Living in Sin or just roommates who love each other?

[Ferris Bueller]

Well I think it clearly does...In my counrty, if you've lived together for 2 years or more, [in a defacto relationship] you have the same legal rights as a married person if you separated. If I lived with a male friend and did not have a sexual relationship....I would not have the same legal rights. JM2C. I'm sure the law is similar over there

'Getting married' is making a lifelong commitment to a person. Even in your example, just having sex is not considered a marital commitment. In your country, living together 2 years or more is the marital commitment they will recognize, not the fact that they had sex. If they did, they would recognize every one night stand as a legal marriage. So you can see commitment is the determining factor in marriage, not sex. In the United States we make that commitment in a formal religious or legal ceremony. Until that happens we have no reason to conclude that a couple having sex is in a marital relationship, unless they demonstrate they are by being together, faithfully, for a lengthy period of time. Then the civil authorities will recognize it as a legal marriage.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The point is, teaching that there’s no such thing as casual sex to God - have sex and you’re committed for life, in Gods eyes

God knows the difference between casual sex and marriage...

"...the man you now have is not your husband." John 4:18
​

This is the verse I share with every couple who are afraid to get married and say just being together is being married in God's eyes.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Are you going turn them away until they are married?
I am asking how you would handle this in the real world?

They can attend the church as guests and can have no participation in the church as believers.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Ferris Bueller

Keep this all in stride we usually agree.
You can look at what I do and you can see what my ministry is. Johnny Appleseed of Truth and meet evil head on.

And as they say, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." And usually the end does not justify the means.
Sweet, nice, compassionate people can be thinking wrong and do things that is scripturally wrong and in the long run hurt people.

You and I both have had to deal with the OSAS crowd. Some of them are not evil, not trying to lead people to hell. Some are just sweet and compassionate....mothers and grandmas that have children or grandchildren that are homosexuals or drug users and they cannot bear the thought of them being ridiculed and condemned, outcasts in society....going to hell. So they believe their sins are forgiven acrossed the board and the homosexuals and drug users are going to heaven, just like the rest of us. They think it is good and compassionate and considerate. But as they are supporting them and encouraging them and saying everything is ok, patting them on the back....the angels are piling hot coals on their soul. And they are going to go to hell. With them encouraging them and supporting them, they deny them the truth and the possibility of repentance ....greasing the steps, so to speak, to hell.

Well this applies to what you are talking about. If you were standing with Christ and the Apostles in Jerusalem back then and you explained this to them, you would definitely get an ear full. There is no way they would agree with compensating for, accommodating, adjusting your behavior for false beliefs...it end up allowing false beliefs to not only continue, but promulgates the false beliefs and other false beliefs because these beliefs are connected to other beliefs. Lies multiply and that is just the way they are.

A false belief that gives others ammunition to condemn and gossip about others....sins that do not need the support to happen. Christ and the Apostles gave no indication of any tolerance of false beliefs and pretty much cursed those that preached a different Gospel.

Correction is the better course of action. It is a slow process because old habits die hard. That is why when I am in the churches I do not force the issue, I just plant seeds of truth. But I never go along with false beliefs.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Unless you have a crystal ball you do not know how messed up people are.
Nor can you tap dance hard enough to accommodate all the issues.
You will end up living in a closet.

The problem is when this thinking makes you abandon the teaching all together. Which, as far as I can tell, the church has done. At least here in the United States it has. You know, because we're all about our freedoms and to heck with anyone who tries to take them away from us.

 

[Grailhunter]

God knows the difference between casual sex and marriage...

"...the man you now have is not your husband." John 4:18
​

This is the verse I share with every couple who are afraid to get married and say just being together is being married in God's eyes.

But this is a deception and a misrepresentation of the scripture. This is what people do, the get into the scriptures and adjust things to what they believe.
Not everyone that had sex during that era had relationships. If they did not couple they effectively walked away from the relationship, the marriage. And then you have your sin, sexual promiscuity. Sexual sin......."the man you now have".....not "the man you live with." And the Samarians were a different sort and that is why Christ could not send His Apostles or disciples...

Struggling against what is true and reality is not going to work. Better to tell the truth and work on reducing false beliefs.

 

[Grailhunter]

The problem is when this thinking makes you abandon the teaching all together. Which, as far as I can tell, the church has done. At least here in the United States it has. You know, because we're all about our freedoms and to heck with anyone who tries to take them away from us.

See post 464

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But this is a deception and a misrepresentation of the scripture. This is what people do, the get into the scriptures and adjust things to what they believe.
Not everyone that had sex during that era had relationships. If they did not couple they effectively walked away from the relationship, the marriage. And then you have your sin, sexual promiscuity. Sexual sin......."the man you now have".....not "the man you live with." And the Samarians were a different sort and that is why Christ could not send His Apostles or disciples...

Struggling against what is true and reality is not going to work. Better to tell the truth and work no reducing false beliefs.

Your rationalizations won't work.
The man who slept with a woman who was not betrothed was required to marry her.
Sleeping with her did not make him married to her. It required him to marry her. He had to make a commitment to her.
'Having sex' is having sex.
'Getting married' is making a commitment to her. Until he does that he is not married to her.

Sexual sin......."the man you now have".....not "the man you live with."

But you said having sex automatically makes you married.

 

[Grailhunter]

Your rationalizations won't work.
The man who slept with a betrothed woman was required to marry her.

