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Let’S Take A Look At The 4 Different Baptisms

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by John Zain, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    Where is the confusion?

    You can't be a member of Christ's body unless one is baptized by the Spirit, yet we tell brothers and sisters they need the Holy Spirit baptism?:

    John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

    Acts 2:38 - Repent...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you (the Jews) and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.


    Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

    I Corinthians 12:13 - "For by one Spirit we were all BAPTIZED (emphasis mine) into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all be made to drink one Spirit."

    Ephesians 4:4 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, ONE baptism...

    So Jesus said the Spirit would dwell in the apostles. Peter tells the Jews the promise of the Spirit (based on the OT) is for they and their children and ALL who are far off (later they see the Spirit is given to the Gentiles as well).

    Paul says if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he his not a part of Christ.
    Paul tells the Corinthians that we were all BAPTIZED into the body of Christ by the Spirit.
    Paul later tells the Ephesians that there is ONE Baptism (yet we say there are two).

    So which is the baptism of the Spirit, the first one or the second one you said is the spirit coming "upon" a person. Paul made no distinction.

    And what tongues did the apostles speak? Luke is clear in Acts they were speaking in other KNOWN tongues/languages, langauges the Jews from the Diaspora would have recognized because it was their native languages (although all possibly knew Greek/Hebrew)

    Acts 2:5 - And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from EVERY NATION under heaven.

    Acts 9:8-11 - And how is that we hear each in our language (dialect) in which WE WERE BORN? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs - we hear them SPEAKING in our own tongues (languages/dialects) the wonderful works of God?


    Since we point to this incident as the baptism speaking with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, should we not be speaking in tongues as the apostles spoke?
     
  2. religusnut

    religusnut New Member

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    PG go back and read Acts and see how many times the question is asked have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?
    Salvation always comes first then the infilling of the Holy Spirit second. Being saved and Baptized with the Spirit are not the same thing.
     
  3. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    So why do you get to decide that water baptism is just symbolic? Jesus appears to disagree with you - I am not sure He could be any clearer when He says that it is necessary in order to enter Heaven.
     
  4. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    I have read it nut. I attend a Pentecostal church. My wife even says she speaks in tongues.

    I can think of only one instance of salvation, then the Holy Spirit coming upon them.

    That is with the Samaritans and tongues is not mentioned when they receive the Holy Ghost through the laying on of the apostles' hands.

    Acts 19 is where Paul is dealing with disciples of John the Baptist. Those men were NOT saved when Paul was speaking to them.
    Luke is clear about that. Those men had not even received Jesus Christ, so Paul preached Jesus Christ to them.

    Acts 19:2 Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    The next verse is very clear.

    "And he (Paul) said unto them, Unto what then were you BAPTIZED? And they said, Unto JOHN'S BAPTISM."

    What was John's baptism? It was to prepare men for Christ's coming, as the scripture says in Malachi and elsewhere.

    Luke 3:3 - And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Luke 2:16 - John answered them saying, I baptize with water, but there is one mightier than I COMING...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire...

    Luke includes fire as well (I had not seen this earlier), but the fire is for judgement as well.


    John's baptism was preparatory. These men were still in the preparatory stage when Paul met them. Paul tells them Christ, what John had preached, had come to fulfillment:

    Acts 19:4 - Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people that they should believe on him which SHOULD COME after him, that is CHRIST JESUS
    Acts 19:5 - When they heard this (being that Christ had come) they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    It was then that they spoke with tongues and prophesied, but it is after Paul laid hands on them.

    Like I said earlier, if we say today that one must speak in tongues (although the Bible never says one MUST speak in tongues), then shouldn't we be speaking in tongues (i.e. known languages) like the apostles did on the Day of Pentecost?
     
  5. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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  6. Surf Rider

    Surf Rider New Member

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    so for those before that post (almost 2000 years of believers) and those who never have the chance of reading that post, is there no way of understanding?

    seems to be an interesting statement that you made.

    Scripture was given that we might be complete and lacking nothing, fully furnished for good works.

    Don't see any statement in scripture that we also need to read someone's post on any given topic in order to have understanding, for the scriptures state that it is the Spirit, God, who opens the eyes for spiritual understanding. Ask, and he will not rebuke, but give liberally -- without needing some person to enlighten us.

    Or did you intend something else with that statement?

