The meter is still running...
How much have you added to the 3 minutes you'll never get back?
Might want to cut your losses...
Literal or Figurative - versus - Concrete or Abstract
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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How much have you added to the 3 minutes you'll never get back?
Might want to cut your losses...
Dear Jack,
Yes, all the historical events presented in scripture are literal and actually happened. However, those literal historical events teach spiritual truths. The example I presented of Noah and the flood is one of them.
Haven't you ever wondered why those historical events have so many odd things that happen in them? Those odd things are there to teach spiritual truths.
Joe
St. SteVen said:
Maybe you are overthinking it?
I was speaking directly to you, not behind your back.
Maybe you are overthinking it?
How so?
I was speaking directly to you, not behind your back.
I'll stick with the literal Christian Bible.
Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Preterist? Are you really saying that Jesus has already returned???
Dear St.SteVen,
When I was converted in 2005, Christ gave me "eyes that can see". That is the only reason I see differently than the "many" who make up the church. Mark 8:21-25 applies.
Joe
Dear Jack,
No. I teach the spiritual truth of end-time prophecy. It is not preterist or anything else as is commonly taught. End-time prophecy is teaching the spiritual pathway that the Elect will travel to their moment of salvation. All the prophecies have been or will be fulfilled "within" the Elect.
Joe
Dear Jack,
After an Elect believer is converted, all of Revelation (up to Rev 20:11) is fulfilled within them. The only thing that is still future is the bodily resurrections which are presented Rev 20:11-15. The resurrections will happen sometime after the last Elect person is converted in this age.
Rev chapter 21 then presents the bodily resurrected Elect (the New Jerusalem, the Bride). Rev chapter 22 then wraps up the prophecy.
In that final chapter it says this:
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Only the Elect are "blessed". They are blessed because Christ will see to it that they keep the sayings of the prophecy which teach the pathway to salvation.
Joe
Within them? You think the Devil is already in the lake of fire?
Revelation 20
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Mark of the Beast is past?
Revelation 16
1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
And this is past?
Revelation 16
20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
I think you have a VIVID imagination!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
More passive aggressiveness.
While your concern for my making effective use of time is touching, is cutting my losses why you mentioned me in post #7?
Passive-aggressive behavior is characterized by a pattern of passive hostility and an avoidance of direct communication.
Cutting your losses didn't come up until post #21.
What I said in post #7 had nothing to do with that, obviously. Tick, tick, tick, tick...
Dear Jack,
Your understanding and application of the prophecy is carnal. The events of the prophecy apply "spiritually" to each of the Elect.
The verses you quoted (Rev 20:9-10) are teaching about the time of testing that each newly converted Elect believer must pass. Christ "typed" this time of testing when Satan came to Him after He fasted in the wilderness for 40 days. Christ's 40 days of fasting is a "type" that represents the time that each Elect believer must endure under the influence of Satan. During their "40 days" of fasting, they will not be able to eat the true bread from heaven. This is the Elect's time of "great tribulation" (Mat 24:21). This time of tribulation was "typed" by the Nation of Israel when they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. It was also typed by Paul when he could not eat or drink in Damascus for three days.
After Christ completed the 40 days of fasting, Satan came to Christ to tempt (test) Him. With each temptation, Christ responded with the truth of the Word of God. This truth is represented by the symbol "fire from heaven". When a converted Elect believer is tempted by the people of this world (sand of the sea) who are under Satan's deceptions (includes the apostate church), the Elect believer will respond with the truth of God's Word. With this truth, the people of the world will be spiritually devoured (destroyed, refuted). After the time of testing is complete, the believer will have "overcome" this world just as Christ overcame this world (Rev 3:21). Satan will then be spiritually cast into the Lake of Fire and will never be able to tempt the Elect believer again. In other words, Satan will no longer be able to have any influence over the believer like he did before the believer was converted.
As for the mark of the beast, it is a spiritual mark and not a physical one as you understand it.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
After a believer receives the Early Rain and is called out from the world, Satan will come to them "at night" (time of spiritual blindness, Parable of the Wheat and the Tares) and plant his seed within them, too. Satan's "seed" is the spirit of anti-Christ. After a new believer has Satan's spirit within them, the believer has the "mark of the beast".
The reason scripture says that the believer receives the mark in their forehead or in their right hand is because the forehead represents the carnal mind and the right hand represents their mixing "works" with faith.
Verse 17 continues by saying that anyone who does not have the "mark" will not be able to "buy or sell" (be taught or teach) with others in the apostate church. Since the children of God (converted Elect) do not have the "mark", they will not be able to buy or sell in the apostate church.
