Literal or Figurative - versus - Concrete or Abstract

[Jack]

Christ uses His "spirit" words in His "another language":

What???

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER LANGUAGE will he speak to this people.

When Christ came in the flesh, He spoke Hebrew. So why does scripture say He spoke another language? Paul tells us:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Though Christ spoke Hebrew, the Hebrew words He used were "spirit" words. Those words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.

Here is an easy example using the spirit word "sword":

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out”), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

Can you now see what I mean when I say that God's Word (Christ) is written in Christ's spiritual language?

Joe

So you're basically saying 'the Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what YOU say it means.'

 

[quietthinker]

Concrete is good for foundations and dams but it cannot walk on water

Abstract is good for art and for getting out of a ticket but it is faulty where precision is required

Concrete is good for foundations and dams but it cannot walk on water

Is that a concrete fact?

Why limit your understanding when both have a role? A story can be true without being factual. Jesus told true stories but they weren't necessarily factual.
Communication is about relaying a message....a true message.....you can do that with body language, with tone of voice and with a variety of other ways.

I guess the misunderstanding about this factor is why prophecies are interpreted poorly and equally poor conclusions arrived at.

 

[David in NJ]

Is that a concrete fact?

Why limit your understanding when both have a role? A story can be true without being factual. Jesus told true stories but they weren't necessarily factual.
Communication is about relaying a message....a true message.....you can do that with body language, with tone of voice and with a variety of other ways.

I guess the misunderstanding about this factor is why prophecies are interpreted poorly and equally poor conclusions arrived at.

Did you miss the concrete evidence that i pointed to in the abstract artwork of God's Handiwork?

JESUS told parables that relate to us factual outcomes.

i AGREE with you on the various "communication" methods of God in His word.

 

[Wrangler]

What???

So you're basically saying 'the Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what YOU say it means.'

Jack,

@FaithWillDo has presented compelling Scripture several times of God not speaking literally. Why can't you accept that?

I tend to stay away from apocolyptic/tribulation threads. However, this thread is not about that but the different literary devices used by Biblical authors. When I 1st read the Bible, I was surprised at how much of the Bible was written in figurative language. Here you seem to be coming from the opposite perspective, shocked, SHOCKED that the Bible is not completely literal. Do you truly believe there was a lady present with the LORD at Creation whose name was Wisdom?

“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
and I find knowledge and discretion.

The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
Proverbs 8:12, 22-23

Check this website out and tell me what you think. What kinds of literary techniques are used in the Bible?

 

[Jack]

Jack,

@FaithWillDo has presented compelling Scripture several times of God not speaking literally. Why can't you accept that?

I tend to stay away from apocolyptic/tribulation threads. However, this thread is not about that but the different literary devices used by Biblical authors. When I 1st read the Bible, I was surprised at how much of the Bible was written in figurative language. Here you seem to be coming from the opposite perspective, shocked, SHOCKED that the Bible is not completely literal. Do you truly believe there was a lady present with the LORD at Creation whose name was Wisdom?

“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
and I find knowledge and discretion.

The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
Proverbs 8:12, 22-23

Check this website out and tell me what you think. What kinds of literary techniques are used in the Bible?

View attachment 35490

When someone is OBSESSED with 'spiritual', 'symbolic', 'metaphor' etc. it's because they are avoiding 'literal' like plague. I.E. JW's, etc. They are writing their own bible to please themselves.

 

[FaithWillDo]

What???

So you're basically saying 'the Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what YOU say it means.'

Dear Jack,
I showed you the process of how to understand spiritual symbols as explained by Paul.

Paul says that to understand "spirit" words, you must compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the meaning can be discerned.

The truth of scripture is purposely concealed from the church (Early Rain only) so that believers in the church will fall backward and be broken, taken and snared.

Christ even said this:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you (the Elect, the few) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

IF this present age is the only time a person can be saved (as the apostate church teaches), then why is scripture written in such a way that only the Elect can understand it?

