amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I had no real point my friend . It was just something that came to me . I doint know why it says faces as men but hair like women.
Locusts in Revelation
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VictoryinJesus
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same here. I have no idea. Just random thoughts: The most interesting is their breastplates of iron … considering the breastplate of Faith and love, having put on the breastplate of righteousness. Iron doesn’t sound too good, neither does teeth as the teeth of lions…but I could be wrong. When considering hair like women? …what of an helmet of salvation?
Revelation 9:8-9
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting that idea of the Antichrist making war for 7 years?
The symbolic 'woman' at the start of Revelation 12 is about God's Israel per The Old Testament times. Those 12 stars, sun, and moon symbols were given in Joseph's dream of Genesis 37. But for the latter days, the latter 3.5 year tribulation, which is the subject of Revelation 12:7 forward, that is about Christ's Church which Apostle Paul called the "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2. Sorry to break the news to you, but God's Israel is Christ's Church. You'll never understand that as long as you rely on the leaven doctrines of men which is mostly taught in today's taken-over churches.
Now I showed you, documented it in Matthew 24:15-21 that the time of "great tribulation" begins with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol defined in the Book of Daniel, which is what our Lord Jesus was quoting from. Per the Daniel 9:27 verse, the time when that abomination is setup is to be in the MIDDLE of the final "one week" (7 years). That mid point divides that 7 year period into two 1260 day periods. Since the trib doesn't start until that AOD is setup in the MID point of the 7 years, and that's when Jesus showed the trib will begin, then how can you think the tribulation will be for 7 years? That's enough evidence in Scripture for me, to know the trib will be the latter 1260 day period, but there's other Scripture that proves it too.
In the Revelation 13:4-8 Scripture, we are told the "dragon" (Satan) will have power over us, and the nations for 42 months. That is equal to 3.5 years, or 1260 days. That is about the latter half of Daniel's 7 years.
In Revelation 11, we are shown that God's two witnesses will appear in Jerusalem, and prophesy for 1260 days against the beast, and then they will be killed, their dead bodies left in the street for three and one half days.
In that same Revelation 11 chapter, we are shown that John was told to not measure the outer court of that temple, because it is given to the Gentiles, and they will tread under foot the holy city for 42 months, the same time of the dragon's future reign of Rev.13.
The time of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 1260 days is within the time of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Revelation 11:14-15 shows with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period is the time of Jesus' coming to take reign over all the kingdoms of this world. So that also shows us that the time of God's two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days is the actual great tribulation time.
Here is yet another way to know what timing it is when God's two witnesses show up in Jerusalem in our near future to prophesy for 1260 days...
The last 3 Trumpets each have a Woe attached to them, which is a type of emphasis that we are to especially pay attention to those events declared to happen within 'each' period. That's 3 Periods...
1st Period = 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe; the events from Revelation 9:1-12.
2nd Period = 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe; the events from Revelation 9:13 to Revelation 11:14.
3rd Period = 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe; events on the 7th Trumpet of Christ's coming and taking reign over the kingdoms of this world, pouring out His wrath, judgment of the dead, reward to His servants, etc.
Based on that, we know per what Jesus taught about His future coming AFTER the tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, that the time just prior to His coming MUST BE the time of "great tribulation". So that again means that 1260 days the two witnesses prophesy MUST be the tribulation time 1260 days just prior... to Lord Jesus' coming.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
When i say what i say next you will realize these do not represent those things .
Look at from where they come from , the BOTTOMLESS PIT . So it cant be that . I think it just means they are strong .
Davy
Well-Known Member
The Isaiah 24:20-23 Scripture is about the last day when God ends this present world with Christ's coming. Then on that day of Christ's coming, the kings of the earth are thrown into the pit with Satan and locked in it, and visited after many days (the "thousand years" of Revelation 20).
So that Isaiah event is the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing when Jesus comes.
The locust working of Revelation 9 is on the 5th and 6th Trumpets, pointing to a time just prior to the "great tribulation" (i.e., 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe), and then to the actual time of "great tribulation" (6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe).
The locusts are told they can't hurt any green thing, and can not kill those who don't have God's seal; that omits any ideas that they represent a literal military army, even though Revelation 9 and Joel 2 does use descriptions of a type army. In Joel we are told if they fall on a sword they won't be wounded. That makes it clear that how God is using those symbols it's not about a literal army.
