License to Sin and Building a Strawman

[RichardBurger]

License to Sin:

Since I teach the freedom that the children of God “IN CHRIST”, that they are set free from the sins that are committed in their flesh, the religious always through out the charge of “having a license to sin” all they want to.

If a religious person was honest they would see that committing sin and then pulling out their get out of sin “repentance” card is the same thing, their license to sin all they want to.

Building a Straw man:

There are some that build straw men to get across the idea that a child of God can turn away from God and be lost. They see that there are some in the churches, that many think are Christians, and then they do bad things or change to another religion etc. and give them as an example.

This is the straw man they build but in truth they do not really know that those people were ever made a child of God, by God. According to the scriptures there are many tares (un-believers) in the churches.

It has been my experience that a true child of God, made a child by God, is kept a child of God ,by God for His purpose.

I was made a child of God when I was 8 or 9 years old. The Holy Spirit convinced me of my sinful nature and of my need for what Jesus did on the cross. As the scriptures teach, I was sealed with the Holy Spirit for His purpose. That was many, many, years ago.

I have always known that He (the Holy Spirit) was in my heart and He comforts me by always reminding me of who I am in Jesus. The Holy Spirit guides me to do His will. I feel that I am to share with others my confidence, belief, faith, and hope in Jesus Christ and that is what I do.

I grew up listing to preachers in churches and over the radio and then TV. The Holy Spirit always whispered in my heart that I should go to God’s word and see if those things I heard were true. I am sorry to say that not many of the things I heard are true. Most are that I must save and keep myself saved by my own will power. I constantly heard that there are things I must do to be saved and to keep myself saved. But all the time the Holy Spirit whispered that I was made a child of God for His purpose and I am kept a child of God for His purpose. I was not made a child of God by my efforts nor am I kept a child of God by my efforts.

It is this confidence in Jesus’ (God’s) work on the cross that I wish to share with others.

I am no straw man.

Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

Romans 7:1-6
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

Our fruit is those that turn to Jesus by our words.

 

[veteran]

The Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) doctrine of men cannot override The Word of God...

Heb 6:1-12
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

That's not talking about little sins we may commit which we need to repent of after having come to Christ and experienced of the heavenly gift, but to deliberate falling away from Christ to go back into their previous state before they knew Christ. It would be like one who followed the devil that turned to Christ, and then turns back to follow the devil again.

In that situation, the following applies...

Heb.6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


That's why Christ Jesus will say the following to some on the day of His return...

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)


This is also why Apostle Paul also showed that those who follow the works of iniquity from the flesh shall not inherit the kingdom of God...

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Believing by Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ unto Salvation is very important, so likewise it is important to not be a follower of the works of iniquity, showing that WHAT we do AFTER having come to Christ Jesus can put us in danger.

 

[veteran]

Christ Jesus gave five Messages to five of the seven Churches in Asia Minor, calling them to repentance because of sins they were doing.

Rev 2:18-23
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He Which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
(KJV)

Did our Lord Jesus say there He will give us all the same rewards? No. He said He will give us according to our WORKS.



Matt 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, "Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine."
26 His lord answered and said unto him, "Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents."
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

EVEN being slothful in not doing WORKS for Christ Jesus can put a believer in danger!!


That's why the OSAS doctrine of men is a dangerous doctrine of devils. It stresses that once a believer comes to Christ Jesus and is baptized in Him, that he can do nothing wrong thereafter to be assigned to that "outer darkness" among the wicked when Christ returns. Christ showed that even being slothful to do His Work after given a talent can put a believer in danger of that "outer darkness" when He returns.


And just where IS that "outer darkness" after Jesus returns?

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

That should drive us to want to get off our lazy rear-ends to go out and do even MORE WORKS for Christ than we may be doing now!!

 

[RichardBurger]

[quote/]
Christ Jesus gave five Messages to five of the seven Churches in Asia Minor, calling them to repentance because of sins they were doing.

Rev 2:18-23
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He Which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
(KJV)

Did our Lord Jesus say there He will give us all the same rewards? No. He said He will give us according to our WORKS.



