Lawless Ones subverting the truth in Christ.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
63
UK
Hello Rach,

I noticed your comment, and think these may be verses which someone had in mind.

If He has such mercy and patience towards those who deny him still, why would you think that he would then rush to judge those of us who call him Lord? In fact that whole idea is biblically fallacious.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
 

Sr.Brandon

New Member
Jun 25, 2012
39
1
0
Let's get one thing straight even though Paul was justified rebuking Peter’s conduct at Antioch, where he refused to eat with Gentile Christians in order not to offend certain Jews from Palestine (Gal. 2:11–16). For this Paul rebuked him. Did this demonstrate papal infallibility was non-existent? Not at all. Peter’s actions had to do with matters of discipline, not with issues of faith or morals.
Furthermore, the problem was Peter’s actions, not his teaching. Paul acknowledged that Peter very well knew the correct teaching (Gal. 2:12–13). The problem was that he wasn’t living up to his own teaching. Thus, in this instance, Peter was not doing any teaching; much less was he solemnly defining a matter of faith or morals.
Did you see any where in my post a place where I tried to show error in the teaching of infallibility? I didn't bring that up for very well did I know that catholicism teaches a pope is only infallible in matters of faith and morals alone. At any other time, however, a pope can be a dirty, rotten and immoral as... well, I won't finish that statement.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
Hello Rach,

I noticed your comment, and think these may be verses which someone had in mind.

If He has such mercy and patience towards those who deny him still, why would you think that he would then rush to judge those of us who call him Lord? In fact that whole idea is biblically fallacious.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Hey dragonfly! I suppose it comes down to how one reads this verse. Episkopos was saying that God has 'judged' him now...a vetting that gives him authority to lead the Church...a judging that means he won't be judged later. He may think that 1 Peter backs up that claim, but I disagree. The passage is talking about suffering as a Christian. About trial coming to us for holding to Christ's name. 'Judgment' here is not punitive, however, but purifying and cleansing. The suffering of God’s people refines them (1 Peter 1:6-7). We must expect this during our sanctifying walk in Jesus.
So, I'm not sure if Epi was referring to this verse or not, but I don't believe it gives anyone the right to claim that they have been granted 'authority' over other Christians like they have already stood before the Great White Throne...especially when their other claims don't match what the bible teaches.
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
63
UK
Hey dragonfly! I suppose it comes down to how one reads this verse. Episkopos was saying that God has 'judged' him now...a vetting that gives him authority to lead the Church...a judging that means he won't be judged later. He may think that 1 Peter backs up that claim, but I disagree. The passage is talking about suffering as a Christian. About trial coming to us for holding to Christ's name. 'Judgment' here is not punitive, however, but purifying and cleansing. The suffering of God’s people refines them (1 Peter 1:6-7). We must expect this during our sanctifying walk in Jesus.
So, I'm not sure if Epi was referring to this verse or not, but I don't believe it gives anyone the right to claim that they have been granted 'authority' over other Christians like they have already stood before the Great White Throne...especially when their other claims don't match what the bible teaches.

Hi Rach,

Okay. Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't looked at the Greek of that verse, but I've never heard it expounded that way either.

The judging which I believe Episkopos has in mind, is the one we all should have been through initially, when we realise and accept we are being judged to be 'a sinner' by God. This is brought to our attention by the convicting work of the Holy Spirit when we first hear the gospel with any understanding. (I've put it that way, because anyone coming from a Christian background still has to go through this process, at whatever age it is pressed upon them by the Lord.) The next step is our response to God, which should include whole-hearted repentance from our sinfulness per se, as well of the sins of which we feel particularly convicted.

Repentance marks a change in the direction in our lives. Our relationship with sin has been radically altered by the cleansing of our souls and spirits in His blood, and the washings of His word. Now the Holy Spirit is constantly bringing God's judgments to our attention, and we are constrained to walk in fellowship with Him according to the Spirit's leading, which necessarily brings the mortification of the flesh into practise. Romans 8:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. This represents yet another judgment which has been willingly received through the cross of Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:10

There is more, but I'll leave it at that.

No doubt if Episkopos has a different way of explaining what he meant, he will comment on what I've expressed.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,896
19,471
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Hi Rach,

Okay. Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't looked at the Greek of that verse, but I've never heard it expounded that way either.

The judging which I believe Episkopos has in mind, is the one we all should have been through initially, when we realise and accept we are being judged to be 'a sinner' by God. This is brought to our attention by the convicting work of the Holy Spirit when we first hear the gospel with any understanding. (I've put it that way, because anyone coming from a Christian background still has to go through this process, at whatever age it is pressed upon them by the Lord.) The next step is our response to God, which should include whole-hearted repentance from our sinfulness per se, as well of the sins of which we feel particularly convicted.