If a person's salvation depends upon understanding the truth of Christ, shouldn't scripture be written in such a way that everyone can easily understand it?

In light of the hidden nature of God's Word, do the teachings of the apostate church make any sense?

In this present age, Christ is only saving the chosen Elect. Christ even made His decision concerning their salvation before they were born; before they did any good or evil:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Christ chose the Elect from the foundation of the world to prove that He is the one who is solely responsible for anyone's salvation. Mankind has no free will ability to contribute towards their own salvation as the apostate church claims. In fact, mankind won't even seek out Christ nor can they understand His ways:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even a person's confession of faith comes from the spiritual work of Christ that He does within them beforehand.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Unless Christ comes to a person and gives them the earnest of the Spirit, they cannot call Jesus "Lord".

But because the earnest of the Spirit leaves the new believer spiritually blind and carnal, they still cannot discern the things of God.

The spiritual truth of scripture that I have been presenting is only "foolishness" to you. This is happening because you are still carnal and spiritually blind - just as all believers are before they are converted. I was certainly no exception.

Paul had the same issue with his spiritually blind churches:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The Corinthian church was so carnal that they could not even receive the milk of the Word. And now that the spirit of anti-Christ has devoured the church, there is hardly any truth taught in the churches. They have truly become apostate.

The whole loaf of bread that the apostate church consumes has leaven "hidden" in it.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The woman in the parable represents the carnal nature of a believer. It is through mankind's carnality that Satan deceives mankind and the church.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust (carnal mankind) shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

For that reason, the parable says that the woman took leaven (from Satan) and hides it in 3 measures of meal. Meal represents the truth of Christ. The number three represents a spiritual process which will happen when the leavened bread is consumed by a believer. When the spiritual process is complete, the believer will mix "works" with faith and will fall from grace.

Lastly, because the false teachings of Satan are hidden in the loaf, the believer does not know that Satan is deceiving them when they consume his leavened bread. This is the essence of deception. The new believer will think that they are truly following the ways of Christ - but they are not.

Christ said this about the power of Satan's deceptions:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another parable which teaches the same message as the parable of leavened bread is below:

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Do you understand this short parable?

A tree in scripture represents a believer. The mustard seed (which is the least of all seeds) is, in fact, the greatest among herbs. The mustard seed represents the Elect. When an Elect believer grows into a tree, the "birds of the air" (represents unclean spirits, the spirit of anti-Christ) will come and lodge it its branches. In the spiritual language of Christ, this means that the spirit of anti-Christ will indwell the Elect believer. When this happens, the Abomination of Desolation occurs within the believer (God's temple). The Old Man is then made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and will become a Man of Sin.

Because the Abomination of Desolation happens to all the Elect, the Elect will "see" the Abomination of Desolation after Christ heals their spiritual blindness:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

When a "born again" but unconverted Elect believer sees the Abomination of Desolation which had earlier occurred within them, Christ says for them to flee to the mountains so that the wrath of His judgment will not harm them. After they arrive in the mountains, Christ's judgment will fall on the Great Harlot (Sodom) and on the Man of Sin/spirit of anti-Christ (Gomorrah).

The "type" presented in the story of Lot applies to Christ's teaching in Mat 24:15-16.

Until a believer has seen the Abomination of Desolation, they have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire.

Jack, are you starting to "see" how Christ conceals His truth from everyone but His converted Elect?

Or do you still believe that scripture is written in a literal and easy to understand way?

Joe

 

[Jack]

Dear Jack,
I showed you the process of how to understand spiritual symbols as explained by Paul.

Paul says that to understand "spirit" words, you must compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the meaning can be discerned.

The truth of scripture is purposely concealed from the church (Early Rain only) so that believers in the church will fall backward and be broken, taken and snared.

Christ even said this:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you (the Elect, the few) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

IF this present age is the only time a person can be saved (as the apostate church teaches), then why is scripture written in such a way that only the Elect can understand it?