And the latter part of Revelation 9 tells us their power is in their mouths, which is a direct pointer to what comes out of their mouths is their main weapon of attack upon the deceived. And truly, those not sealed with God's seal will be deceived for the coming tribulation, for deception to the coming false Messiah in place of Jesus is the main battle for the tribulation.
Davy, although I know that you have spent much time in study, I hope you will not mind if I treat your thoughts in this quoted post of yours with little regard and will not become angry with me for doing so
Shalom
Davy
Well-Known Member
Not at all, I just don't accept many of the SDA's doctrines, and I don't mind showing why.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Revelation 12: (first 3.5 years)
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
That is the first half of the GT when Israel is protected and becoming saved and brought into the Church. The Antichrist is now making was with we Christians who are not protected (lukewarm), but the Philadelphian Christians who are either hot or cold, are protected, and Satan's Antichrist cannot touch them. 1 John 5:18. Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
Revelation 13: (second 3.5 years)
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and Mark 13 show two things. What happens to Israel during the Daniel 9 last 7 years 66 AD to 73 AD, with 70 AD in the midst of the week. And also the end of the age at His second coming. Many confuse the two. Rev. 12 and 13 is about the end of the age, not the destruction of the temple.
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But I am not SDA, Davy. I do not belong to any particular denomination at all.
What I have come to understand of the End Times is that I need to be careful of grasping at straws to fill in the blanks that I might have. I have no need to do so or to present a straw man's argument in an attempt to put down another member or to boost my standing with others.
Shalom
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
What verse claims the AC reigns for 7 years? What verse claims there is war for 7 years? Where does 14 years come from?
Anyone notice how helicopters fit this description? Except now it's drones....our future war will use drones to carry out missile strikes.
Keraz
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As the Lord is soon to wipe out our modern infrastructure on His Day of fiery wrath, Isaiah 13:9-11, +, anything that relies on electronics or electrical systems like radio control will be just so much useless junk.
I see the 'locusts' in prophecy as a manifestation of the Electro Magnetic Pulse from the sun, which the Lord will instigate on His Day of vengeance and wrath.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The Revelation 12:6 verse, prior... to the war in heaven, is the 1st half of Daniel's "one week"...
Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV
The latter half of the "one week" is what the Revelation 12:7 forward events are about, when the war in heaven happens and Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth. Those events are for the VERY END OF THIS WORLD, not back in history.
Those who see these Revelation 12:7-17 events as past history are on men's leaven doctrines of Preterism or Historicism. Those doctrines do not stay with what is written in God's Word.
The Revelation 12:11 and Revelation 12:17 verses are specifically events to occur for the very end of this world, and are linked to Jesus' Olivet discourse. So any idea that Christ's Olive discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 was past history, is not in keeping with what Revelation reveals.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yet those are SDA ideas, not your own personal ideas, you didn't come up with them first.
Davy, do you know why I have no regards for your comments on what I wrote. It was because you showed that you had no idea as to the sequence of how the End Times unfolds and as such you have constructed your own understanding which does not mesh very well with what we are told will happen in the Scriptures.
As for your opinion as to how I come to my conclusions are how the locusts came to be in the Bottomless pit, they are so far off the mark that you must have been hallucinating and though that you were in my mind at the time that I came to my understanding. That would be the only way for you to know how I came to the conclusion that Isaiah 24:21-22 explains how the Beast and the kings of the earth come to be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit when they are judged. Oh well you have presented another straw man argument to justify you post. NOT good at all Davy. Using false arguments to bolster your position is not good at all.
Shalom
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Hi Davy,
Revelation 12:6 and 13-14 refer to the same first half of the GT.
12:13-14 is a repeat of 12:6 and must be read in the context of their individual surrounding verses separated by the war in heaven. Here unsaved national Israel is becoming saved and part of the saints during the period where they are being protected.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
The rest of Israel to be sealed is during this 3.5 years in which also the 2 witnesses are on the earth.
Revelation 7:
After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Revelation 13:5-7 (second half of the GT.)
