I've watched this PRDS thing, I've seen it lead into much confusion. And no offense, but the Jews haven't had the best track record of understanding their own Bible.
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Let's discuss..cessation after death?
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I've always loved the imaginary conversation where James then replies, No, Don't you tell me you are a Christian! I will come and live in your home for a month, and then I will tell you whether or not you are a Christian!
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The Disciple John
Active Member
Spiritual death is literal death, in your view?
I don't think @Johann is asking if they died spiritually literally, but rather, did they die physically or spiritually?
Adam literally spiritually died. He was separated from God. That is true death. Being separated from your body is also death, physical death.
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The Disciple John
Active Member
You added a word.The lake of fire - everlasting fire - is symbolic of the second death. Full stop.
You should stop.
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Revelation 20:10 KJV
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
A symbolic devil symbolically thrown into a symbolic lake of fire for symbolic destruction? Or the devil that deceived them tossed into this lake that burns with fire, where he will be tormented?
Because that second way is how it reads.
And you haven't answered the question which I told you no one answers.
What if God were intending to communicate that there will be a real devil who will be really tossed into a real lake that burns with real fire, where he would be really tormented for a literal everlasting? How would He express this?
And if there would be others, humans, who would be likewise tossed into this same lake, to suffer the same torment for the same literal everlasting, and God were to tell us this, what words do you suppose He would use?
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
The Hebrew word for eternity is transliterated as “ad”, meaning continued duration, always or pertetually, is used only once in Isaiah 57:15: “For thus sayeth the High and Lofty One Who inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.” So keep this in mind, God inhabits eternity, which is a high and holy place. We He is we shall be. Does this imply Hell as well? No, although God is omnipresent, sin and evil are temporary.
This is the only time this term is used in the Old Testament. It is translated forty-one time as ever; twice as everlasting; once as end; once as old; once as evermore; and one as perpetually.
In this verse it is translated three different ways: “He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow; His ways are everlasting.” Hab. 3:6 Are mountains everlasting? No, the first earth will be destroyed and replaced. The Greek translation should then be age-lasting or age-during. Are hills perpetual? No, mountains and hills last for ages, epochs, as long as the earth does. Here only His ways should be translated as eternal.
Forever and ever are English terms, translated from the Hebrew word owlam and Greek word, aion. They may mean any period of time such as: lifetime, generation, epoch, eon, age (past or future) or the world. “Aionios’ would be the plural form. So these terms have variable meanings.
Let’s replace everlasting with eternity in this verse and see what happens: “But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him and His righteousness unto children’s children.” Psalm103:17 KJV Does eternity to eternity make sense? No, there is only one eternity. So everlasting should be translated age-during to age-during. And that makes more sense when you look to whom (in the same verse), His righteousness is given, to children’s children - to generations, ages, lifetimes.
Youngs Literal Translation gets it right: “And the kindness of Jehovah is from age even unto age on those fearing Him, and His righteousness to sons’ sons.” Psalm 103:17
In the following passages aion or aionios are to be translated as possessing an eternal quality: Romans 1:25 Romans 11:36 Ephesians 3:11 1 Timothy 1:17 1 Peter 1:23-25 Matthew 6:13 John 6:51 Galatians 1:4-5 Hebrews 13:8 1 John 2:17 Jude 25 Revelation 5:1 Psalm 37:28 Matthew 19:16 John 3:16 John3:36
Examples of translations of aion or aionios that do not have an eternal quality:
Genesis17:7-8 His covenant is to the descendants of Israel, generations . That particular piece of land will not last eternally. Genesis 17:13 Covenant of the circumcision of the flesh is not eternal. Exodus 31:16 Keeping the Sabbath is not eternal covenant. In the new heaven and new earth, there will not be a sun or moon, nor days of the week. Jude 1:6 Satan and his angels are chained for 1000 years, then loosed, then they are destroyed, so they are not eternal chains. 1 Corithians 10:11 Ages is correctly used, since the ends of eternity does not make sense. Ephesians 2:27 “in the ages to come” is correctly translated, eternity to come would not work.
Let’s now look at a key verse: Matthew 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” KJV. The same word is translated differently, why? Because everlasting means age-lasting. It is not the same as eternal. God inhabits eternity and so will we. We have always viewed these words as meaning the same, but they are not. Aionios has variable meanings as seen in the scriptures above. When applied to something temporal, it means temporal. When applied to God, His domain, our salvation, it means eternal.
We need to examine the word for punishment, kolasis. Is it corrective punishment or capital punishment? First we must examine other scriptures to understand what death really means. We know what life is. We are conscious of our body, we have a mind, will, emotions, live and breathe and all sorts of things. I am, therefore I exist. That is life. Death is the end of life! God shows us that our physical life will die. He will resurrect our dead bodies, some to eternal life and some for their final destruction. Spiritual life can be likened to physical life in that we are conscious, we have a mind, will, emotions, abilities, we exist. So spiritual death must also be likened to physical death: destruction, total and utter ruin, the end of existence.
Why did God throw Adam and Eve out of the Garden? (See Genesis 3:22) They sinned and therefore now had this sin nature and if they ate of the Tree of Life they would remain in that state eternally – but they didn’t and neither will anyone else in that state! So we can say that since we are all born with a dead spirit, unable to commune with God, and if we do not receive Christ and get reborn, we will suffer death. Since we are not able to eat of the Tree of Life, we will not remain dead spirits forever, we will surely die and no longer exist. We will not receive corrective punishment, we will be destroyed.
