Living in Sin or just roommates who love each other?

[Ferris Bueller]

Honestly, I don't know what you are trying to get at? what are you trying to justify here?

That the Bible shows us that having sex does not equal getting married.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No I am not thinking....that you are silly enough to think that drinking is a sin.....
but "Keep it out of the church!" Why? Because of wrong thinking?

No, but for the same reason Paul said not to eat meat sacrificed to an idol even though you have every right to do that!
Christians always focus on their rights and never on the potential consequences on others that the exercise of their rights may have. They don't care. To my recollection I have never heard a Christian agree with Paul that they have to not let the exercise of their freedom be a stumbling block to the weak. Never.

"9Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." 1 Corinthians 8:9​

Instead, the church is all about, "I'll do whatever I want to do and pity the fool who gets in the way of that!"

 

[Grailhunter]

That the Bible shows us that having sex does not equal getting married.

Incorrect. Since no weddings were required, you are saying that no one was married...Even the example of Miriam and Joseph shows them as "engaged" when they were in Jerusalem and He would not "take" her as his wife until after Christ was born.
The Bible gives zero requirements for wedding ceremonies and zero mention of a process and the Hebrews did not even have a word for wed or wedding. History back all of this up....no weddings required. And again the first Christian wedding recorded in history happened in the 9th century.....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But you keep harping on this matter of what constitutes marriage.

You're the one that kept bringing it up, even though the OP isn't about that, lol! So I said let's talk about it.

I guess the better way to phrase it is, "what constitutes getting married?"
We see, Biblically, it's not having sex as so many Christians contend.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, but for the same reason Paul said not to eat meat sacrificed to an idol even though you have every right to do that!
Christians always focus on their rights and never on the potential consequences on others that the exercise of their rights may have. They don't care. To my recollection I have never heard a Christian agree with Paul that they have to not let the exercise of their freedom be a stumbling block to the weak. Never.

"9Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." 1 Corinthians 8:9​

Instead, the church is all about, "I'll do whatever I want to do and pity the fool who gets in the way of that!"

It is not meant for the worldwide control for the weaker. And drinking is not the only "stumbling block" people have, there are worse issues. No children in the church because of men that have a tendency to molest children? No money or jewelry in the church for people that that are kleptomaniacs. Put all the women in hijabs so that men are not tempted. For people that think that technology is a sin, should we shut off the electricity in the church and make everyone walk to church. For people that are obese, no food in church.

It is true, that over time the churches have become like a therapy organization a broader expanse of Alcoholics Anonymous. If people have issues they need to get professional help, because some of these issues can get someone hurt or killed. It is an unworkable concept that the world adjusts to personnel issues.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Incorrect. Since no weddings were required, you are saying that no one was married...Even the example of Miriam and Joseph shows them as "engaged" when they were in Jerusalem and He would not "take" her as his wife until after Christ was born.
The Bible gives zero requirements for wedding ceremonies and zero mention of a process and the Hebrews did not even have a word for wed or wedding. History back all of this up....no weddings required. And again the first Christian wedding recorded in history happened in the 9th century.....

Oy, vey.......I wasted all that typing explaining it, lol.

Go! Just go, Grailhunter, a.k.a. Hephaestus, Greek god of metalworking, and everyone with you! Do whatever you want! Don't get married, just have sex! Bring your Scotch and Soda to the Advent Service! Do it in the name of heaven, you'll be justified in the end, lol!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It is true, that over time the churches have become like a therapy organization a broader expanse of Alcoholics Anonymous.

'Have' become?
You're kidding, right?
We're having this discussion because the exact opposite is happening in our churches.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If people have issues they need to get professional help

I don't recall that being in Paul's counsel to the church about the things that make people stumble.
I recall him telling more mature Christians to restrain the exercise of their freedoms for the sake of those you say need to seek professional help.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It is an unworkable concept that the world adjusts to personnel issues.

Paul had a very different opinion about that.
But, like I say, I've yet to talk to a Christian that agreed with him.

 

[Grailhunter]

You're the one that kept bringing it up, even though the OP isn't about that, lol! So I said let's talk about it.

I guess the better way to phrase it is, "what constitutes getting married?"
We see, Biblically, it's not having sex as so many Christians contend.

