JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2

[Eternally Grateful]

Says the man that cherry picks which commandments he says are binding and others that are unnecessary to obey.

talk about bearing false witness. @mailmandan never made any such statement

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can I not be baptized which is a commandment and still have eternal life?

if you do get water baptized to recieve eternal life

Then it is just a work of self righteousness

Now if you did it in gratitude and obedience because you were given eternal life. well then that is a work of righteousness

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I intentionally left out a Greek scholar from the churches of Christ.

did we just find the problem?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dan wants to be saved under the old testament crucified next to Jesus.
Good luck with that Dan.

But Dan didn't ask me to be saved like the rich young ruler,
Matthew 19:16-22,
- Jesus said unto him why callest Me thou good, but one that is good, but if thou wilt enter into life keep My commandments
- Jesus said to him, if thou wilt be perfect go and sell that thou hast and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in heaven and come follow Me
- but when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful for he had great possessions


Doesnt sound like Jesus preached belief only salvation does it Dan.
Of course you will deny this also.
Jesus expects obedience to be saved.
The rich young ruler was commanded to keep all the commandments to enter heaven.
Dan teaches you dont need to keep them all.
Just the ones he agrees with in his church doctrine.

Jesus was not a belief only and no commandment keeping salvationist!!!

Paul said in rom 4 we are saved by the same faith of abraham, the father of us all

So you do not want to be saved that way too?

 

[KUWN]

Jesus on the cross is not responding to the gospel.

What did Jesus tell those they must do in response to His gospel.
Please don't cherry pick faith verses. Give all, the passages on what Jesus taught one must do in response to His gospel.

Matthew 28:18-20.

Do you know how many verses you are asking him to give you? That has always been my pet peeve out here, we should all be familiar with the Scriptures so that we don't have to give ALL THE PASSAGES. If you don't know where all (or even one) the passages are, simply use a concordance, or google it.

 

[Soyeong]

What would be the value of Abraham being justified before man, but not before God? What would be the value of man seeing Abraham as being justified if he was not justified before God? What would be the value of James making this point? Where is the precedent for James to speak about justification before man, but not before God?

 

[KUWN]

What would be the value of Abraham being justified before man, but not before God? What would be the value of man seeing Abraham as being justified if he was not justified before God? What would be the value of James making this point? Where is the precedent for James to speak about justification before man, but not before God?

It is important to remember that there are two justifications in Scripture. Abe justified before man, does not mean that he was not justified before God also. Am I misunderstanding your questions?

 

[Soyeong]

It is important to remember that there are two justifications in Scripture. Abe justified before man, does not mean that he was not justified before God also. Am I misunderstanding your questions?

If you are making a distinction between justification before God and before man, then that leaves room for someone to be justified before man while not being justified before God, however, I don’t see the value of this or of man seeing someone as being justified who is not justified before God or of James making this distinction.

 

[amigo de christo]

Paul said in rom 4 we are saved by the same faith of abraham, the father of us all

So you do not want to be saved that way too?

and whose faith was abraham in my friend . GOD . God spoke abraham beleived .
Yet i see many following ecumeincal interfaith interreligious dialgoue .
WHO from the lips of men, NOT GOD , said that all religoins are serving the same GOD the christains do .
Lets examine that anti christ lie ..........shall we .
What DID JESUS tell the jews who CLAIMED GOD WAS THEIR FATHER , WHO CLIAMED MOSES , who claimed
to be of abraham , YET DID NOT BLEIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . oh yeah he said your father is the devil .
SO the next time some wacked out anti christ stands and tries to sell us on the idea
that the unbelieving jews , the muslims , any or any othe religoin serves the same GOD we do ..
THEN tries to pretend they all follow the abrahamic faith . YEAH , DONT HEED A WORD ONE outta such lips .
CAUSE no ma tter how hard they try a sell a lie , OH ITS A LIE .
NO matter how they stand and cry this is the way for peace n safety
IT ONLY ENDS IN THEIR SUDDEN DESTRUCTION by the very GOD , HIS CHRIST whose gospel THEY DENIED
and sold a means of anti christ peace to this lost people .