Repentance marks a change in the direction in our lives. Our relationship with sin has been radically altered by the cleansing of our souls and spirits in His blood, and the washings of His word. Now the Holy Spirit is constantly bringing God's judgments to our attention, and we are constrained to walk in fellowship with Him according to the Spirit's leading, which necessarily brings the mortification of the flesh into practise. Romans 8:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. This represents yet another judgment which has been willingly received through the cross of Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:10

There is more, but I'll leave it at that.

No doubt if Episkopos has a different way of explaining what he meant, he will comment on what I've expressed.
Greetings Dragonfly!!

A Christian has entered a race according to the purpose of God. We must not forget that there still remains a God who has authored our salvation. We can't just claim the prize for ourselves while ignoring the conditions that God has laid out for those who would live with Him in eternity. There is no back door that leads to life that is outside the jurisdiction of a holy God. . So we must live in a manner that is pleasing to the Father. We can't just avoid God and His commandments.

But many say...we are hiding behind Jesus who DOES please the Father! We claim Christ's righteousness because we want to be saved and we have decided to reject the laws of God! We choose Christ and not the law! These don't understand that Jesus came in order to empower us to be pleasing to the Father through a new creation IN Him. Jesus Christ fulfills the law of God IN us in REALITY. We can't just have an experience with grace and then walk away claiming to be saved forevermore. In order to remain in salvation we must remain in Christ for HE is our salvation. In Him we learn to live in a manner pleasing to ther Father....by FAITH. We go from faith to Faith as we learn to walk in the new man which is in the Spirit.

If He has such mercy and patience towards those who deny him still, why would you think that he would then rush to judge those of us who call him Lord? In fact that whole idea is biblically fallacious.

If it was biblically fallacious then why does Jesus say this...

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


A worker of iniquity is a law breaker.

So we warn those who have such confidence in their own beliefs to consider the true nature of the gospel so as not to be rejected on that day.
 

Sr.Brandon

New Member
Jun 25, 2012
39
1
0
I understand that a standing law that has not been resented, whether in the old or new covenant, is still applicable to us today.
(By the way, when I said, 'standing'' I mean that which is still in effect or that which is in continuance)
However, to say those who abide in Messiah will never ever sin is wrong. I was surprised by Epi's reaction to my earlier post. Not that humility is a bad thing, mind you. After being humbled by knowing how desperately wicked you are, without any hope of getting out of such a despicable state, all you can do is ask for mercy. Throwing yourself at Yahweh's mercy and hoping He will forgive is all we can do, which I have done with fear and trembling. It is only in that broken and repentantive state that He comes to you saying, "I have forgiven you, go and sin no more." It is at that point that a real relationship begins with the everlasting Father. Your goal is to become just like He is because not only is He your King and Savior but also the one you love the most. Through this you start wanting to do the things He likes, having mercy on sinners, keeping His commands, His law, but accidents happen. You don't know Yahweh very well at first and so as in any new relationships you make mistakes that He corrects. You want to do good works, keep His law, love others, forgive others and be merciful, but your sinful nature gets in the way. This He knows very well. It is due to this that John wrote to us, his little children (to a 90 year old we are all little children), that if we happen to sin then we have the Messiah as our advocate. This sounds like good news. Not only does Yahweh forgive in your humility but He doesn't leave you in your desperate state. He makes you his wilderness tabernacle, abiding in you and regenerating you by His presence, empowering you to be his witness and to edify your brothers/sisters, fellow sons/daughters of your adopted daddy (abba).

(Messiah died not just for our sins but the whole world. John however was writing his letter to those who abide in Messiah, his little children when he said, " My little children, I write these things to you so] that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ [the] righteous."
All the verses you, Epi, quote in your post by John are in the context that John was writing to fellow brothers and sisters abiding in Yehushua Messiah and he wrote so that they may not sin. However, if they did sin we have an advocate with the Father, Yehushua the righteous.)

In the scenario I gave earlier, however, throwing yourself at Yahewh's mercy gives only condemnation, no hope of salvation. If we are to never sin again, keep the law perfectly, after we accept the gospel then we are accepting a gospel of condemnation, for, as I pointed out earlier, not even Paul or Peter, the apostles, sinned after pentecost.
Thus, this is obviously not good news to those condemned already. It is more like getting a gift then later someone says, 'oh, that gift was not meant for you'. It is the gift of false hope. Messiah died to save himself and give the rest of us false hope? Does this sound like good news?
I don't think so.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
Hi Rach,

Okay. Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't looked at the Greek of that verse, but I've never heard it expounded that way either.

The judging which I believe Episkopos has in mind, is the one we all should have been through initially, when we realise and accept we are being judged to be 'a sinner' by God. This is brought to our attention by the convicting work of the Holy Spirit when we first hear the gospel with any understanding. (I've put it that way, because anyone coming from a Christian background still has to go through this process, at whatever age it is pressed upon them by the Lord.) The next step is our response to God, which should include whole-hearted repentance from our sinfulness per se, as well of the sins of which we feel particularly convicted.

