

And by that I mean the whole Word—
not the cherry-picked verses these Scofield-Rockefeller demons have waved like talismans,
hypnotizing the Church for over a century… while Hell applauds from the shadows.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dan the Greek literally will not allow your interpretation.
You need to stop thinking you understand Greek when you have no training in that language.

Actually He got his interpretation from the greek

Even the old english bibles show it. Rent ye, (plural) and let every one of you (singular) be baptized

In greek repent is 2nd person plural and goes with gift of the spirit

Be baptized is 3rd person singular. and goes with remission of sin

for can be translation in order to recieve

or it can be translated because of ir in reference too.

either way.. Greek supports Dan's comment

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not the one who is confused. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

amazing how we both say the same thing..