Knowing "Truth"

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stunnedbygrace

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What passage do you have in mind?

Much love!
Mark

Hi Mark. I don't necessarily have any certain passage in mind. I was asking for your definition of what murder is. Bear with me and you will see what my point of response was when I said it was tricky to say a verse should have the same meaning with everyone, a plain and simple meaning.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Not trying to make a fool of you brother. Just trying to explain why it is tricky.
 

marks

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Hi Mark. I don't necessarily have any certain passage in mind. I was asking for your definition of what murder is. Bear with me and you will see what my point of response was when I said it was tricky to say a verse should have the same meaning with everyone, a plain and simple meaning.

Rather than delve into English definitions on their own right, since we're talking about whether or not there is an objective meaning to a given passage, I'd say let's look at a passage where you find the meaning "tricky", and go from there.

Much love!
Mark
 

stunnedbygrace

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Lol...I wasn't asking for a hypothetical example of murder. I was asking for your definition of murder. What do you, Mark, say murder is?
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Are you afraid of me Mark? I don't bite and I don't tear people down. Well...I bit Willie one time but he forgave me and I haven't bit anyone since.
 

Willie T

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Rather than delve into English definitions on their own right, since we're talking about whether or not there is an objective meaning to a given passage, I'd say let's look at a passage where you find the meaning "tricky", and go from there.

Much love!
Mark
Luke 14:26 "No", we don't get to play "explanation" games here. Joe Schmo, who has been told "the Bible means just what whatever the particular passage he reads in his English translation says, does not have the luxury of knowing the actual written words he is reading really don't mean what he understands them to mean.

And, not being confused enough, he turns to Matthew 19:24, and reads that it is impossible for his rich uncle to ever enter the kingdom of Heaven.


So, he flips to Matthew 5:20 .... only to learn that since he is not as smart as big time Bible Scholars, he is also doomed.

(Need I go on?)
 
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marks

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Luke 14:26 "No", we don't get to play "explanation" games here. Joe Schmo, who has been told "the Bible means just what whatever the particular passage he reads in his English translation says, does not have the luxury of knowing the actual written words he is reading really don't mean what he understands them to mean.

And, not being confused enough, he turns to Matthew 19:24, and reads that it is impossible for his rich uncle to ever enter the kingdom of Heaven.


So, he flips to Matthew 5:20 .... only to learn that since he is not as smart as big time Bible Scholars, he is also doomed.

(Need I go on?)

Go on like that? Why?

Let's take your first example, Impossible for the rich to enter heaven . . . but don't you want to read further and get the full communication from God? With Him, everything is possible. Village Spared!!

Much love!
Mark
 

Willie T

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Go on like that? Why?

Let's take your first example, Impossible for the rich to enter heaven . . . but don't you want to read further and get the full communication from God? With Him, everything is possible. Village Spared!!

Much love!
Mark
I hoped you would follow that one.

That passage comes right after The Rich Young Ruler scene...…. So, as has happened many times to other people, poor old Joe closes his Bible, thinking he has just been told he has to sell everything he has.

See, try as you may, it still comes back to not being able to rely upon the pat answer that every passage can mean only one thing to all people. (Most "Joes" don't usually read a lot past the point where they have been thoroughly discouraged.)
 
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aspen

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Yes. That is why the average "Joe" should never be studying on his own, with no other Sisters and Brothers to bounce his "discouragement" (or elation) off of for a Reality Check.

Ah-0h

Sounding more Catholic everyday, my brother!
 

stunnedbygrace

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Yes. That is why the average "Joe" should never be studying on his own, with no other Sisters and Brothers to bounce his "discouragement" (or elation) off of for a Reality Check.

I think if the average Joe has the Holy Spirit, he can get by fine. Where men seem to run into the most problems from what I've seen is having a church fill their heads with nonsense. I think if they hadn't rushed out to consult with men right away, they may have been saved some anguish. I don't know, maybe...

You are an example of someone who went to a church that messed you up for a while. I think you would have made greater strides more quickly if you hadn't run across them who messed with you.
 
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Willie T

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I think if the average Joe has the Holy Spirit, he can get by fine. Where men seem to run into the most problems from what I've seen is having a church fill their heads with nonsense. I think if they hadn't rushed out to consult with men right away, they may have been saved some anguish. I don't know, maybe...

You are an example of someone who went to a church that messed you up for a while. I think you would have made greater strides more quickly if you hadn't run across them who messed with you.
I think we just may put too much expectation in that "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" passage. It never says The Holy Spirit is a Seer who will put all the answers in our heads, supernaturally. It says He will "lead" us to truth. And I believe that "leading" is often taking us directly to the teachers and prophets and others that God has given the church for that very purpose... especially to those who devote their lives to study, and write books about their findings.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I don't disagree with what you are saying, except I do believe we have need of no other teacher. I don't think we rely ENOUGH on the Holy Spirit. Sometimes its impatience while waiting that leads us to other men. But I can't deny that He has put books of dead men in my hands and what I read was so timely that it could only have been Him. Letting a man help me. Or helping me through a man. Then again, if I wasn't ready to bear it yet, the words would have gone right over my head. Yep, I'm rambling again.
 

Willie T

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I think if the average Joe has the Holy Spirit, he can get by fine. Where men seem to run into the most problems from what I've seen is having a church fill their heads with nonsense. I think if they hadn't rushed out to consult with men right away, they may have been saved some anguish. I don't know, maybe...

You are an example of someone who went to a church that messed you up for a while. I think you would have made greater strides more quickly if you hadn't run across them who messed with you.
Notice that you used the expression "a church." And I think you are right. Some of us knock the Catholic Church because of their elevation of their esoteric organization to the status of being a god. We protestants often do almost the same thing with the adoration of our particular organizations or leaders. (I think it must be a human trait.)