Repentance marks a change in the direction in our lives. Our relationship with sin has been radically altered by the cleansing of our souls and spirits in His blood, and the washings of His word. Now the Holy Spirit is constantly bringing God's judgments to our attention, and we are constrained to walk in fellowship with Him according to the Spirit's leading, which necessarily brings the mortification of the flesh into practise. Romans 8:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. This represents yet another judgment which has been willingly received through the cross of Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:10

There is more, but I'll leave it at that.

No doubt if Episkopos has a different way of explaining what he meant, he will comment on what I've expressed.


I agree with all of this! And it's very well put too!
My problem is, I'm not so sure this is what Epi has in mind at all....

If it was biblically fallacious then why does Jesus say this...

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This verse is talking about those who were never truly saved in the first place. They may have attended Church, may have claimed to be a Christian, may have even done a pretty good job at legalism in following the laws...but they were never truly regenerated by grace.
So, I don't believe this has anything to do with Christians, God's judging them, or what manner of life they need to live. The bible does speak plenty as to those things, but this verse is not one of them.

A worker of iniquity is a law breaker.

So we warn those who have such confidence in their own beliefs to consider the true nature of the gospel so as not to be rejected on that day.

You warn against people who have 'confidence in their own beliefs', but then advocate confidence in ones own actions. How is that better?

But many say...we are hiding behind Jesus who DOES please the Father! We claim Christ's righteousness because we want to be saved and we have decided to reject the laws of God! We choose Christ and not the law!

Hiding behind Jesus? Nay...rejoicing in Him, praising Him, giving glory to Him because it is all Him, and none us, that has resulted in our salvation.

Let me ask you a question. How do you explain all the verses that are so very, very clear that salvation...and I'm talking salvation here, not sanctification...comes from Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone? That our works has absolutely nothing to do with it..at all...in fact our 'works' are nothing but the most offensive deeds to God...in regards to being worthy of justification.
How do you explain away all those very clear verses? And I must be clear here...I'm not asking you to provide me with other verses you think 'contradict' these ones...I'm asking how you deal with and 'justify' your belief, with these verses? And if you're not sure which verses I'm talking about, please, let me know and I'll provide them for you...but I do believe you are aware of the ones I mean.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,896
19,471
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I understand that a standing law that has not been resented, whether in the old or new covenant, is still applicable to us today.
(By the way, when I said, 'standing'' I mean that which is still in effect or that which is in continuance)
However, to say those who abide in Messiah will never ever sin is wrong. I was surprised by Epi's reaction to my earlier post. Not that humility is a bad thing, mind you. After being humbled by knowing how desperately wicked you are, without any hope of getting out of such a despicable state, all you can do is ask for mercy. Throwing yourself at Yahweh's mercy and hoping He will forgive is all we can do, which I have done with fear and trembling. It is only in that broken and repentantive state that He comes to you saying, "I have forgiven you, go and sin no more." It is at that point that a real relationship begins with the everlasting Father. Your goal is to become just like He is because not only is He your King and Savior but also the one you love the most. Through this you start wanting to do the things He likes, having mercy on sinners, keeping His commands, His law, but accidents happen. You don't know Yahweh very well at first and so as in any new relationships you make mistakes that He corrects. You want to do good works, keep His law, love others, forgive others and be merciful, but your sinful nature gets in the way. This He knows very well. It is due to this that John wrote to us, his little children (to a 90 year old we are all little children), that if we happen to sin then we have the Messiah as our advocate. This sounds like good news. Not only does Yahweh forgive in your humility but He doesn't leave you in your desperate state. He makes you his wilderness tabernacle, abiding in you and regenerating you by His presence, empowering you to be his witness and to edify your brothers/sisters, fellow sons/daughters of your adopted daddy (abba).

(Messiah died not just for our sins but the whole world. John however was writing his letter to those who abide in Messiah, his little children when he said, " My little children, I write these things to you so] that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ [the] righteous."
All the verses you, Epi, quote in your post by John are in the context that John was writing to fellow brothers and sisters abiding in Yehushua Messiah and he wrote so that they may not sin. However, if they did sin we have an advocate with the Father, Yehushua the righteous.)

In the scenario I gave earlier, however, throwing yourself at Yahewh's mercy gives only condemnation, no hope of salvation. If we are to never sin again, keep the law perfectly, after we accept the gospel then we are accepting a gospel of condemnation, for, as I pointed out earlier, not even Paul or Peter, the apostles, sinned after pentecost.
Thus, this is obviously not good news to those condemned already. It is more like getting a gift then later someone says, 'oh, that gift was not meant for you'. It is the gift of false hope. Messiah died to save himself and give the rest of us false hope? Does this sound like good news?
I don't think so.

It is good news depending on what part of us is listening to it. The carnal old nature must die....THEN the new man is edified into a full stature in Christ. So you must go though the fire first. THEN comes life. To those who just want an easy feel good message that maintains their powerlessness and status quo...there is always the modern feel good gospel. :( The Comforter comes to us after the tearing down of our old structures we cling so desperately to.