 

[Behold]

A relatively new interpretation of the context of James 2 is that James is explaining a christian's justification before man by the works that are born of ones faith.
This is error a misinterpretation and reinterpretation of what James is teaching on justification through faith in Christ.

If we actually read what James said to the BELIEVERS, who he is chastizing for their "dead faith"... ( Has no works)...

James is talking to the BELIEVERS.........as a sinner would not have any faith.......much less "dead".

See it reader?

ONLY A CHRISITAN can have Dead faith, where once it was LIVELY... BURSTING and FULL...but now its become something else., as James is explaining that FACT to these particular CHRISTIANS he's = encouraging.

Now, James says to the BORN AGAIN, who are not doing anything for God.....

= "I will show YOU my faith... = by my......works"..

See that?

That is what it says, because that is what the verse means........>James is talking to CHRISTIANS, who are what Jesus defined as "lukewarm".. and James is explaining to the BELIEVERS that we do works to prove our FAITH = before OTHER PEOPLE......not before God.
See, we dont have to do anything to prove faith to God, as God sees our HEART...>>>He looks inside us, and He sees Faith or lack of it., or none of it., while we are sleeping or eating or jogging or watching a Big Screen TV.
Whereas, people who are watching Christians, .. = they judge you by your WORKS...as this proves to them that you have Faith...that you are a REAL Christian......or not.......according to THEIR point of view.

See it?

That's the verse.
Its really very simple../. as That is what James is explaning and teaching to these lazy ineffective born again believers.

 

[KUWN]

If you are making a distinction between justification before God and before man, then that leaves room for someone to be justified before man while not being justified before God, however, I don’t see the value of this or of man seeing someone as being justified who is not justified before God or of James making this distinction.

Didn't quite follow your concern here or your comment. A better translation for a man being justified before man could be translated "vindicated." Please note that this justification/vindication does not imply salvation. Justification before God is to salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

Didn't quite follow your concern here or your comment. A better translation for a man being justified before man could be translated "vindicated." Please note that this justification/vindication does not imply salvation. Justification before God is to salvation.

What good is justification or vindication before man but not before God?

 

[TitusTwoWife]

@Titus thank you for teaching truth. OP was great.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

and whose faith was abraham in my friend . GOD . God spoke abraham beleived .
Yet i see many following ecumeincal interfaith interreligious dialgoue .
WHO from the lips of men, NOT GOD , said that all religoins are serving the same GOD the christains do .
Lets examine that anti christ lie ..........shall we .
What DID JESUS tell the jews who CLAIMED GOD WAS THEIR FATHER , WHO CLIAMED MOSES , who claimed
to be of abraham , YET DID NOT BLEIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . oh yeah he said your father is the devil .
SO the next time some wacked out anti christ stands and tries to sell us on the idea
that the unbelieving jews , the muslims , any or any othe religoin serves the same GOD we do ..
THEN tries to pretend they all follow the abrahamic faith . YEAH , DONT HEED A WORD ONE outta such lips .
CAUSE no ma tter how hard they try a sell a lie , OH ITS A LIE .
NO matter how they stand and cry this is the way for peace n safety
IT ONLY ENDS IN THEIR SUDDEN DESTRUCTION by the very GOD , HIS CHRIST whose gospel THEY DENIED
and sold a means of anti christ peace to this lost people .

It does nt matter what church, what denomination. What creede or what social group you belong to.

Salvation is by grace throuygh faith.l not of works lest anyone should boast.

Religion does nt get you to heaven

Good deeds will not cause God to forgive one sin.

 

[Soyeong]

It does nt matter what church, what denomination. What creede or what social group you belong to.

Salvation is by grace throuygh faith.l not of works lest anyone should boast.

Religion does nt get you to heaven

Good deeds will not cause God to forgive one sin.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works in obedience to His law is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of God in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be doers of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20).

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to earn our way there but because that is the way to know Jesus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works in obedience to His law is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of God in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be doers of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20).

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to earn our way there but because that is the way to know Jesus.

Salvation.. Justification. being redeemed or purchased by God through his blood. is a one time deal. It happens the moment we recieve the gift of Grace. in humility callin gout on the name of the lord.