Matt 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, "Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine."
26 His lord answered and said unto him, "Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents."
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

EVEN being slothful in not doing WORKS for Christ Jesus can put a believer in danger!!


That's why the OSAS doctrine of men is a dangerous doctrine of devils. It stresses that once a believer comes to Christ Jesus and is baptized in Him, that he can do nothing wrong thereafter to be assigned to that "outer darkness" among the wicked when Christ returns. Christ showed that even being slothful to do His Work after given a talent can put a believer in danger of that "outer darkness" when He returns.


And just where IS that "outer darkness" after Jesus returns?

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

That should drive us to want to get off our lazy rear-ends to go out and do even MORE WORKS for Christ than we may be doing now!!

You cherry pick the scriptures you wish. Jesus told us the work we are to do but I am sure you will not consider what He said because you have your own religious ideas.

John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
NKJV

And what works are we to do? Mine is to preach that salvation is the work of God and the freedom that we have in Christ Jesus. Mine is not to lay a burden on others that I can not carry.

The religious want to say to others "you have to stop sinning and all the time they still sin. That is laying a burden on others that they do not carry.

It is a true saying that Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous (those that think they are righteous).


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[/quote]

Does it drive you to want get off your lazy rear-end to go out and do even MORE WORKS for Christ than you may be doing now??? Or is it just others that are lazy. You judge others, are you judging yourself too. If you do the same things then why lay the same burden on others?

 

[veteran]

What are other reasons why the Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) doctrine of men is from devils?

Some brethren have a misconception about that idea of men, and think it does include later repentance and asking our Lord Jesus forgiveness after having believed on Him and baptized.

In reality, the heart of that doctrine does not include repentance of later sins, but instead totally shucks the possible existence of later sins we might commit. Afterall, once you're saved, you're saved, right?

The devils behind that doctrine don't want Christian brethren to realize how dangerous the heart of that idea is. It's because those devils WANT to destroy us. Not repenting and asking forgiveness of our later sins will destroy our walk by The Spirit in Christ Jesus. It means those sins are still on the slate, not wiped clean. It will create complacency away from our walk with Christ Jesus. That's what the Devil wants, to draw us away from Christ to make it easier for us to be led into darkness.

This is WHY our Lord Jesus when He taught us how to pray, He included the following petition for us to say in The Lord's Prayer...

Luke 11:4
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
(KJV)

The Devil well knows we still have need of repentance and ask forgiveness when we mess up, simply because of the flesh we still live in today. Paul said we all have been concluded under sin so that Salvation would be by Faith for those who believe on Jesus Christ (Gal.3).

What did Apostle John say about those who deny the fact that they can still sin after having come to Christ Jesus?

I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)

John was not speaking that to the unbelieving, but to believers on Christ Jesus, His Church.

For those who have gotten themselves trapped in that OSAS doctrine of devils, please say The Lord's Prayer like how our Lord Jesus commanded us to pray, right now. Don't wait, pray the prayer right now.

Have you felt that our Lord Jesus has not been listening to your prayers since believing that OSAS idea of man? Have there been many problems in your life where you feel a disconnect from the Power of The Holy Spirit? Repent to our Lord Jesus, ask Him forgiveness, for whatever that's in your heart that may be bothering you. He will cleanse you from it if you repent and ask forgiveness, as Apostle John declared there.

 

[RichardBurger]

What are other reasons why the Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) doctrine of men is from devils?

Some brethren have a misconception about that idea of men, and think it does include later repentance and asking our Lord Jesus forgiveness after having believed on Him and baptized.

In reality, the heart of that doctrine does not include repentance of later sins, but instead totally shucks the possible existence of later sins we might commit. Afterall, once you're saved, you're saved, right?

The devils behind that doctrine don't want Christian brethren to realize how dangerous the heart of that idea is. It's because those devils WANT to destroy us. Not repenting and asking forgiveness of our later sins will destroy our walk by The Spirit in Christ Jesus. It means those sins are still on the slate, not wiped clean. It will create complacency away from our walk with Christ Jesus. That's what the Devil wants, to draw us away from Christ to make it easier for us to be led into darkness.