But those who are Christ's will be pulled down before they can be built up anew according to a new creation. Jesus Christ did NOT die to exalt Adam. He came to show us a new and living WAY in Him. Do we trust that as we give up our lives there is another and better one that will kick in????

I agree with all of this! And it's very well put too!
My problem is, I'm not so sure this is what Epi has in mind at all....



This verse is talking about those who were never truly saved in the first place. They may have attended Church, may have claimed to be a Christian, may have even done a pretty good job at legalism in following the laws...but they were never truly regenerated by grace.
So, I don't believe this has anything to do with Christians, God's judging them, or what manner of life they need to live. The bible does speak plenty as to those things, but this verse is not one of them.



You warn against people who have 'confidence in their own beliefs', but then advocate confidence in ones own actions. How is that better?



Hiding behind Jesus? Nay...rejoicing in Him, praising Him, giving glory to Him because it is all Him, and none us, that has resulted in our salvation.

Let me ask you a question. How do you explain all the verses that are so very, very clear that salvation...and I'm talking salvation here, not sanctification...comes from Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone? That our works has absolutely nothing to do with it..at all...in fact our 'works' are nothing but the most offensive deeds to God...in regards to being worthy of justification.
How do you explain away all those very clear verses? And I must be clear here...I'm not asking you to provide me with other verses you think 'contradict' these ones...I'm asking how you deal with and 'justify' your belief, with these verses? And if you're not sure which verses I'm talking about, please, let me know and I'll provide them for you...but I do believe you are aware of the ones I mean.

How can you tell that there is electricity in a building. If you have a hair dryer (that works ;) )you can plug it in and see very easily. So it is with Christ. When we are walking in the Spirit there is power from heaven. Of course there are differing degrees of power depending on how close we are or how deeply we are in relationship with God. But there will BE power. The law reveals that power. The law is like a hair dryer. So we don't need to have endless wranglings about what it means to be in Christ. The bible makes it very clear.

When Paul says...see if you have Christ in you or else you be a reprobate...he is speaking to the honest ones who treat the law as a hairdryer. Without prejudice and avoidance. No need to panic. If we lack this presence and power then we simply seek the Lord for it. All this thought of OH MY I'm going to hell now...is just the kind of carnal reasoning that makes people hide behind lies and half-truths. If we would just come to the light we could all get on with life in the kingdom.

Many have actually no experience with what I'm talking about. But that is not such a big deal. We are still alive if we are typing here. We simply continue our journey keeping the standard of God in mind. The only part of us that panics when the truth is revealed is the part that needs to die anyway.


This verse is talking about those who were never truly saved in the first place.

This is erroneous. It is this type of reasoning that keeps people from appreciating the seriousness of having to be pleasing to God. A warning is just that.It is wise to heed that warning. Why can't so many see that those who say Lord Lord and prophesy and praise God ARE Christians. The warning is not about what people think of themselves...but what God says. There is this thing called the fear of the Lord. It is equated with wisdom in the bible.

We employ prejudice before we are broken by God. Even Peter said...NEVER Lord Not I!!!! But we ALL are included in the warning. It is those who deny it that are guilty. Always!!!! So the ones who take the warning to heart then TURN from their own prejudice and finger pointing and take the justice of God to heart. God has NO favourites.

The whole idea of private ownership comes from Mammon. People are falsely taught that they own salvation because of their beliefs. This is wrong. It is taking something of God and stealing it for men. Like Prometheus who stole fire from the gods in the legend.

We can never OWN salvation. The Holy Spirit is never ours. The righteousness of God is HIS never ours. So we can never claim that His righteousness is now owned by us. There is no such thing as a privately owned eternal salvation . I don't expect many to understand this. The present conditioning is far too all-pervasive to see things from the perspective of God.

But God and His holiness are not the enemy. God is to be embraced IN His holiness. So men have it all backwards. We are to be holy JUST AS the Father is holy. The wise fear and turn to Christ.
 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
Romans 3:31 Do we therefore through faith destroy the Law? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law.
 

rand

New Member
Sep 10, 2012
132
12
0
Until a few years ago, I was a Christian and I had many sins. Some, I tryed to fight with my own might, I prayed for God to deliver me, I even prayed for God to take away my right to sin. I couldn't stop. Oh, I'd do fine for a while, but it would always come back. I was so frustrated. Then God gave me a revelation of grace. I know that sounds stupid to those of you who haven't gotten that revelation yet, but it's real. That's why I left my church, because I had been in this church 30+ years and they never taught me this and it was so real and so obvious.

Now with this new revelation of grace, I don't struggle with sin anymore. Do I commit acts that would be considered sin? Of course, i do. But like Paul says it's not me that does these things I don't want to do, it's the sin inside me that does them.