If a person's salvation depends upon understanding the truth of Christ, shouldn't scripture be written in such a way that everyone can easily understand it?

In light of the hidden nature of God's Word, do the teachings of the apostate church make any sense?

In this present age, Christ is only saving the chosen Elect. Christ even made His decision concerning their salvation before they were born; before they did any good or evil:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Christ chose the Elect from the foundation of the world to prove that He is the one who is solely responsible for anyone's salvation. Mankind has no free will ability to contribute towards their own salvation as the apostate church claims. In fact, mankind won't even seek out Christ nor can they understand His ways:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even a person's confession of faith comes from the spiritual work of Christ that He does within them beforehand.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Unless Christ comes to a person and gives them the earnest of the Spirit, they cannot call Jesus "Lord".

But because the earnest of the Spirit leaves the new believer spiritually blind and carnal, they still cannot discern the things of God.

The spiritual truth of scripture that I have been presenting is only "foolishness" to you. This is happening because you are still carnal and spiritually blind - just as all believers are before they are converted. I was certainly no exception.

Paul had the same issue with his spiritually blind churches:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The Corinthian church was so carnal that they could not even receive the milk of the Word. And now that the spirit of anti-Christ has devoured the church, there is hardly any truth taught in the churches. They have truly become apostate.

The whole loaf of bread that the apostate church consumes has leaven "hidden" in it.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The woman in the parable represents the carnal nature of a believer. It is through mankind's carnality that Satan deceives mankind and the church.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust (carnal mankind) shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

For that reason, the parable says that the woman took leaven (from Satan) and hides it in 3 measures of meal. Meal represents the truth of Christ. The number three represents a spiritual process which will happen when the leavened bread is consumed by a believer. When the spiritual process is complete, the believer will mix "works" with faith and will fall from grace.

Lastly, because the false teachings of Satan are hidden in the loaf, the believer does not know that Satan is deceiving them when they consume his leavened bread. This is the essence of deception. The new believer will think that they are truly following the ways of Christ - but they are not.

Christ said this about the power of Satan's deceptions:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another parable which teaches the same message as the parable of leavened bread is below:

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Do you understand this short parable?

A tree in scripture represents a believer. The mustard seed (which is the least of all seeds) is, in fact, the greatest among herbs. The mustard seed represents the Elect. When an Elect believer grows into a tree, the "birds of the air" (represents unclean spirits, the spirit of anti-Christ) will come and lodge it its branches. In the spiritual language of Christ, this means that the spirit of anti-Christ will indwell the Elect believer. When this happens, the Abomination of Desolation occurs within the believer (God's temple). The Old Man is then made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and will become a Man of Sin.

Because the Abomination of Desolation happens to all the Elect, the Elect will "see" the Abomination of Desolation after Christ heals their spiritual blindness:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

When a "born again" but unconverted Elect believer sees the Abomination of Desolation which had earlier occurred within them, Christ says for them to flee to the mountains so that the wrath of His judgment will not harm them. After they arrive in the mountains, Christ's judgment will fall on the Great Harlot (Sodom) and on the Man of Sin/spirit of anti-Christ (Gomorrah).

The "type" presented in the story of Lot applies to Christ's teaching in Mat 24:15-16.

Until a believer has seen the Abomination of Desolation, they have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire.

Jack, are you starting to "see" how Christ conceals His truth from everyone but His converted Elect?

Or do you still believe that scripture is written in a literal and easy to understand way?

Joe

I'll take the literal Bible over your opinions any day.

 

[Wrangler]

When someone is OBSESSED with 'spiritual', 'symbolic', 'metaphor' etc. it's because they are avoiding 'literal' like plague. I.E. JW's, etc. They are writing their own bible to please themselves.

You seem to be taking this personally. With all due respect, you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I have no idea how you justify dismissing the figurative language of Scripture based on one denomination's doctrine.

Furthermore, there is no basis to suppose @FaithWillDo is "obsessed" with non-literal language of the Bible. That is the topic of this thread. It is what we are supposed to talk about. If you've reached your limit, you are not required to post. However, all of this is a distraction from the question I asked in my previous post, about the link that has nothing to do with @FaithWillDo.