This is WHY our Lord Jesus when He taught us how to pray, He included the following petition for us to say in The Lord's Prayer...

Luke 11:4
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
(KJV)

The Devil well knows we still have need of repentance and ask forgiveness when we mess up, simply because of the flesh we still live in today. Paul said we all have been concluded under sin so that Salvation would be by Faith for those who believe on Jesus Christ (Gal.3).

What did Apostle John say about those who deny the fact that they can still sin after having come to Christ Jesus?

I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)

John was not speaking that to the unbelieving, but to believers on Christ Jesus, His Church.

For those who have gotten themselves trapped in that OSAS doctrine of devils, please say The Lord's Prayer like how our Lord Jesus commanded us to pray, right now. Don't wait, pray the prayer right now.

Have you felt that our Lord Jesus has not been listening to your prayers since believing that OSAS idea of man? Have there been many problems in your life where you feel a disconnect from the Power of The Holy Spirit? Repent to our Lord Jesus, ask Him forgiveness, for whatever that's in your heart that may be bothering you. He will cleanse you from it if you repent and ask forgiveness, as Apostle John declared there.

You should be able to see my confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross. That is all I proclaim in everything I write.

The Lord' prayer was said to the Jews who were expecting God to set up a kingdom on this earth. Under grace we are not promised a kingdom on this earth. Our destination is in the heavenlies with Jesus. The statement "forgive us as we forgive others is under the Law of Moses. If God only forgives us if we forgive others then everyone's sins are not forgiven.

NO! I do not feel that God does not listen to me. The Holy Spirit whispers to me, in my heart, telling me I am safe and secure in God's love for me. That I have been made a child of God and and kept save from the condemnation of my sins of the flesh. That I am covered by the POWER OF GOD.

You really don't know what repentance is. It is a constant attitude of being honest with God, acknowledging to God that you sin in the flesh ALL, ALL, ALL, the time and need His love and salvation that He has given us as a free gift in the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.

But the religious think they only sin SOME of the time and have very little need to acknowledge their sins.

I will say it again, if you don't believe your sins, all of them, are covered by the shed blood of Jesus then they aren't and you have no way of covering them yourself. The covering of Jesus' blood is not something that man controls and can turn on by pulling out his/her repentance card.

 

[RichardBurger]

Veteran said:
What are other reasons why the Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) doctrine of men is from devils?

My reply:
Do you remember the vision that Peter had? God told Peter that he was not to call what God called clean, unclean. You should take that to heart when you condemn those that have placed their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.

Veteran said:
Some brethren have a misconception about that idea of men, and think it does include later repentance and asking our Lord Jesus forgiveness after having believed on Him and baptized.

My reply:
A true child of God “KNOWS” that his/her sins are forgiven, not because they say words but because they truly believe Jesus’ shed blood pays for their sins. But, of course, if anyone does not believe their sins are forgiven then they aren’t and their sins remain and condemn them.

Veteran said:
In reality, the heart of that doctrine does not include repentance of later sins, but instead totally shucks the possible existence of later sins we might commit. Afterall, once you're saved, you're saved, right?

My reply:
You only listen to what is in your own head. As I have said before, true repentance is a CONSTANT HONEST ATTITUDE that a child of God has in their hearts, acknowledging to God that they are sinful in the flesh. It is not a one time event. What part of that statement do you not understand? Many, and IMHO you, think repentance is a ritual that gets them out of sin. These do not believe Jesus’ shed blood pays for all their sins and since they don’t believe it their sins remain.

Veteran said:
The devils behind that doctrine don't want Christian brethren to realize how dangerous the heart of that idea is. It's because those devils WANT to destroy us. Not repenting and asking forgiveness of our later sins will destroy our walk by The Spirit in Christ Jesus. It means those sins are still on the slate, not wiped clean. It will create complacency away from our walk with Christ Jesus. That's what the Devil wants, to draw us away from Christ to make it easier for us to be led into darkness.

My reply:
Your doctrine draws men away from Christ to salvation by the efforts of men. In reality the Devil is behind the idea that man can influence their own salvation by what they do. The Devil wants men/women to be religious AND LOST.