Think of it this way: 2 boys walking down the street and pass by a glass greenhouse. They think nothing of it and keep walking. A little further down the road they pass another glass, greenhouse and this one has a sign on it saying do not throw rocks. Which one do you think the boys are more tempted to through rocks at? Romans 7:5 says the passion for sin is aroused by the law. 1 Cor 15:56 tells us that the strength of sin is the law. But the real kicker--for me anyway--was when I found Titus 2:11 which says it's grace that teaches us to say no to ungodliness.

We are not under the law, so how can you break a law that isn't your law. You can't. Teaching the law only leads a person to be self-rightous (phil 3:9) if they THINK they are doing a good job at keeping the law, and condemned if they think they are not. while the law teaches us to whatch ourself, and watch our behavior, our words. Grace teaches us to keep looking at Christ, no matter what.

In the old testament when the person would bring the sacrifial animal to the preist, the priest would examine the animal to see if it was perfect. They didn't examine the person bringing the animal. Jesus is our sacrifice and He IS PERFECT--The high priest is not even looking at us, He is looking a Jesus. If we are in Christ, He sees us as perfect too. Not because of who we are, or what we have or have not done, but because of what Jesus has done. Our sins went onto Jesus, the same way His righteousness went on to us. He didn't deserve our punishment and we didn't deserve His righteousness. But He gave us righteousness to all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

This is the Gospel.

Repent means to change your way of thinking. It was most always told to the Jews who were under the law, They needed to get a way from the law as a means of righteousness and to know that their only hope of justification is by His grace. It is foolishness for us to compare our self with each other (and to judge each other) because we all miss the mark by so far it's crazy. The Law actually requires little or no faith which is why it's so hard for the Jews accept the grace which takes only faith. Think about it. The two people Jesus said had great faith had one thing in common. What was it? Neither were Jewish, neither were under the law.

Also another point brought up in this topic was 1 John, 2 John. John was talking to unbelievers who are still responsible for their own sins. He says that anyone born of God can not sin. Why? Because we are no longer under the law, but under Jesus' covering. If it's against the law to turn right on red in your home state, but it's not against the law in the state you're diving in now and you turn right on red did you break the law? No. You are not in the realm of that law any more.

The law and grace do not mix. LIke new wine in old wineskins. By mixing the two, you end up with neither. At the very least you will end up confused and saying things like God is good but He does put sickness on people, or He kills people, or He punishes His children by putting them in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives. That's not a Good God, that's confusion. We need to be able to seperate the Old covenant from the New or we will always be confused. God is good. in every since of the word He is good.

However, faith without works is dead. If you have faith you will have works. But just because you have works does not mean you have faith. I have met many athiest who do many great deeds for their fellow man. If you love me you will keep my commands--but don't stop there, read on. ...and my command is this, that you love one another.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dragonfly

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
Rand you do know that Episkopos and Catholics are not under the Law.
Only people who want to be under Judaism are under the Law and them only, not any Christian is under the Law at all. but the Law is not done away with, as Jesus Christ him self said so. as he came to fulfill the Law.
All this ranting about the Law being dismissed by so called Christians is the work of Satan.
God did not make a mistake bringing down the commandments at all and Jesus Christ put them in there proper place.
 

rand

New Member
Sep 10, 2012
132
12
0
The law is not done away with, I agree with you there Mr Rosenberger. It is still a very valid covenant and there is still a curse for those who are trying to be justified by the law. That is why Paul had such harsh words for the Galatians, not for sins that they were commiting (like the Corinthians were) but because they were re-introducing the law into the gospel and Paul had to stop it head-on. However, over the past 2000 years, i can see it back in the teachings of the church.

I don't think God is holding anyone under the law, but I think many of us are keeping ourselves under the law without even realizing it, and that is a right God has given us. We still teach in our churches to try harder to stop sinning. If a man THINKS he's doing a good job of not sinning, then he will THINK he has little to be forgiven. On the other hand if a man knows he stinks at keeping the law, he will be self-condemned. In either case, these men are looking at themselves way too much. They should be looking at Jesus only just like the serpent Moses put on a Pole and lifted up (a picture of the cross). Always look to the cross. If you want to know how God feels about sin--look at the cross. If you want to know how God feels about you--look at the cross. Look to the cross and live. When you look at yourself, you begin to die.

All you have to do to be saved is believe in Christ, that's it. You don't have to do or be or know anything else, anything added to Christ is legalism (Law). Under the old covenant a person had to earn favor (or blessings) from God. Under grace, it's freely given. How many Christians are taught that today? My guess is that most believe the same way they did under the old covenant. Most non-believers believe the same thing. Under grace we are promised the blessings of Abraham.

So, yes, I think they are still under the law to some degree, any way. Knowing what the Bible says about the law, it will kill your faith, it will rob you of peace, it will make you selfrighteous, it will cause you to condemn yourself, and if you don't keep it perfectly you will be under the curse (see Deut 28 for a list of the curses). How many Christians suffer these things? Way too many--it's because they don't know better--lack of knowledge
 
  • Like
Reactions: dragonfly

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
The law is not done away with, I agree with you there Mr Rosenberger. It is still a very valid covenant and there is still a curse for those who are trying to be justified by the law. That is why Paul had such harsh words for the Galatians, not for sins that they were commiting (like the Corinthians were) but because they were re-introducing the law into the gospel and Paul had to stop it head-on. However, over the past 2000 years, i can see it back in the teachings of the church.