 

[Jack]

You seem to be taking this personally.

Your erroneous opinion! I don't take opinions personally. I defend our Bible, literally. When someone attacks our literal Christian Bible I just consider the source, Satan.

With all due respect, you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I have no idea how you justify dismissing the figurative language of Scripture based on one denomination's doctrine.

Furthermore, there is no basis to suppose @FaithWillDo is "obsessed" with non-literal language of the Bible. That is the topic of this thread. It is what we are supposed to talk about. If you've reached your limit, you are not required to post. However, all of this is a distraction from the question I asked in my previous post, about the link that has nothing to do with @FaithWillDo.

When someone throws out huge smokescreens to evade dealing with individual Scriptures, like FaithWillDo, that's a RED FLAG!

 

[St. SteVen]

Interesting short video with N.T. Wright and Peter Enns.

How does this affect the way we read and understand the Bible?

[

 

[quietthinker]

Interesting short video with N.T. Wright and Peter Enns.

How does this affect the way we read and understand the Bible?

[

The explanation sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Wrangler]

Interesting short video with N.T. Wright and Peter Enns.


How does this affect the way we read and understand the Bible?

@St. SteVen,

It seems that you are trying to get someone else to create a conversation or make an argument for you. What is interesting about this video? I'm not on a forum so I can watch vids. I can do that on my own. Use your words.

How does what affect the way we read and understand the Bible?

Regarding @Jack's staunch denial of the existence of metaphorical language in Scripture, in today's devotional reading of John 10, Jesus was apparently talking about his job as a shepherd and a strange obsession with sheep. In v 29, he says his father is more powerful than anyone else. That's inequality, isn't it?

 

[Jack]

Regarding @Jack's staunch denial of the existence of metaphorical language in Scripture, in today's devotional reading of John 10, Jesus was apparently talking about his job as a shepherd and a strange obsession with sheep. In v 29, he says his father is more powerful than anyone else. That's inequality, isn't it?

The reason we have thousands of 'Christian' churches with drastically different beliefs is because they reject the literal Bible. I take it as literal unless there's VERY good reason not to.

 

[Wrangler]

The reason we have thousands of 'Christian' churches with drastically different beliefs is because they reject the literal Bible. I take it as literal unless there's VERY good reason not to.

Like the sheep in John 10?

 

[Jack]

Like the sheep in John 10?

Yep

 

[Lambano]

Like the sheep in John 10?

The soundtrack for this thread is brought to you by George Thorogood and the Destroyers.

 

[Wrangler]

Yep

Just so I understand, you are admitting that the sheep in John 10 are not literally sheep. They are a figurative reference to something that is not sheep. Right?

 

[Lambano]

Just so I understand, you are admitting that the sheep in John 10 are not literally sheep. They are a figurative reference to something that is not sheep. Right?

But those sheep Jesus refers to is something concrete, i.e. those who follow Him (as sheep follow a shepherd), not an abstract spiritual concept.

(See, @St. SteVen, I really did watch the video. I have read some of the works of both Wright and Enns.)

 

[Wrangler]

But those sheep Jesus refers to is something concrete, i.e. those who follow Him (as sheep follow a shepherd), not an abstract spiritual concept.

(See, @St. SteVen, I really did watch the video. I have read some of the works of both Wright and Enns.)

Yup. IMO, the vid has an artificial dichotomy. There is no definition of figurative that means "abstract spiritual concept." For instance, in business school we discussed 2 strategies described as:

• Early Bird Gets The Worm
• 2nd Mouse Gets the Cheese

Figurative language usage, yes. Abstract spiritual concept, no.

 

[Lambano]

Yup. IMO, the vid has an artificial dichotomy. There is no definition of figurative that means "abstract spiritual concept."

I think the common fear is that figurative DOES imply abstract, leaving nothing concrete to hang on to.