Justifying Works

[Netchaplain]

I've never seen an example of faith and works standing alone.

Hi KE - Me neither. When James wrote that "faith without works is dead," I believe his intention is that by the word "dead" he means no or non-existent faith. Though works are not the life of faith, the inverse is true! Faith never fails and is permanent, and will always eventually produce works.

Thanks for your reply and God bless!

 

[skypair]

We establish the law"....the works part is, of course, repentance after being forgiven of sins by God's grace.

Actually, that is backwards. Repentance comes before forgiveness of sin in the inner man, Acts 2:38. Then once the inner man is "cleansed" by regeneration, he is "renewed" by the Holy Spirit indwelling, Titus 3:5. "Renewed" = new creation.

skypair

 

[skypair]

.in Acts 15 the law of Moses was considered obsolete by the Apostles with the exception of the four mentioned...
This does not affect God's law the ten Commandments...

Actually, the "heart of stone" was the heart with God's law hidden in it. And, indeed, according to Ro 2:14-15, we all have God's "law written on our hearts, our consciences bearing us witness…" So when we break one of those laws, we are disobedient to God and become sinners having a sin nature in our heart - in our souls - our consciences bearing witness to us from the Spirit that we are unsaved.

So what is the "heart of flesh?" It is the heart or soul that in saved having the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" in it which "makes us free from the law of sin and death." That is, the Spirit fulfills the 10 commandments by giving us love for God and others from our inner man outward a) to our spirit, our thinking, and b) to our flesh, our behavior making us "spiritual men" (Ro 8:9), not carnal.

skypair

 

[skypair]

BTW the tablets of stone with God's ten commandments are inside the ark of the covenant...the Mosaic law written by Moses is on the outside..Ex 25

And so learn the symbology of that. The tabernacle was man. The outer court, his flesh; the holy place, his spirit; and the Holy of holies, his soul. Now in the soul of the saved person are the tablets of the law (Ro 2:14-15), the rod of Aaron — of life from the dead, and the golden bowl of manna — the truths of God that we have faith in because of our "golden" salvation. And ALL of these are under grace — under the mercy seat above which the Holy Spirit is seated having secured all those things within the ark by His indwelling.

skypair

 

[skypair]

If God could impart righteousness that would mean you would have your own instead of it being imputed, and to have your own would require being without the sin nature, which only Jesus was. Thus the righteousness believers are in is Christ's, "who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1Cor 1:30). Scripture shows only "imputed" righteousness for man.

Strange that you would quote 1Cor 1:30 where is says Christ is our righteousness and yet not believe that God has imparted righteousness to us. He has, NC. By Christ's Spirit living in us, we have our own righteousness which is of God. Because the OT saints could not have the indwelling Spirit, they had to have righteousness inputed to them.

We spoke of this on another thread but here goes: We are made in Christ's express image when we are born again — we being born of the Spirit as He was born. He had the Holy Spirit of the "new creation" from birth — we only by rebirth.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I partly agree, in that we still have the sin nature, thus we still sin, but it's not willful (Heb 10:26). And because of the "old man" (sin nature) we cannot possess our own righteousness. This is why "Christ is our life" (Col 3:4) and hence His righteousness is our righteousness, for He "is made unto us righteousness" (1Cor 1:30).

We don't "still have the sin nature," NC .. we have the divine nature — just like Jesus. "Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus…" You empty yourself, right? You are now in the form of God .. being found in the fashion of man, humble yourself and be obedient unto death. (Phil 2:5-8)

skypair

 

[skypair]

…but it's my understanding that He is our comforter and it's by Him were are reborn into the life of Christ (Col 3:4), and He teaches us what Jesus desires us to know (Jhn 14:26).

Let's broaden your vision a little here. Those of us who are saved ARE Comforters. The first Comforter (Jn 14:16, 15:26, 16:7) was Peter who delivered the Holy Spirit to those in Jerusalem, in Judea, in Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the world (the Gentiles). But we, as we share our faith and lead others to Christ, are now ourselves Comforters.