I don't think God is holding anyone under the law, but I think many of us are keeping ourselves under the law without even realizing it, and that is a right God has given us. We still teach in our churches to try harder to stop sinning. If a man THINKS he's doing a good job of not sinning, then he will THINK he has little to be forgiven. On the other hand if a man knows he stinks at keeping the law, he will be self-condemned. In either case, these men are looking at themselves way too much. They should be looking at Jesus only just like the serpent Moses put on a Pole and lifted up (a picture of the cross). Always look to the cross. If you want to know how God feels about sin--look at the cross. If you want to know how God feels about you--look at the cross. Look to the cross and live. When you look at yourself, you begin to die.

All you have to do to be saved is believe in Christ, that's it. You don't have to do or be or know anything else, anything added to Christ is legalism (Law). Under the old covenant a person had to earn favor (or blessings) from God. Under grace, it's freely given. How many Christians are taught that today? My guess is that most believe the same way they did under the old covenant. Most non-believers believe the same thing. Under grace we are promised the blessings of Abraham.

So, yes, I think they are still under the law to some degree, any way. Knowing what the Bible says about the law, it will kill your faith, it will rob you of peace, it will make you selfrighteous, it will cause you to condemn yourself, and if you don't keep it perfectly you will be under the curse (see Deut 28 for a list of the curses). How many Christians suffer these things? Way too many--it's because they don't know better--lack of knowledge
I once just believed in Christ to and did not know much but thank God i am not stuck back there or my faith would of been like that of the parable of the sower. like many their faith just fades away and old mate Satan is back at the wheel.
Jesus gave two commandments above all and in that light we can see the Law in it's true position as it's still there brighter then ever. we can't live up to them all the time but that's no reason to lower them. you see God gave them and it's our Christian duty to respect them. we don't get tied up in them because of the two Christ put above them and as Christians this guides us in there light always.
 

rand

New Member
Sep 10, 2012
132
12
0
So now you don't believe just in Christ? Only Christ is worthy and you too? Is that what you're saying? Maybe I misunderstand your opening sentence. The law's true postiion is to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:24). The law came by Moses and grace and truth came by Jesus. The Law is one covenant and grace is the new and better covenant. You can never live up to them, you can make youself think you can, but you can't. The good news is that you don't even have to try because you are dead to the law and no longer responible for it or to it. Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and sin is not taken into account when there is no law (Romans 5:13) and sin apart from the law is dead (Romans 7:7) Galatians 3:10 says all who rely on observing the law are under a curse. Take a look at Deut chpter 28 and see if you have any of the curses of the law in you're life. I don't.

I am not lowering the law. The law is perfect, holy, and good. That's why it doesn't work for us, because we are not perfect, holy or good. That's why God nailed it to the cross, disarming the enemy of his power over us. This is what it means to rightly divide the word of truth between Old covenant teaching and new covenant teaching. This is the old wine skin and new wine, this is cold or hot and mixing the two you get lukewarm. This is the narrow gate that so few people (even Christians) find.

at the top of the mount of transfiguration, Jesus took Peter (stone = tablets= law), James (replace), and John (grace) (the law has been replaced by grace) and when moses showed up Peter wanted to build a shelter for Jesus and Moses and Elijah, sudenly they disappeared and only Jesus was left and then God said, 'this is my son, listen to Him.' Moses represents the law, and Elijah represents the prophets. Peter was trying to place all three on the same level, but the Father would have none of that.

I really think you ought to pray about this and ask Him to show you the truth that He died to give you. The bigest obstacle to finding the truth is to think you already have it.

The good news is that God is not mad at you, He's not waitin up there to punish you when you mess up. He loves you more than you can even know. And He wants you to have that easy and light life that Jesus said you can have in Him.

I used to think like you do--like most Christians do, but now I am more alive than I've ever been even after almost 40 years as a Christian. I've got pastors in my family (with doctorates) and they don't buy this grace stuff either, but Grace taught me to see myself as God sees me, and I know I am a Child of the most High God. I am Royalty. It's true, you will act like who you think you are. That's why we should renew our mind.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
In either case, these men are looking at themselves way too much. They should be looking at Jesus only just like the serpent Moses put on a Pole and lifted up (a picture of the cross). Always look to the cross. If you want to know how God feels about sin--look at the cross. If you want to know how God feels about you--look at the cross. Look to the cross and live. When you look at yourself, you begin to die.

Nice....very, very nice!

