JUSTIFICATION by works, grace, or faith?
- Thread starter TonyChanYT
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No
He was justified many decades before he offered his son up. (see Gen 15: 16, before his son was even born he did not offer up his son until Gen 22
Your trying to use james to contradict paul. by taking james out of context.
You need to look at the whole..
Arthur81
Active Member
Tony, Abraham's words showed him to be already a righteous person, it proved his claim to be right with God. This is what I meant by you confusing the meanings of "justify". One meaning is to show or give evidence to support that you have REAL saving faith, and the other meaning is of God's declaration of his elect to be justified based on the merit of Christ.
Behold
Well-Known Member
@TonyChanYT ,
That's a nice idea, but its not related to Christianity.
This is...
Titus 3:5-7 KJV
""NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,""""Why do you need to understand this?
Its because your logical equivalency concept is denied by Paul's verse.
See, he is stating that works of righteousness can be done... but this has no part in Salvation.
That means that works and Salvation are not equivalent.
Works are just works..
Now let me give you something to consider, reader.
Lets say you are nice person, but you are an unbeliever.
So, you give to the poor, you pay your taxes, and you dont cheat on your husband or wife, and you take care of your kids.
See all that, those are good works, and they are nothing more.
NOW...
Lets say that today, at 7am, you trusted in Christ, .. you heard the Gospel, and gave God your faith in Christ.
He then gave you the blood atonement that took care of your sin, and then He gave you the Gift of Righteousness, and now you are become "the righteousness of God in Christ".. = BORN Again, by the Holy Spirit (not by water).
So..... you now go out each new day, as a born again believer, and give to the poor, pay your taxes, dont cheat on your mate, and take care of your kids.
See those works?
They are no different to God in VALUE, then they were when you were a hell bound, unsaved, unbeliever, doing them.
Never believe that your works after you are saved, that you could do before you were, are now magically transformed, as BETTER, or Accepted by God.
They are not. They are the same exact works that have the same ZERO VALUE, regarding getting God to take you, or keep you.
Reader, God is looking for a Transformed Life.......as works are always just works.
Last edited:
Behold
Well-Known Member
The Cross of Christ is all that God offers or ever will offer this World, so that by Christ's Sacrifice we can be and will be Justified before God.
James writes "I will show YOU my faith, by my works'.......But notice that he didnt say.. "i will show GOD my faith by my works"..
Reason? = Because People judge your Christianity by your works, your deeds, your TALK, your "fruit'.
God does not. God judges your Christianity by looking at your HEART's motive, regarding all things.
So....Never try to pretend that works that you can do, are equal to the Sacrifice of Jesus.... before God's eyes.
Many people, and all heretics, live in Matthew, James, Hebrews, and The Revelation, and "Greek lexicons" that they can't actually read.
And, when a person tries to filter the Cross, and God's Grace...... through a couple of verses in James, then they will always come out on the other side confused while trying to prove that Faith in Christ is not quite enough, and we have to add to it our PERFORMANCE.
And that false gospel, is this.... Galatians 1:8
That statement has been proved by First-Order Logic. Can you find any holes in the FOL?
Behold
Well-Known Member
That's a nice idea, but its not related to Christianity.
This is...
Titus 3:5-7 KJV
""NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,""""Why do you need to understand this?
Its because your logical equivalency concept is denied by Paul's verse.
See, he is stating that works of righteousness can be done... but this has no part in Salvation.
That means that works and Salvation are not equivalent.
Works are just works..
Behold
Well-Known Member
If you try to prove that works and faith are what God requires to give you """the Gift of Salvation.."""
Then, you just denied that its a ""GIFT""", you just insulted the Grace of God, and you've proven that you dont yet understand the Cross of Christ.
""""Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the GIFT of God,""""
But the free GIFT is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the GIFT by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thanks be to God for His indescribable Gift.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God;
Arthur81
Active Member
But are you applying the correct meaning in the proper places?
Arthur81
Active Member
Your posts have been so jumbled it is hard to know what you believe. Do you believe in justification by faith alone, solely on the merit of Jesus Christ? Or, do you add "works" in order to be justified? Are you a do-it-yourself, free-lance theologian, or do you identify with any denomination or Confession of Faith? I can embrace the statements in the following confessions plus Luther's translation of Romans 3:28. Can you embrace the following, or do you go your own way?
Westminster Confession, Presbyterian
"Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."
1646 First London Confession of Faith, Baptist
"All the elect being loved of God with an everlasting love, are redeemed, quickened, and saved, not by themselves, nor their own works, lest any man should boast, but, only and wholly by God, of His own free grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, who is made unto us by God, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, and all in all, that he that rejoiceth, might rejoice in the Lord.....
Those that have union with Christ, are justified from all their sins by the blood of Christ, which justification is a gracious and full acquittance of a guilty sinner from all sin, by God, through the satisfaction that Christ hath made by His death for all their sins, and this applied (in manifestation of it) through faith."
39 Articles of the Church of England/Anglican
"We are accounted righteous before God solely on account of the merit of our Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ through faith and not on account of our own good works or of what we deserve.
Consequently the teaching that we are justified by faith alone is a most wholesome and
comforting doctrine. This is taught more fully in the homily on Justification."
Martin Luther's Translation of Romans 3:28
"We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith alone, apart from the works of the law." (Rom 3:28 )
Methodist Articles of Religion
"We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only, is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort."
I'm an old fashioned Particular Baptist embracing the 1646 Confession above. I can agree with the doctrines of the brethren in other major denominations as being justified by faith alone. Can you agree to that?
Arthur81
Active Member
Tony:
In your OP your wrote: "Works alone are not sufficient, you need faith as well."
Your English composition is stating that justification is a joint effort, works plus faith. That is false.
In your OP you wrote: "Works are necessary; just don't boast about it". That is false.
In your OP you wrote: "We need all three, works, grace, and faith to be justified."
Do we need all three to be declared justified by God? NO!
Do we need all three to show to others that we are justified by a true saving faith? YES!
You have muddled the two meanings together in your statement. I've been trying to be positive with you, and see a possibility you are just not accomplished in English composition; but I'm beginning to think you are genuinely wrong in how you view the biblical doctrine of justification by God.
Yes.
Or any kind of works, only faithful works for justification.
I am not any kind of theologian.
I don't have a denomination and I don't belong to the category of non-denomination either.
I go my own way.
Arthur81
Active Member
It has become quite clear, you do go your "own way".
"Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor 2:14 NRSV)
"One's own interpretation", means without the Holy Spirit's illumination.
"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2Pet 1:20-21 NRSV)
Belief/faith and grace in conjunction with repentance and baptism = justification or salvation.
The "works" you indicated are really simply obedience, and unfortunately, a great many people erroneously believe that things like baptism are a "work", and therefore not required which is contrary to scripture. Baptism is NOT a work nor is confession with the mouth, although both being physical in nature.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
this is legalism, and is a different gospel.. it negates grace and can not save anyone
Sorry, your words and thoughts and inconsistent with the clear words and thoughts expressed in the word of God.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Romans 11: 6
for if it is by grace, it is no longer of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace..
and if it is by works, it is no longer of grace, otherwise grace is no longer grace
Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy (grace) He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
these are the clear words expressed in the word of God. and they prove what i said was correct