It is a good thing to have a wedding in the church and the reception in the church. But still the marriage is not finalized by a wedding. That is religious and legal and historical. The marriage was finalized as it was from the time of Genesis, when the couple joined. And that can happen before the wedding or after....either way, it makes no difference.

Just because there is a misunderstanding that does not change reality or make it doctrine.
A religion of what we like and what we do not like....has nothing to do with the Bible.
There is nothing wrong with believing the truth. And once you start believe things that are not true, it can only causes problems with other areas of biblical understanding.

 

[Grailhunter]

I don't recall that being in Paul's counsel to the church about the things that make people stumble.
I recall him telling more mature Christians to restrain the exercise of their freedoms for the sake of those you say need to seek professional help.

He could not recommend brain surgery either.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And drinking is not the only "stumbling block" people have, there are worse issues. No children in the church because of men that have a tendency to molest children? No money or jewelry in the church for people that that are kleptomaniacs. Put all the women in hijabs so that men are not tempted. For people that think that technology is a sin, should we shut off the electricity in the church and make everyone walk to church. For people that are obese, no food in church.

That's just dumb, lol.
This is about disputable matters...matters of conscience. There's nothing wrong or controversial about bringing children to church. Nothing about money or jewelry in church (except for an excess of jewelry, I'll give you that, and not for the reason of kleptomania, lol). Nothing about hijabs...but, since our borders are wide open here in the United States the day may come that Christian women will need to wear them because we may well be living in a Muslim society, not a Christian society, and they will be a stumbling block to them for those who convert to Christianity. Nothing conscionable about technology. Nothing about eating in church (I mean, I think we invented the potluck, lol). So maybe you can come up with a list of things that actually represent what Paul was talking about.

 

[Grailhunter]

Paul had a very different opinion about that.
But, like I say, I've yet to talk to a Christian that agreed with him.

All things in perspective. Concern and consideration....there were no churches back then like we have today. Back then a church was a congregation and there is no example of Christians discontinuing the Bread and Wine ritual because some one had a problem with wine. So then also weddings, there would have been no concern about weddings back then because it was not a custom. Not there, no concern, they were not thinking of weddings being involved with marriages. So Paul would not have talked about it.

If you have a guest or friend over that is trying to stop drinking or smoking....it does not have to be a religious thing...just trying to stop. It would be considerate not to drink or smoke in front of them. But conforming to customs in a church is not practical.

It is always better to preach the truth. Do not try to control people with lies.

Still it is fact that any denomination can require weddings.....saying that a couple cannot become an actual member of a church unless they are wed. That is a practical solution, but the couple did not sin for being married without a wedding, they are complying with the rules of the denomination.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The marriage was finalized as it was from the time of Genesis, when the couple joined. And that can happen before the wedding...

Sure, if you want to be a stumbling block to someone who doesn't think so, lol!
Is this kinda sinking in yet?

 

[Grailhunter]

Sure, if you want to be a stumbling block to someone who doesn't think so, lol!
Is this kinda sinking in yet?

No it is a belief that is false. That is what need to be the concern. Correct the false belief and you will not have these problems.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Just because there is a misunderstanding that does not change reality or make it doctrine.

Hmm...Paul was able to make a doctrine out of misunderstandings:

"9Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." 1 Corinthians 8:9

"16Do not allow what you consider good, then, to be spoken of as evil." Romans 14:16​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No it is a belief that is false. That is what need to be the concern. Correct the false belief and you will not have these problems.

And in the meantime do what? Shove it down their throat and say, "tough, I can do whatever I want."
I don't see that in Paul's counsel. But if I missed that verse please point it out to me.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

there is no example of Christians discontinuing the Bread and Wine ritual because some one had a problem with wine.

Uh, yeah there is. It's called Welch's Grape Juice, lol.
What Protestant churches have you attended?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It would be considerate not to drink or smoke in front of them.

But to heck with them if it's about the fact that you are not legally married to your partner, right? No consideration for an unmarried couple and their conscience required in that matter, right?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But conforming to customs in a church is not practical.

What's not practical about restraining behavior for the sake of immature and weak Christians and not causing them to sin against their conscience? I mean, I know, to heck with 'em, right? But not allowing some things is certainly a practical way to keep them from sinning against their conscience, right?