The thing with the law is this....it allows a measure of glory to be given to oneself..."I kept it, yay to me!" This is not what the gospel of grace teaches...it teaches that ALL glory is to be given to Jesus...as you say, he was the one living the perfect life...he was the one upon the cross, he was the one who rose from the dead. It's all him...from, for and because of. We shouldn't even enter into it, apart from falling on our knees in thanks, repentance and love.
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
I believe the grace of God has been perverted, today. God's grace does not permit us to practice sin, as carnal doctrines teach, today: "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID ...Shall we continue in sin (continue practicing sin) that grace may abound? GOD FORBID. How shall we that are dead to sin (this is not figurative), live any longer therein? But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin (not figurative), ye became the servants of righteousness" (Rom. 6:15, 1, 2, 17, 18).

Our obedience to the Word of God and the Spirit of God perfects us in the God-kind of love and righteousness: BUT WHOSO KEEPETH HIS WORD, IN HIM VERILY IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED; HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE ARE IN HIM. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked" (1 John 2:5,6).

1 John 2:5,6 is the Body of Christ which has been perfected in love. If Jesus commands us to love one another with the same love with which He loved us, WOULD HE NOT EXPECT US TO DO IT? This is the very same love that causes you to love your neighbor as yourself.

Many people find security in the works they do for God. They sincerely believe if they do works for God, it is all right to practice sin (breaking God's laws). Of course they are not overtly thinking this, it is very subtle. Their "doctrine" teaches them that the grace they are under does not require them to stop sinning, because their doctrine tells them that grace did not release them from the power of sin, only from the penalty of sin. This is the false security that has made the church a habitation of demons and causes people to believe and say, "peace, peace when there is no peace". The Word of God teaches just the opposite. We no longer present the members of our body as slaves to impurity and lawlessness (to practice sin);

Rom 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Why is Romans 6:6-7 not figurative?

Because the Holy Spirit goes on to command (commandment of Jesus) us to not let sin reign in our mortal body. And commands us to not yield our members to sin.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Now, why would God command us in this way if it is impossible, if it is only figurative talk and not based on reality?


Because the true definition of grace is that SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU ANYMORE. This is the Gospel (Good News).


Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful woks. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:22, 23). "Whosoever commiteth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

We continue to break the law if we continue to practice sin. Paul said, "But if , while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? GOD FORBID. For if I build again the things which I destroyed (the curse flesh nature), I make myself (still) a transgressor (still walking under the judgment of the law) (Gal. 2:17,18).

Axehead
 
  • Like
Reactions: dragonfly

rand

New Member
Sep 10, 2012
132
12
0
Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Are you now trying to finish in the flesh what you started in Faith? Paul was not getting onto them for sins, he was getting onto them because they were trying to mix in a little law with grace. Sin is transgression of the law, but we are not under the law, we are under grace. So, how can we break a law that we don't have? We can't. All things are permissable but not all things are benifical. Sin, apart from the law is dead (Romans 7:7). Sin is not counted against us when there is no law (Romans 5:13).

The law was never given to anyone but the Jews. God didn't even want to give it to them, but because of their pride (all that God says we can do--yeah right) He gave them the law. Under the Law covenant, they didn't have any use for faith, they just obeyed. That is why the only two people that Jesus said had great faith had one thing in common--they were non-Jewish. They were not under the law so faith came easier to them.

Look at the time they wandered thru the wilderness. All their complaining and grubeling against God and He still kept blessing them. Until, that is, the Law was given, then they started dieing. The law is the ministry of death (2 Cor 3:6-11)

Yes, we should still guard our hearts and minds, and yes we should still strive for perfection. Not so that He will be pleased with us, if we are in Christ He is pleased with us. Not so that He will love us, He already loves us more than we can know. And not so that we will be in right-standing (righteousness) before Him because that only comes from faith in Christ. Our works will justify us before man, and to be justifed before man is so important if we want to witness to them. If they do not respect us, they will not want our God. If all we do, we do out of love for them, that they will want to be a part of. That is what they will respond to.

I don't know how to make it any plainer.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Speak without a religious unreality. Try it. :)

If you speak to a deluded person who has been brainwashed or conditioned by a religious dogma...there is no reasoning in reality with them. I see most evangelicals as no different than Jehovah's witnesses. Same delusions...what people will do in order to feel like they're eternally saved.

Why does unreality ALWAYS accompany this attribute of an eternal security?

Because it is not in the bible...it is a made up desire of sinfull men to save their own skins. So to grab hold of this man made doctrine will always cause men to lose touch with reality.
Eternal security just as trinity is not in the Bible, but I believe both to be valid principles. The Bible is very specific about believers being God's workmanship. If it is God begins a work shall He not finish? Shall His word go out void? Never.

When it comes to matters of obedience it is for us to love and keep faith. If it is we are not walking in the Spirit it is evident of our fruit, yet we are not justified in our actions rather in our faith. Without faith there can be no righteous actions; these righteous actions are attributed to God. Indeed Abraham was justified by both, being faith and works, but without faith his actions would have been different.
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Are you now trying to finish in the flesh what you started in Faith? Paul was not getting onto them for sins, he was getting onto them because they were trying to mix in a little law with grace.