What you teach is that Jesus’ shed blood only cover past sins. You limit the power of God shown in the cross. You, and many others, teach that what a person does can transform the flesh into flesh that does not sin. That salvation is the work of God up to a point and then it depends on the flesh to finish it. - That doctrine diminish to power of God and the work of Jesus on the cross. I really don’t think that God is pleased with that idea.

 

[australia]

Your doctrine draws men away from Christ to salvation by the efforts of men.

No way. This very debate is a result of the efforts of men to draw us further to Christ. Isn't that the common denominator here? Irrespective of the vast differences in biblical understanding between yourself and Veteran, we readers (10's 100's, 1000's?) are further drawn to the Word of God as a result. I learn a great deal myself through such debates. I'm sure the Holy Spirit is behind it all.

By the way, I love to pray to our Heavenly Father about just about anything. How about you? God never gave us limitations in that respect did He?

 

[RichardBurger]

No way. This very debate is a result of the efforts of men to draw us further to Christ. Isn't that the common denominator here? Irrespective of the vast differences in biblical understanding between yourself and Veteran, we readers (10's 100's, 1000's?) are further drawn to the Word of God as a result. I learn a great deal myself through such debates. I'm sure the Holy Spirit is behind it all.

By the way, I love to pray to our Heavenly Father about just about anything. How about you? God never gave us limitations in that respect did He?

Thanks for your reply. However, I wish that some of those that read the words on this forum would stand up and be counted. Many posters just go away because they feel they are alone and no one really cares.

My prayers are constant in thanks to God that He showed His love for me by making a plan of salvation that saves sinners.

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.


The Law failed because of the weakness of men. So God insituted a plan that is totally based on His work on the cross and it is free. It does not depend on the flesh. That is why Paul said we are those who place NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH.

 

[australia]

The Law failed because of the weakness of men.

So close. The Law never failed; it was man's failure to keep it.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[RichardBurger]

So close. The Law never failed; it was man's failure to keep it.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

The former commandment was the law. It says above that it (the Law) failed because of it's weakness and unprofitableness. At least that is the way I read it.

By the way, the book of James was written to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses (James 1:1). It was not written to the gentile grace church (the body of Christ).

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJV

The above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad "and to the Gentiles": Greetings. --- TBM (Taught By Man, [but not in any Bible])

The above is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well. It is a mainstay verse for those that teach works for salvation.

I will read and believe it as insprired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[tomwebster]

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

The former commandment was the law. It says above that it (the Law) failed because of it's weakness and unprofitableness. At least that is the way I read it.

By the way, the book of James was written to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses (James 1:1). It was not written to the gentile grace church (the body of Christ).

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJV

The above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad "and to the Gentiles": Greetings. --- TBM (Taught By Man, [but not in any Bible])

The above is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well. It is a mainstay verse for those that teach works for salvation.

I will read and believe it as insprired by the Holy Spirit.

The largest portion of the Church of Grace is the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." They mistakenly call themselves "Gentiles".

 

[Angelina]

I have no doubt that your testimony is true...I also have a similar testimony and believe that salvation is a free gift [Ephesians 2:8-10].....The works that you have been referring to, are the works of the flesh and of the law in respect to salvation...which is not what I have been talking about....

Guess what! Jesus has works for us to do also and these works are apart from salvation..

My issue with OSAS is that they think they can stay in that condition and also that they cannot fall from it [which we have established already, as being untrue] ...the bible says:


Acts 26:19-23
19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works[G2041] befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me . 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

G2041 ergon works
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Hebrews 6

The Peril of Not Progressing
[sup]1[/sup] Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [sup]2[/sup] of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [sup]3[/sup] And this we will do if God permits.
[sup]4[/sup] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [sup]5[/sup] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [sup]6[/sup] if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
[sup]7[/sup] For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [sup]8[/sup] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

If it were not possible to fall after one has been saved...Paul would not have said this...