    I hope so. If so, what was it?

    thanks
     
  7. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    Perhaps you haven't realized the value of teaching.
    How is the gospel believed around the world?
    First it must be presented ... then it can be believed.
    Someone explains it, someone else believes it.
    But, it's all by revelation. The Holy Spirit has to reveal spiritual Truth.
    Just like the Trinity(*), the understanding of this topic is by revelation.
    I've organized it and explained it so others can get the revelation of it.

    (*) There are 80+ verses revealing to me that ...
    Jesus is God, is equal to the Father, is the Creator, is the Giver of eternal life, etc. etc.
    BUT there are also many "Christians" who can ONLY say, "I believe Jesus is the Son of God".
    Not only that, but they don't even realize that it's only a title or name.
    Father God never procreated any offspring! Dah.
     
  8. religusnut

    religusnut New Member

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    John I understand that and you understand that but I see very few that do. The only way that a person can learn anything deeper spiritually is if the Holy Spirit reveals it to them. if they do not even believe that there is a Holy Spirit it makes for a long laborious argumentative time of learning. one has to have eyes to see and ears to hear.
     
  9. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    To add my two cents, I just wanted to say I agree with your understanding on this topic in every post.
    I don't want to derail the topic but I wanted to say something about the chaff, perhaps it is the working out of your salvation with fear and trembling. Phil 2:12-13 The putting off of the old man to get to the meat of the grain. Or the ending of the old covenant which was but a reflection of the new, old and new wine skins, our sins He remembers no more ect. These are just open thoughts so don't hold my feet to the fire. The parable of the tares is different, I did a study on tares and discovered that you can not tell the difference between wheat and tares until they are mature.

    The chaff is actually the shell covering the seed. But you have drawn my interest in what John said.
    Like I said just my two cents, I enjoy John Zain's comments as well.
     
  10. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    John,
    I couldn't open this link. Please link it again.

    Btw, I am enjoying the civility of the discussion.
     
  11. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    Let's try it again.
    But it's on page 2 of this sub-Forum under the name of
    The Baptism with the Holy Spirit (A Scriptural Study)

    http://www.christian...riptural-study/
     
  12. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger New Member

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    Interesting thread, with some very interesting opinions.

    Thumbs up to pgfinest, who I believe has pointed out some good points.

    Concerning this post, I would like to suggest that because Nicodemus was speaking of physical birth, does not necessarily mean that Christ's reply contrasted physical and spiritual birth with the phrase "born of water and spirit."

    I think it unlikely that Jesus would have to include physical birth as a requirement for entering the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus would not have supposed that somebody who had not been born physically would have been able to enter...see what I mean?

    If physical birth were one of the requirements, would that mean that all babies that die before birth, before the "water breaks" (and that is where the correlation is made, in our cultural view, of this referring to water), will not see the kingdom of God?

    So as a conversation piece, I will offer my view of being born of "water and spirit," just as a means of entering the conversation.


    Ephesians 5:25-26 (King James Version)




    [sup]25[/sup]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [sup]26[/sup]That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,


    How is one saved? How do we receive the faith through which we are saved by? Romans 10:17 (KJV)



    John 15:3 (King James Version)


    [sup]3[/sup]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    Purification, before and after salvation is accomplished through the word of God. Salvation apart from the word of God in an impossibility. Cleansing from sin apart from the word of God is also an impossibility.




    1 Peter 1:23 (King James Version)


    [sup]23[/sup]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.





    Titus 3:3-7 (King James Version)





    [sup]3[/sup]For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

    [sup]4[/sup]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

    [sup]5[/sup]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    [sup]6[/sup]Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [sup]7[/sup]That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Note especially:

    [sup]5[/sup]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Water is symbolic of purification, of cleansing, and here we see that cleansing is tied to the new birth. We are cleansed, reborn, renewed...by the Holy Ghost.


    John 4:14 (King James Version)


    [sup]14[/sup]But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    Water is also used to signify life, and eternal life.

    The woman at the well mistook Jesus' words as referring to something physical, as opposed to the spiritual meaning He intended. She thought she could fill a bucket with the living water, but there is only one vessel which will hold, and, in fact, be filled with that living water...and that would be us.

    Getting back to John 3.




    John 3:3-6 (King James Version)




    [sup]3[/sup]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    [sup]4[/sup]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    [sup]5[/sup]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [sup]6[/sup]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Even as a previous poster pointed out that being baptised with spirit and fire contrast salvation and judgement, even here the contrast is physical and spiritual, but that does not necessarily mean that of water and spirit equals flesh versus spirit.

    The contrary seems to be a logical conclusion, because Jesus does not say, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of flesh and born of the Spirit is..."