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 So there is no Purgatory nor any corrective punishment in the Lake of Fire, just destruction.
Let’s examine some popular verses that teach us about DEATH that should be examined alongside Matthew 25:46 to determine what kind of punishment this is:
2 Thessalonian 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting (age-lasting) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.”
The person who does not exist is not in torment, so I don't see how this makes sense. Fear has torment, not, fear has destruction. You don't cease to be when you fear, but you are tormented by your fear as you continue to exist.
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The Disciple John
Active Member
Actually, I added two words.You added a word.
You should stop.
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The lake of fire - everlasting fire (per Matthew 25:41-46) - is symbolic of the second death.
There. Accurate now?
Therefore, the torment is also symbolic. It represents something... Wait. Are you having an issue with "symbolic of".
Okay, you tell me then. The angel is not saying the lake of fire means, or is symbolic of the second death?
What if the angel is just not a reliable messenger, and we tell God to send a man like marks
and ask if he would allow us to pay no mind to a holy angel telling us these things...Revelation 1:20 The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches
Revelation 4:5 Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 17:9 The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.
Revelation 17:15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
What if the angel is not saying
- the seven stars mean, or are symbolic of the angels of the seven churches.
- the seven lampstands mean, or are symbolic of the seven churches.
- the seven lamps of fire mean, or are symbolic of the seven spirits of God.
- the seven eyes mean, or are symbolic of the seven spirits of God.
- the golden bowls full of incense means, or are symbolic of the prayers of the saints.
- the seven heads means, or are symbolic of seven mountains.
- the ten horns means, or are symbolic of ten kings.
- the waters where the woman sits means, or is symbolic of peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
- the woman means, or is symbolic of that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.
- the lake of fire means, or is symbolic of the second death.
Maybe God should have sent the Devil instead of that angel. We'll listen to him.
An answer to your questions rely heavily on human wisdom and philosophy, something which God calls foolishness. 1 Corinthians 3:19
...but you already know this, don't you marks?
So, I have a question. Do you disagree that the angel is using symbolism, and explains in the above scriptures their meaning?
Actually, I added two words.
The lake of fire - everlasting fire (per Matthew 25:41-46) - is symbolic of the second death.
There. Accurate now?
Therefore, the torment is also symbolic. It represents something... Wait. Are you having an issue with "symbolic of".
Okay, you tell me then. The angel is not saying the lake of fire means, or is symbolic of the second death?
It means what it says.
Revelation 20:10-15 KJV
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Where is it that this lake of fire is said to be a symbol of anything?
This is prophetic narrative, telling us what will happen.
Without something telling us this is a symbol, and what that symbol means, other interpretations that count this lake of fire as something other than a lake of fire are merely expressing their opinion that it doesn't mean what it says.
"I saw another great sign in heaven, a red dragon . . ." This is stated to be a symbol, "that ancient serpent, Satan", and the meaning of the symbol is given. This is Biblically authorative.
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Symbols, stated as such, with the meaning given. This has Scriptural authority.
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What if we just has a serious discussion without this kind of vanity?What if the angel is just not a reliable messenger, and we tell God to send a man like marks
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Yes, what if we just deleted the unproductive parts of our posts before clicking "submit"?
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NOT stated as a symbol, therefore, no authority to claim it is a symbol. Only one's personal opinion that it doesn't mean what it says.
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The Disciple John
Active Member
No problem.
Revelation 1:20 The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches
Revelation 4:5 Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 17:9 The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.
Revelation 17:15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Do you disagree that in the above scriptures the angel is using symbolism, and explains their meaning?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Thing is, answering this question would require speculation as to the mind of God, and that's a no-no for a lot of folks.
I see where you're coming from, but I can say, quite objectively, that from many (22 million that I know of) annihilationists' point of view, this type of behavior is so far removed from the loving character of God that He simply would not express it. To them, it is unthinkable to even consider that a Supreme Being with the primary attributes of justice and mercy, Who literally calls Himself "Love" (which is all we really know of His substance/nature) would torture His creatures for zillions of years for crimes that comprise no more than the space of 1000 years.
And I didn't count it up, but I'm pretty sure there's more textual evidence for annihilation than eternal torment, so it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me to rule in favor of the option that vindicates God's character. Just sayin'.
This subject is really odd to me because I can't understand why anyone would want to defend eternal torment and it's not that I'm not familiar with it because I firmly believed it for 18 years. But only because it was how I was raised. I never dared to examine all of the evidence. When I finally did, it was a no-brainer for me.
Some people are so insistent about it that they begin to seethe or become livid when it's challenged. And I think a lot of that comes from the fear of the opposing view becoming more widely adopted practically every day. It's the prime objection of atheists—a perfect in-road to evangelizing them. Some say it's dangerous to remove it from the motivating factors to follow Christ. I don't understand that one AT ALL. There seems to be a substantial subset of Christians out there who claim they would never have become believers at all if it weren't for their fear of eternal hellfire.
Believe it or not, eternal hellfire could easily be seen as a sister doctrine to eternal security. The sudden realization of the potential for endless torture, for some, surely necessitates the belief in a doctrine that makes sure one can never be recaptured by the prospect of its ominous and horrifying doom, once they've made the initial transaction with God for their salvation. Theologians of yesteryear made sure of this fire-escape religious package. I imagine it was seen as a welcome departure from the system of Rome.
Not that all adherents of the package have the "fire-escape" mentality, mind you.
Well, I'm gonna fire this off and put on my Kevlar.
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