Now learn also this: It is the Comforters that will be taken out before the tribulation, 2Thes 2:6-8. "What withholds" = the believers. "He what restrains" = Holy Spirit. These together = Comforters. And anyone who believes in the rapture knows this is true.

skypair

 

[justaname]

We don't "still have the sin nature," NC .. we have the divine nature — just like Jesus. "Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus…" You empty yourself, right? You are now in the form of God .. being found in the fashion of man, humble yourself and be obedient unto death. (Phil 2:5-8)

skypair

Is it that we ourselves have the divine nature or that we have access to it?

Do you believe we become the Holy Spirit?

 

[skypair]

Is it that we ourselves have the divine nature or that we have access to it?

Do you believe we become the Holy Spirit?

Here's what I believe: God, in salvation, is recreating us into His sons (1Thes 5:23 (blameless .. body, soul, and spirit"). It starts with the soul — the command headquarters of our entire lives. In justification, He makes us exactly like Jesus — so without sin in our souls by virtue of the indwelling of Christ's Spirit (1Jn 3:9).

Then, through sanctification, He changes our spirits to think, emote, and will like His own Spirit. This is done as the Spirit works out into our lives controlling that which the law never could.

But in glorification, He also gives us a body like Jesus' body. 1Cor 15:38-40 calls it a "body of terrestrial glory" — the "glory" being that of the Holy Spirit shining out in our lives. Jn 17:21-23 is also very instructive telling us that we are already made one with the Father and Son in Christ — "that they may be made perfect in one; that the world may know that You have sent Me, and You have loved them as You have loved Me."

So in salvation, God takes away our sin nature — our heart inclined to sin and our conscience guilty of sin. He takes these away as far as the east is from the west. And this is part of the salvation experience, justaname. Both the lifting of the burden of sin on our conscience and the receiving of the Spirit in our hearts are witness that we have been forgiven by God. And this is the divine nature as I understand it: A pure conscience and an earnest desire to do the will of God.

So I believe that we become "Comforters" .. "another" like Jesus to those that we live among, Jn 14:16.

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

Strange that you would quote 1Cor 1:30 where is says Christ is our righteousness and yet not believe that God has imparted righteousness to us. He has, NC. By Christ's Spirit living in us, we have our own righteousness which is of God. Because the OT saints could not have the indwelling Spirit, they had to have righteousness inputed to them.

We spoke of this on another thread but here goes: We are made in Christ's express image when we are born again — we being born of the Spirit as He was born. He had the Holy Spirit of the "new creation" from birth — we only by rebirth.

skypair

Concerning the concept that the righteousness in the believer is Christ's righteousness, read Romans 4:22-24.
Blessings!

 

[Heb 13:8]

Underline: His call, His will for you

Rom 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2 Tim 1:9 He who has given us life and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his will and the grace which has been given to us in Yeshua The Messiah before the time of the world,

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

 

[Netchaplain]

Underline: His call, His will for you

Rom 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2 Tim 1:9 He who has given us life and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his will and the grace which has been given to us in Yeshua The Messiah before the time of the world,

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Hi Heb - Appreciate your reply but for me to know what you want to communicate it will require letting me know. Thanks!

 

[Heb 13:8]

Hi Heb - Appreciate your reply but for me to know what you want to communicate it will require letting me know. Thanks!

Message for non-osas:

His call is irrevocable, and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his will. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

 

[Netchaplain]

Message for non-osas:

His call is irrevocable, and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his will. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Yes, if you're trying to know if I'm an OSAS believer I am. Thanks.

 

[skypair]

Concerning the concept that the righteousness in the believer is Christ's righteousness, read Romans 4:22-24.

Very good, NC! But notice .. Ro 4:22-24 was talking about a work Abraham did after he was justified/saved. Also, it was an ordinary work but done according to faith. We see this also in Heb 11, right? There is says, "By faith [+ work] … and it was counted to him for righteousness." There are 2 things about obedience to God in the flesh. 1) Works according to faith render blessing and reward to the believer and 2) if we had done them "in the flesh," they would have been counted as "filthy rags."