Sanctification, is the part of salvation (the results) where God creates in us the heart and the will and the ability to do good works..

Works are not part of the being justified process. You can work every day doing all things for God. and you still will have sinned and fall short of Gods glory.

We work because God saved us.,

Not in hopes God may save us..

 

[Soyeong]

Salvation.. Justification. being redeemed or purchased by God through his blood. is a one time deal. It happens the moment we recieve the gift of Grace. in humility callin gout on the name of the lord.

Sanctification, is the part of salvation (the results) where God creates in us the heart and the will and the ability to do good works..

Works are not part of the being justified process. You can work every day doing all things for God. and you still will have sinned and fall short of Gods glory.

We work because God saved us.,

Not in hopes God may save us..

In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham was listed twice when he obeyed the call to go to the land where he would received his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8) and when he offered Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), neither of which was when he was justified when he believed God (Genesis 15:6), so Abraham was justified at least three times.

The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7), so it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

While is is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God, it its also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so the was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith but not insofar as they were earning it a wage.

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to have our lives directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of God, which is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13. We do not do good works because God has saved us or in hopes that He may save us, but rather we are doers of good works because He is saving us from not being doers of good works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham was listed twice when he obeyed the call to go to the land where he would received his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8) and when he offered Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), neither of which was when he was justified when he believed God (Genesis 15:6), so Abraham was justified at least three times.

The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7), so it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

While is is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God, it its also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so the was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith but not insofar as they were earning it a wage.

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to have our lives directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of God, which is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13. We do not do good works because God has saved us or in hopes that He may save us, but rather we are doers of good works because He is saving us from not being doers of good works.

1st. You will never become rightous.. Righteousness ny defenition is perfection..
2nd. Abraham was saved in Gen when he believed God. and God credited it to him as righteous. This was decaded before issac was even born. and even longer before Abraham offered his son.

Hebrews 11 isd a faith hall of fame. God holds up people who should great deads of faith.. These people did not do these deeds to get saved. they did them because God saved them

If your trying to earn your enterance into heaven. You will faill.. Jesus said onlyy through him can you enter. Not through him and yourself..

 

[amigo de christo]

It does nt matter what church, what denomination. What creede or what social group you belong to.

Salvation is by grace throuygh faith.l not of works lest anyone should boast.

Religion does nt get you to heaven

Good deeds will not cause God to forgive one sin.

through faith ......................IN JESUS CHRIST .
And another sin accepting jesus cannot save but can only grave .
Now if you feel i am in heavy e rror , do feel free to show me my error . Do bring scrips of course .

 

[amigo de christo]

Salvation.. Justification. being redeemed or purchased by God through his blood. is a one time deal. It happens the moment we recieve the gift of Grace. in humility callin gout on the name of the lord.

Sanctification, is the part of salvation (the results) where God creates in us the heart and the will and the ability to do good works..

Works are not part of the being justified process. You can work every day doing all things for God. and you still will have sinned and fall short of Gods glory.

We work because God saved us.,

Not in hopes God may save us..

What simple truth . now lets see if you really believe that .
WHY ON GODS GREEN earth am i seeing folks beleiving that all religoins serve the same GOD we do .
THEM anti christ religoins , as in ISLAM and scores of o thers , DENY JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD
and at most preach a jesus THAT IS NO JESUS .
YET i see folks flying , literally gathering by troops TO an ecumeincal INTERFAITH INTERRELIGIOUS ANTI CHRIST love .
WE cannot and do not BELIEVE if we allow UNBELIEF . it was always UNBELIEF that was our god .
The muslims DO NOT serve the same GOD WE DO .
EVEN jews who do not BELIEVE ON JESUS truly SERVE the same GOD WE DO , FOR TO DENY JESUS IS THE CHRIST , IS TO DENY GOD
all MIGHTY HIMSELF who sent the son . You think it was bad to deny the message of the prophets , AND YES
it was . HOW much worse TO DENY JESUS . AGAIN , before all today , I ASK
if you see ERROR in what i just said , YOU SHOW ME THIS ERROR .
Scrips only please . Let us begin WITH JESUS OWN WORDS .