Actually, trying to perfect themselves by the law is sinning and falling from grace.

Gal_2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

James was writing to Christians about something similar to what Peter was doing.
Jas_2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced (convicted, admonished) of the law as transgressors.


So, they had actually fallen from grace and put themselves back under the law (walking in the flesh).

Paul characterizes the problem as being “removed from Him that called you”

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

We also see a similar statement in Gal 5:8.
This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Sin is transgression of the law, but we are not under the law, we are under grace. So, how can we break a law that we don't have?

You’re under grace as long as you stay under grace. Obviously, Galatians shows us that you can decide to remove yourself from grace. You break the law when you put yourself back under it by walking in the flesh. You stop fulfilling the law when you stop walking in the Spirit.

All things are permissable but not all things are benifical.

Sin is never permissable. Perfecting ourselves in the flesh by keeping the law is not permissable. One will fall from grace and remove themselves from “Him that called you”.

Sin, apart from the law is dead (Romans 7:7).

I don’t know what kind of a statement that is and not sure you meant to write it? You are saying if someone sins apart from the law the sin is dead? What?

Sin is not counted against us when there is no law (Romans 5:13).

But there is law today, isn’t there. The Law has not died. So, you cannot tell people that sin is not counted against them because there is no law. If you continually walk in the flesh you will come face to face with the law and the curses of the law real quick.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever (that means you or me) committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

When you start walking in the flesh (under the law) you will be judged by the law and you also put yourself back under the curses of the law. For the Law is no law at all if it has no penalty/curses. No such thing as a law without penalties.

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The Law still exists and if you don’t want to be judged by it then don’t put yourself under it (sin) by trying to perfect in the flesh (by the law) what the Spirit has started in your life.

And here is the law that James was talking about in James 2:9 (that Christians were transgressing).
Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.


The law was never given to anyone but the Jews. God didn't even want to give it to them, but because of their pride (all that God says we can do--yeah right) He gave them the law.

It was the purpose of God to bring the law. Paul tells in various ways why the law was given:

Gal_3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal_3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

First of all, "Law" can be any “moral” rule or regulation that one decides to keep to make himself righteous before God INSTEAD OF/IN PLACE of walking in the Spirit. Thus, perfecting ourselves in the FLESH. You can seek to perfect yourself in the flesh by a law of your very own making, even.

Under the Law covenant, they didn't have any use for faith, they just obeyed.

The people did not seem to have any use for faith that is true, but God was certainly looking for it, wasn’t He? But, I think you are saying there was no need for those under the law to have faith and God would not agree with that statement.

Deu_32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very forward (rebellious) generation, children in whom is no faith.

God was not happy with His people BECAUSE they had NO FAITH. I think you know what the implication of that statement is. He was looking for and expecting faith. Why hide your face from someone and be wroth with them if they could not have faith to begin with. That would not be fair-minded of God. So, obviously He knew they could have faith. But they were rebellious.

Because of that one false premise I can't respond to the rest of your post which is built on that premise. Please reconsider that you think God was not looking for any faith from those under the law.

Axehead

Eternal security just as trinity is not in the Bible, but I believe both to be valid principles. The Bible is very specific about believers being God's workmanship. If it is God begins a work shall He not finish? Shall His word go out void? Never.

When it comes to matters of obedience it is for us to love and keep faith. If it is we are not walking in the Spirit it is evident of our fruit, yet we are not justified in our actions rather in our faith. Without faith there can be no righteous actions; these righteous actions are attributed to God. Indeed Abraham was justified by both, being faith and works, but without faith his actions would have been different.


What many people fail to understand is that God certainly knows that the walk of faith is fraught with many dangers, toils and snares. It has it's measure of discouragement and that is why He is always encouraging those who are following Him. So, you will see many statements of encouragement such as "...began a good work in you and He will finish it" or "...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us"

", but when one turns away from Christ, there are also warnings:

Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Axehead
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Axehead,

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

You speak of those who were/are never saved by effectual grace through true belief. I speak of those God foreknew and predestined for His purpose. In the likes of these salvation is as guaranteed as the good deposit that is in them. In these faith is life and to live is to have faith. To live is to Christ. To Christ is to love God and His creation but not this world.

God warns us through the scriptures so that we are assured who we are in Him, we have not fallen away. The falling back in the specific Hebrews passage you cite gives warning to not go (draw) back to Judaism and the Law.

Many warnings are of losing faith. Faith is the basis of our salvation and God's warnings help the faithful, strengthening and convicting them. Those who are not of God will ultimately fail in heeding to the warnings given. Those saved are saved in a process of salvation that results in glorification, all glory be to Jesus Christ for His name sake. Not that we are glorified in these bodies, but we are made anew in the twinkling of an eye, be it we must be born again before we can be counted as sons of God.

1 Cor 6

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.
14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.