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
This is when both the newly saved Jews (144,000) and the pre-tribulation saints of now (us) will be overcome and martyred.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No one is martyred who are overcome. That is adding words to the text. Overcome does not indicate death. Overcome means their authority on earth is taken away for 42 months, until Satan's time is up. After the 42 months, Jesus returns with the 144k to reclaim that authority. That is the interpretation of Daniel 9:27 as well:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The 42 months in Revelation 13 is this time of desolation. There are no church martyrs. There are lost humans who have to decide to take the mark and worship Satan, or remove their head so they can remain in the Lamb's book of life. This is not a choice of faith being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb like today. This is not about Christians being martyrs for their faith. This is actually accepting the Lamb by having one's head chopped off. We today accept by faith, the free gift. We are not forced to die to recieve that gift. These people never accepted the grace of God. These people are accepting that grace by allowing their head to be chopped off.
The difference between them and Christian martyrs is that a Christian is a believer prior to martyrdom. Those during Satan's 42 months are redeemed by having their head chopped off. Christian martyrs are already redeemed despite if their physical life ends.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Are you distinguishing between a 7 year war, and a 7 year rule?
7 plus 7 make 14.
Neither 7 years exist in Scripture. They are concocted human time frames. Satan only rules for 42 months. That is only 3.5 years.
Davy
Well-Known Member
NO way. The verses PAST Revelation 12:6 are about the time of "great tribulation".
Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
We are shown in Daniel 12:1 that is when Archangel Michael shall "stand up", "... and then there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:" (Dan.12:1) That is about the time of the very end (the GT) that Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse...
Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
Therefore, the war in heaven and casting of the "dragon" out of heaven down to this earth with his angels is an event tied to the "great tribulation" timing Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.
Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
By that previous phrase, "neither was their place found anymore in heaven," that reveals when Satan and his angels are booted out of heaven by Michael, that they are no more allowed in heaven, and that means they are coming here, on earth literally, in our dimension. So no wonder we are forewarned of a time of "great tribulation" on earth when that happens.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
That further proves what I just said, that in heaven once Satan and his angels are kicked down to this earth, there will finally be real peace in Heaven, and the Power of Christ literally manifested there without Satan appearing before God's throne to accuse us, like what he did in the Book of Job. That still has not happened yet today, because their place no longer found in heaven literally means they only have one other place they can go, and it is in our earthly dimension. And that does not mean Satan working behind a veil of the heavenly still. It means those on earth will literally 'see' him because like the angels, he also has the image of man.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That Testimony is one of the events Lord Jesus foretold that some of His servants will be delivered up to give at the end per Mark 13 and Matthew 24, and Revelation 11. It is an event specifically prophesied for the very end of this world just prior to the "day of the Lord" (day of Jesus' return). That was prophesied in Joel 2 also, and quoted by Apostle Peter on Pentecost, with Peter actually pointing to Pentecost being an example for the end, because that Joel 2 Scripture is pointing to the time just prior to the "day of the Lord" (Christ's coming).
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
That "short time" is a direct link to the Revelation 17:10 verse, the 7th beast king that is not yet come, and when he comes he continues "a short space". It is the shortened time of the "great tribulation" that Jesus said in Matthew 24:22 that, "... except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved."
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
That is the start of the "great tribulation", the latter 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week". It will be Satan himself as the "dragon" that will setup the "abomination of desolation" in JERUSALEM for the very end.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Satan's titles of "that old serpent" and "dragon" are used interchangeably here to let us know who this is about that's coming to earth. That is the timing of the last half of the "one week", a 1260 day period when God's two witnesses will prophesy, and then after that period the 'beast' that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Satan) will kill them, and leave their bodies laying in the street in Jerusalem.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Just as the locusts of Revelation 9, we were shown their power is in their MOUTHS, likewise the type of attack Satan will do on earth when he gets here, in OUR earthly dimension, will be with what comes out of his MOUTH. What comes out of one's mouth? WORDS! And in Satan's case, it's words to cause deception. Deception to what? To bow to him in place of GOD.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
That protection, or help, for the symbolic "woman" of that time, i.e., Christ's faithful Church, is about SPIRITUAL protection AWAY from that dragon's deception. That is why the next verse shows he will try to come against Christ's faithful elect to make war at the very end, to try and wipe us off the earth, like Jesus warned in Matthew 24:22.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
That remnant is about Christ's faithful elect that will not... be subject to Satan's "strong delusion" of playing God here on earth among us. Those who make a 'stand' for Christ during that are going to SPOIL SATAN'S LITTLE PARTY HERE ON EARTH AT THE END.
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