A Better Estimate
[sup]9[/sup] But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. [sup]10[/sup] For God is not unjust to forget your work [G2041]and labor[G2873] of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. [sup]11[/sup] And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, [sup]12[/sup] that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

G2873 kopos - labour
From G2875; a cut, that is, (by analogy) toil (as reducing the strength), literally or figuratively; by implication pains: - labour, + trouble, weariness.

Titus 3
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.[G2041] These things are good and profitable to men.

14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works [G2041], to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

James 2
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works[G2041], and I will show you my faith by my works [G2041]. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works [G2041] is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works [G2041] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works [G2041], and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works [G2041], and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works [G2041] when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [G2041] is dead also.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

There are many more scriptures which I have not added but you get the gist of what I am trying to say....all of these works are apart from salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, however God has prepared good works for us to do....The ministry that God has led me to do are part of these "good works" and I do them by the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit...

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Shalom...

 

[RichardBurger]

The largest portion of the Church of Grace is the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." They mistakenly call themselves "Gentiles".

Sorry, I don't believe that. Paul taught the Jews and then went only to the Gentiles. How could he do that if all are Jews?

Acts 13:46-49
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said,"It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region.
NKJV

Acts 18:5-6
5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.
6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them,"Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
NKJV

Acts 26:23
23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
NKJV

So you believe Gentiles never existed. Amazing!

I have no doubt that your testimony is true...I also have a similar testimony and believe that salvation is a free gift [Ephesians 2:8-10].....The works that you have been referring to, are the works of the flesh and of the law in respect to salvation...which is not what I have been talking about....

Guess what! Jesus has works for us to do also and these works are apart from salvation..

My issue with OSAS is that they think they can stay in that condition and also that they cannot fall from it [which we have established already, as being untrue] ...the bible says:


Acts 26:19-23
19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works[G2041] befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me . 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

G2041 ergon works
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Hebrews 6

The Peril of Not Progressing
[sup]1[/sup] Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [sup]2[/sup] of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [sup]3[/sup] And this we will do if God permits.
[sup]4[/sup] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [sup]5[/sup] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [sup]6[/sup] if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
[sup]7[/sup] For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [sup]8[/sup] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

If it were not possible to fall after one has been saved...Paul would not have said this...

A Better Estimate
[sup]9[/sup] But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. [sup]10[/sup] For God is not unjust to forget your work [G2041]and labor[G2873] of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. [sup]11[/sup] And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, [sup]12[/sup] that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

G2873 kopos - labour
From G2875; a cut, that is, (by analogy) toil (as reducing the strength), literally or figuratively; by implication pains: - labour, + trouble, weariness.

Titus 3
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.[G2041] These things are good and profitable to men.

14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works [G2041], to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

James 2
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works[G2041], and I will show you my faith by my works [G2041]. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works [G2041] is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works [G2041] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works [G2041], and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works [G2041], and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works [G2041] when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [G2041] is dead also.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

There are many more scriptures which I have not added but you get the gist of what I am trying to say....all of these works are apart from salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, however God has prepared good works for us to do....The ministry that God has led me to do are part of these "good works" and I do them by the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit...

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Shalom...

How do you know Paul wrote that? The writer of Hebrews has not been determined. It is a fact that the book of James was not written to the grace church (the body of Christ). see James 1:1 but still you wish to impose it on the body of Christ. If it was to the body of Christ the Holy Spirit would have said so. But He didn't, He said it was to the Jews. I will believe Him.

 

[tomwebster]

Sorry, I don't believe that. Paul taught the Jews and then went only to the Gentiles. How could he do that if all are Jews?

Acts 13:46-49
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said,"It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region.
NKJV

Acts 18:5-6
5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.
6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them,"Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
NKJV

Acts 26:23
23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
NKJV

So you believe Gentiles never existed. Amazing!

Don't try putting words in my mouth Rich, I never said Gentiles do not exist. I said most of the people that claim to be gentiles are "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." They have forgotten their identity just like God said they would and truly think they are gentiles. Judah (commonly called "Jews") is only one of the twelve tribes and most of them have lost their identity as well, and many that call themselvs "Jews" are not of our brother Judah. It doesn't depend on your believing it or not. It's a matter of Scripture and history.