Verse 18 says that number of the beast is 666. That number is a symbol which is understood this way: 6 is the number for mankind. When that number is repeated three times, the meaning of the number three is added to its meaning. The number three represents a spiritual process. In this case, the spiritual process makes the carnality of the believer "worse than the first"; a man of sin (Mat 12:43-45). This is also why Paul spent 3 days in Damascus blind and unable to eat or drink. Paul's three days represents his spiritual fall from grace under the spirit of anti-Christ.
Lastly, you mentioned Revelation 16:20-21. This scripture is part of the spiritual teaching on the final vial that completes the judgment of the Elect. After this last vial, Christ (the great voice from the temple) will say "it is done". This will complete the conversion of the believer. Only the Elect will "keep" the saying of this prophecy.
Joe
Baloney!
So you would accept a chip implant in your right hand?
Microchip implants for employees? One U.S. company says yes
On Aug. 1, employees at Wisconsin tech company Three Square Market can get a chip the size of a grain of rice injected between their thumb and index finger. It will allow them to swipe into the office building and...
www.seattletimes.com
Dear Jack,Baloney!
So you would accept a chip implant in your right hand?
Microchip implants for employees? One U.S. company says yes
On Aug. 1, employees at Wisconsin tech company Three Square Market can get a chip the size of a grain of rice injected between their thumb and index finger. It will allow them to swipe into the office building and...
You asked:
So you would accept a chip implant in your right hand?
No. I would not accept a chip implant because I don't get involved in the affairs of this world nor would I want to do anything like that to my body. My decision, though, has nothing to do with the "mark of the beast".
The "mark of the beast" (spirit of anti-Christ) came into the world near the end of the Apostles' ministries and that is when and why the church became apostate.
All the teachings of Revelation (along with all the end-time prophecies) have been relevant to each of the Elect since the time John received the vision because the time for their fulfillment was already "at hand":
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Not only was the time at hand when John received the vision, John was also told not not even "seal" the prophecy. How much clearer could Christ be?
Maybe here:
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, SURELY I COME QUICKLY. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
The apostate church has been waiting for Christ to come for nearly 2,000 years. That's 1/3 the length of time that creation has existed. However, for the Elect, Christ "is, was and will be' coming quickly to them before they die. If He didn't come, they would not be able to keep this sayings of the prophecy.
For believers who remain carnal and deceived by Satan in his apostate church, the prophecies will never be relevant to them. And because they won't be, they will not "keep" the prophecy's sayings so that they can be blessed by them.
The carnal understanding of end-time prophecy which is taught by the apostate church will never happen. The church may try and fit some of the current events into their understanding but that is nothing new - they have been doing that now for well over a century.
Joe
And your proof is?
He's clear but you're totally confused.
Your proof is? None maybe?
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Dear Jack,
You said:
And your proof is?
Since you can't see that the Seven Headed Beast is an apostate believer and that the second beast, who gives him his power, is the spirit of anti-Christ, there is nothing I could point out to you that you would consider proof.
You said:
Your proof is? ZERO maybe?
Again, your understanding is so carnal that the truth of Christ's second coming is concealed from you.
God's Word is written in Christ's spiritual language so that believers who have not been weaned with "eyes that can see" cannot understand the truth. Without the truth, a believer will "fall backward and be broken, taken and snared by Satan.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
All believers after receiving the Early Rain and being called out from the world will remain spiritually blind. Paul's blindness "typed" this truth. Satan will then come to the new believer and quickly deceive them. From Satan's deceptions, the believer will become a Seven Headed Beast (Man of Sin) who is controlled by the spirit of anti-Christ. This happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen. A believer has no say in the matter.
For the believers who are also chosen, Christ will come to them a second time and heal their blindness. For them, Christ will "come quickly". They are the only ones who will come out from Satan's deceptions and be saved.
Christ is the Savior and He alone decides who to save and when. In this age, Christ has chosen only a "few" to be a part of His harvest of First Fruits - and He made that decision a long time ago from the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
For those not chosen, they will remain carnal and under Satan's deceptions until they die. They will have to wait until the final age for their salvation.
Joe
You don't have any proof, just your opinions.
Do you know what 'irony' means?
Where does the Bible say it's 'spiritual language'?
I suspect you went to the wrong church buddy. You should have STUDIED the Bible first.
Dear Jack,
You asked:
Where does the Bible say it's 'spiritual language'?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Christ uses His "spirit" words in His "another language":
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER LANGUAGE will he speak to this people.
When Christ came in the flesh, He spoke Hebrew. So why does scripture say He spoke another language? Paul tells us:
1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Though Christ spoke Hebrew, the Hebrew words He used were "spirit" words. Those words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.
Here is an easy example using the spirit word "sword":
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.
Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?
In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...
From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.
Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out”), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.
Can you now see what I mean when I say that God's Word (Christ) is written in Christ's spiritual language?
Joe
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