No I am not taking about betrothed, I said, Not everyone that had sex during that era had relationships.
Even in the OT there are very few example of father and perspective grooms going through the whole money or barter system and the father and Man agreeing on a marriage. There is nothing that shows that they did that a lot.

Sleeping with her did not make him married to her. It required him to marry her. He had to make a commitment to her.
'Having sex' is having sex.

Your still fighting the facts and I cannot help with that. If you are insistent on believing a false beliefs that is your problem, not mine.
There is no requirement or even a suggestion of a requirement for wedding in the Bible....certainly no description of the wedding process or vow. Now the Jews did at times work off a contract between the father and perspective groom. There was no Law requiring the consent of the bride. Again the first Christian wedding that is documented occurs in the 9th century and that was by their choice. Neither the Bible nor history show wedding as a Christian custom or belief.

The Protestants were the first to require a wedding and that was in the 1500's.

The Bible gives us really nothing to suggest anything but sex forming the relationship. And history and Judaism both agree with this and still practice this today.

The initial event gives the union the point of forming a marriage
Reference Christ description here
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

No mention of a wedding by either Yahweh or Yeshua....once they cleave they are one. What therefore God has joined together....
This is the reason that the Catholic Church made marriage a sacrament ....this event had a connection to God.

It might be interesting to know what you think formed the marriage....but you will not find scriptures on it.

 

[Grailhunter]

But you said having sex automatically makes you married.

It does make them married. And according to the Mosaic Law the husband had to write a letter of divorcement. And then if he continues to have sex with other women, this is what the Christians took exception with.

We don't have a lot of examples in the OT of couples having sex and going their own way....but it does talk about the penalties for doing such.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It does make them married. And according to the Mosaic Law the husband had to write a letter of divorcement. And then if he continues to have sex with other women, this is what the Christians took exception with.

Then explain why having another wife (continuing to have sex with other women) was marriage while going down to the local pagan temple and having sex with a temple prostitute was not marriage. Obviously, it's because he's not marrying the temple prostitute. He's just having sex with her. This illustrates well that marriage is more than just having sex with someone. 'Getting married' means making an outward tangible commitment to someone, not just having sex with them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you are insistent on believing a false beliefs that is your problem, not mine.

Your beliefs are part of the liberal beliefs that have ruined the church.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No I am not taking about betrothed

I edited that post. I meant NOT betrothed to another man.
The man who sleeps with a woman who is not betrothed to another man was required to MARRY HER. That shows us he was not automatically married to her by having sex with her.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Even in the OT there are very few example of father and perspective grooms going through the whole money or barter system and the father and Man agreeing on a marriage. There is nothing that shows that they did that a lot.

Even if that's true, it doesn't change the fact that God said to marry the woman he has sex with. Showing us that having sex does not automatically make you married.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It might be interesting to know what you think formed the marriage...

Your commitment to it. Not the act of having sex.

 

[TEXBOW]

Then explain why having another wife (continuing to have sex with other women) was marriage while going down to the local pagan temple and having sex with a temple prostitute was not marriage. Obviously, it's because he's not marrying the temple prostitute. He's just having sex with her. This illustrates well that marriage is more than just having sex with someone. 'Getting married' means making an outward tangible commitment to someone, not just having sex with them.

When a man has sex with a woman in God's eyes this should be a union between those who love each other and are committed now into a true marriage (not the same as a legal wedding in our society today). The fact is a man can get a marriage license and marry a man these days. It's not the paper that makes it right with God. When a man has sex with a prostitute he has sinned. Sinned by not having that union of love and then having sex.

 

[Grailhunter]

Then explain why having another wife (continuing to have sex with other women) was marriage while going down to the local pagan temple and having sex with a temple prostitute was not marriage.

I am not sure what you are asking.
If you are talking about two wives or four wives like Jacob, in a polygamous marriage....
He more or less went through the barter system with Laban and no of course no ceremony and then took the handmaidens as concubines or wives.
If you are talking around having sex....then I am assuming that it was a sin....if he was caught, the Mosaic Law required him to pay the father a bride price and then keep her. No ceremony.
You mentioned temple prostitute, Jacob had sex with Tamar thinking she was a temple prostitute, but he eventually married her. Of course Judaism nor Christianity believed in using prostitutes.

The Bible never mentions anytime that sex did not form a union in marriage or that there was something else required. In the OT women were handled like property and God did not get real involved with what a man did with his property, except human treatment and allow their chance at having babies.

 

[Grailhunter]

I edited that post. I meant NOT betrothed to another man.
The man who sleeps with a woman who is not betrothed to another man was required to MARRY HER. That shows us he was not automatically married to her by having sex with her.

May I remind you that you are talking to a guy that knows the Mosaic Law and Jewish customs.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
LOL There is nothing in these scriptures that says he must marry her, and of course there is no ceremony but "shall be his wife" can be said she is his property and as a wife would stay with him, he is going to provide for her and feed her and give her an opportunity to have children. The scripture means he cannot pay the father and walk away. And they are not Egyptian so the marriage is not finalized when the woman moves her stuff in. And of course, this is all contingent on being caught!

 

[Grailhunter]

Your commitment to it. Not the act of having sex.

What defines commitment?
Find something else that causes a man and women to be married.
Even Yahweh described it that way and Christ agreed.