 

[Angelina]

How do you know Paul wrote that? The writer of Hebrews has not been determined.

Okay!....lets say John wrote it or perhaps another disciple....does that change the context of what has been said???

Hebrews 6

The Peril of Not Progressing
[sup]1[/sup] Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [sup]2[/sup] of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [sup]3[/sup] And this we will do if God permits.
[sup]4[/sup] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [sup]5[/sup] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [sup]6[/sup] if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
[sup]7[/sup] For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [sup]8[/sup] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

If it were not possible to fall after one has been saved...Paul would not have said this...

or John or another disciple....

It is a fact that the book of James was not written to the grace church (the body of Christ). see James 1:1 but still you wish to impose it on the body of Christ. If it was to the body of Christ the Holy Spirit would have said so. But He didn't, He said it was to the Jews. I will believe Him.

James 2

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works[G2041], and I will show you my faith by my works [G2041]. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works [G2041] is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works [G2041] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works [G2041], and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works [G2041], and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works [G2041] when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [G2041] is dead also.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

James 2
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works [G2041], and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works [G2041], and not by faith only.

G2041 ergon - work
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Btw: I believe the that the works he was referring to in the above verse was: "an act/ action"

John 8
[sup]39[/sup] They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works [G2041] of Abraham. [sup]40[/sup] But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. [sup]41[/sup] You do the deeds of your father.”

G2041ergon - works
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

The body of Christ today [Gentile believers] are not idle in their "good works" given to them by God....Many help the poor and the homeless...many help the widow and the orphan. Many missionaries continue to do their "good work" which is led by the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit. The OSAS are obviously unaware of this....

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Matthew 25
The Parable of the Talents
[sup]14[/sup] “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. [sup]15[/sup] And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. [sup]16[/sup] Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. [sup]17[/sup] And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. [sup]18[/sup] But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. [sup]19[/sup] After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
[sup]20[/sup] “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ [sup]21[/sup]done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ [sup]22[/sup] He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ [sup]23[/sup] His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
[sup]24[/sup] “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. [sup]25[/sup] And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
[sup]26[/sup] “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. [sup]27[/sup] So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. [sup]28[/sup] So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
[sup]29[/sup] ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. [sup]30[/sup] And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well


The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
[sup]31[/sup] “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. [sup]33[/sup] And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. [sup]34[/sup] Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [sup]35[/sup] for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; [sup]36[/sup] I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

[sup]37[/sup] “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? [sup]38[/sup]You in, or naked and clothe You? [sup]38[/sup] When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?

[sup]40[/sup] And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

[sup]41[/sup] “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: [sup]42[/sup] for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; [sup]43[/sup] I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
[sup]44[/sup] “Then they also will answer Him,saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ [sup]45[/sup] Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ [sup]46[/sup] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

James 2
[sup]14[/sup] What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? [sup]15[/sup] If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, [sup]16[/sup] and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? [sup]17[/sup] Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Shalom!

 

[Disciple]

Romans 7:1-6
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

Our fruit is those that turn to Jesus by our words.

Freed from the law of sin. But Gods law shall in no wise pass away.

 

[RichardBurger]

Don't try putting words in my mouth Rich, I never said Gentiles do not exist. I said most of the people that claim to be gentiles are "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." They have forgotten their identity just like God said they would and truly think they are gentiles. Judah (commonly called "Jews") is only one of the twelve tribes and most of them have lost their identity as well, and many that call themselvs "Jews" are not of our brother Judah. It doesn't depend on your believing it or not. It's a matter of Scripture and history.

No, It is a mater of your opinion. I do not share it.

Freed from the law of sin. But Gods law shall in no wise pass away.

The Law of Moses has not passed away. It is just not in effect during the time of the Gentiles (grace). It will be in effect again when the grace church is taken away.

Since the religious will always use the book of James to try and place the body of Christ back under the law I think people should really think about what it says and think that perhapes it was written to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses.

 

[tomwebster]

No, It is a mater of your opinion. I do not share it.

...

No, it is not a matter of your opinion it is Scripture and history.