    Again, being born physically is a given. So why jump to the conclusion that being born of water is physical birth? Was there an Hebrew colloquialism, "when the water breaks" back then?

    I myself see that being born again, which is what the Lord is speaking of, includes both "water and spirit," and speaks of the cleansing which is associated with the promise of salvation in the New Covenant. Here is an old Testament passage that describes the new birth perfectly:





    Ezekiel 36:22-27 (King James Version)




    [sup]22[/sup]Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

    [sup]23[/sup]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

    [sup]24[/sup]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    [sup]25[/sup]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    [sup]26[/sup]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [sup]27[/sup]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Apart from the new birth, at which time we receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, man cannot be saved. This passage was pointed out before, without much consideration:




    Romans 8:9 (King James Version)


    [sup]9[/sup]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    If one is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit...he does not belong to God...he is not saved.

    So I take the view that the promise of the Spirit is received when one is saved.

    When Jesus "breathed on the disciples, and said 'Receive ye the spirit," it is often concluded by some that they received the promise of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus said after this, was not many days hence.

    We know that the promise of the Spirit was not accomplished until Pentecost, so to see this as the indwelling of God, especially in light of the fact that Peter and many with him went back to fishing for...well, fish, rather than what they were trained for three years to fish for, men, seems a bit of a stretch.

    But, when Pentecost arrives, what happens? The "spiritual fishing poles" are taken up again.

    Better stop there, before I exceed two cents worth.

    GTY

     
  13. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    Do you really think Jesus had to go through the baptism of fire of judgement?

    Baptism with fire
    “He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16).
    “But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am
    till it is accomplished!” (Luke 12:50).
    Jesus asks His 12 disciples if they are able and willing to be martyrs also.
    “Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink,
    and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
    … You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism
    that I am baptized with” (Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39).
     
  14. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    This has been a very interesting discussion - I have enjoyed following it
     
  15. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    I never said Jesus would go through the baptism of fire of judgement. I was very clear that I believe based on the statements of John the Baptist, that he was referring to fire as an allusion to the baptism the wicked will receive.

    Now listen to Luke tell us what John says again:
    Luke 3:16 - John answered saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but ONE mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
    Who was John addressing? Only the righteous and those who would believe in Christ? No. Matthew and Luke both tell us there were "vipers" in the crowds that heard John.

    Luke 3:7 - Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

    The next question is what is the baptism of fire? John the Baptist tells us exactly what it is. In v. 8-9 he tells the crowds to bear fruit for repentance. Trees that do not bear fruit are thrown into the...Fire!

    The same imagery is used of the chaff.

    v. 17 - His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thorougly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat (believers) into His barn; but the chaff (wicked) He will burn with unquenchable fire." (keep the bolded words in mind for later)

    As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, the chaff was the shell of grain that was separated from the wheat. A winnowing fan was a wooden forklike shovel that lifted the grain in the air so that the wind could separate the chaff from the wheat. The chaff was burned, the wheat was not.

    Ps. 1:4 makes a comparison of the wicked being like chaff.

    I believe the audience of John's understood exactly what he meant by wheat and chaff and particularly the fire.

    Jesus Himself did not use the term "and fire" when telling the apostles they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, at least according to Luke, the author of both the gospel of Luke and Acts.

    Acts 1:4 "...but wait for the Promise of the Father, which, He said, you have heard from Me, for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

    Why doesn't Jesus tell His apostles they would get the "and fire"? I believe it was because the "and fire" John alluded to was not for the believers in Christ, but for the wicked.

    I'm not saying God hasn't used fire as an imagery of cleansing of saints. The scripture does use it that way, especially in terms of trials (see I Peter 4:12).

    You have to admit fire is used for judgement in scripture as well. And what fire do we as Christians (and scripture) call "unquenchable"?

    What does Jesus Himself say?

    Mark 9:43 - And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into HELL, into the unquenchable fire."

    Where did we see the phrase unquenchable fire before? Wasn't it the phrase John used to describe the fire which would affect the chaff?

    What do you think John?
     
  16. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    I'll be able to review your thoughts tomorrow.
    But, the other 3 baptisms are a great blessing indeed.
    This 4th one is also ... blessed are those who are presecuted for the gospel's sake, etc.
    Your fire baptism deviates from this pattern.
    What do you think, FinestBornIn2002?

     
  17. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    That's fine. The Bereans were noted for their nobility and fair-mindedness in searching the
    scriptures to see whether the things Paul said concerning Jesus Christ were true (Acts 17:10-12). So we should all follow their example.
     
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