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

Very good, NC! But notice .. Ro 4:22-24 was talking about a work Abraham did after he was justified/saved. Also, it was an ordinary work but done according to faith. We see this also in Heb 11, right? There is says, "By faith [+ work] … and it was counted to him for righteousness." There are 2 things about obedience to God in the flesh. 1) Works according to faith render blessing and reward to the believer and 2) if we had done them "in the flesh," they would have been counted as "filthy rags."

skypair

Hi Skypair - The I point I always like to make concerning "impute" is that this is distinct from "impart," which maintains credit and glory to God from where all righteousness dwells and not from man--but in man from God. This is the same for all godliness, i.e. holiness, justification, sanctification, etc. These all are "made unto us" and cannot originate from us (1 Co 1:30). It has been said that the attributes of God are not transferable to the creature (man). Thus I understand that "be ye holy" means that you are holy, because God is holy and those who are His are holy by His accepted calling from Him.

Everything concerning "works" is attributed to faith (as you've indicated) and faith is attributed as from God not man. This makes the believer passive concerning effecting godliness, but active being used by Him in it.

 

[skypair]

Hi Skypair - The I point I always like to make concerning "impute" is that this is distinct from "impart," which maintains credit and glory to God from where all righteousness dwells and not from man--but in man from God. This is the same for all godliness, i.e. holiness, justification, sanctification, etc. These all are "made unto us" and cannot originate from us (1 Co 1:30). It has been said that the attributes of God are not transferable to the creature (man). Thus I understand that "be ye holy" means that you are holy, because God is holy and those who are His are holy by His accepted calling from Him.

Everything concerning "works" is attributed to faith (as you've indicated) and faith is attributed as from God not man. This makes the believer passive concerning effecting godliness, but active being used by Him in it.

That's a little confusing to me. To me, God gives = imparts to us salvation, the Holy Spirit, the gifts. etc. They are our righteousness now, right? But when we use them to do His works, He imputes righteousness to our account until He can actually bless us temporally and reward us in New Jerusalem. He imputed righteousness to Noah's building of the ark until the time came of the flood and God delivered the blessing .. and in the kingdom to come, the reward. But doesn't scripture say that, in salvation, we already have the righteousness of Christ?

Your posts really stretch me and we may want to come up with something in between. But I think the OT saints are imputed with righteousness until when Christ arose when God imparted the blessings (heaven). Later He will impart the rewards to them in the Millennial Kingdom.

You sure to sharpen my understanding of scripture, NC. I am deep into soteriology and eschatology but you're taking me depths I hadn't really been to before. Thanks.

skypair

 

[justaname]

Hi Skypair - The I point I always like to make concerning "impute" is that this is distinct from "impart," which maintains credit and glory to God from where all righteousness dwells and not from man--but in man from God. This is the same for all godliness, i.e. holiness, justification, sanctification, etc. These all are "made unto us" and cannot originate from us (1 Co 1:30). It has been said that the attributes of God are not transferable to the creature (man). Thus I understand that "be ye holy" means that you are holy, because God is holy and those who are His are holy by His accepted calling from Him.

Everything concerning "works" is attributed to faith (as you've indicated) and faith is attributed as from God not man. This makes the believer passive concerning effecting godliness, but active being used by Him in it.

I liken this with Ephesians 2:7. Also along with your tag, No loner I, but Christ...

Then I agree faith is attributed as from God.

 

[Netchaplain]

That's a little confusing to me. To me, God gives = imparts to us salvation, the Holy Spirit, the gifts. etc. They are our righteousness now, right?

Yes, the Spirit, life of Christ, salvation and the new man (new nature) are imparted, but the fruit (works) of the Spirit in us is the godliness in us, but not from us and is used by the Spirit through us to others. The righteousness in us is not our own but Christ's!

Confusion is understandable because many have not learned in the outset of their salvation of these truths, and many other Biblical truths yet to learn.

 

[Netchaplain]

I liken this with Ephesians 2:7. Also along with your tag, No loner I, but Christ...

Then I agree faith is attributed as from God.

Yes, attributed from Him by imputation to us. Thanks for your input JAN!