Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture

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bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
You are dodging the point and I am not going to let you get away with it. Your point was that our reasoning methods in the modern day cause us to misunderstand how the ancients would have understood the Bible. Yet YOUR reasoning methods are leading you to conclusions that were rejected from the very people you claim your are thinking like and that modern thinkers are not! Don't you see the irony here? You are basically saying, "The ancient communities would not have drawn the conclusions we are drawing." I say, "Um, well history disagrees with your interpretations on how ancients would have understood these texts." And you say, "Oh, well thats just because the blind lead the blind."

So basically, your point is that you know better than everyone else of what early readers understood. And when history disagrees with you, well, its just because we are looking at oppressive history. How convenient. But then again, maybe I am just trying to oppress you with logic. lol
you make a good point here, and i suggest that even in Christ's day there were people who it might be said heard Christ logically, and took Him literally when He stated that He had to leave so that He could return, and we have their testimonies in Acts...and we also have Paul taking up collections for them after some years had passed.

So i am not meaning to claim that conditions were any different then than they are now, so much as point out that logic was just then in the ascendancy, because certainly many contemporaries of the time would have interpreted the Writ that they had logically then, the same as they do now. But this does not adequately refute that dialectical thinking is different from logical thinking; "as far as East is from West," ok.

i encourage you to reject a dialectical approach if it does not fit with your understanding, by all means, but it follows that you must first have some understanding of a dialectical approach. Note the contrast, wherein you essentially demand that a logical approach be used, and cannot even concede that a dialectical approach be contemplated. "This verse must mean that, and that passage has to mean this."
 
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bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
Ok, so your argument is that the fact the NT was written in the Greek language proves that the NT writers were accepting of Greek practices and lifestyles, including those they specifically condemned in those Greek texts. Am I being punked?
well, you say "accepting" when i might phrase it more like "aware of," but the point may be to just contemplate why Greek would have been employed at all in light of the fact that that is where logical reasoning is considered to have come to the fore. So the Q "are you being punked?" might be best answered after determining how strongly it is that you desire to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord?

Iow have your--and let's face it everyone else's too; everyone desires this, not just "Christian believers." This concept is stated many, many ways, Utopia, bliss, Eden, heaven, paradise, on and on--desires led you to an assumption--that admittedly many, many people share, me included even--that has a supportable (from Scripture) contending assumption, that, say, some other sect holds true, while yours does not? Are there any conclusions (assumptions) that maybe you both hold in common?

Might it be best to ignore the both of you, and recognize that anything the two of you might agree on might be the most suspect information of all? Iow should one seek their own salvation, with the utmost earnestness? So then possibly if you are a punk, you are going to get punked, might be a way of looking at it.
Wormwood said:
Childlike faith and reason are not antithetical. Didn't Jesus say we should be innocent as doves and wise as serpents? I don't think Jesus' call for his disciples to be like little children mean they were to be gullible and believe everything someone tells them (in fact, he warns them about such gullibility). Childlike faith means that we trust God when we don't have all the answers. It doesn't mean that we believe things that are contradictory, untrustworthy or suspicious.


I agree with this. However, there are biblical principles that should guide our thinking. Otherwise, we are left to spit-balling with our own devices and whatever the prevailing trends of culture embrace. That never turned out very well for the Israelites.


Id encourage you to use biblical examples of what you mean. Again, I don't think the Bible is this vague and nebulous.
then please state your unassailable doctrine from Scripture, and we will see if i can assail it or not! :)

I think if someone spends time really honestly looking at a text, the message is pretty clear. The problem is that many today are very eager to try to justify themselves and spend a lot of time and energy trying to prove that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. This is all a pretty recent development in Biblical scholarship and is usually driven by some cultural norm that is trying to find wider acceptance...so people try to manipulate the Bible to convolute a clear teaching.
Which "clear" teaching might we be talking about? "Provide for your family," or "don't work for food?" :)
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
my appeal to church history was not an effort to justify my views.
it wasn't? "I hold the orthodox position" is not an attempt to justify your pov?

Wormwood said:
My point was that you are claiming your way of reading the Bible was how early readers would have read it but your conclusions are light years from theirs. So obviously the is not the case.
um, which conclusions are those, exactly?

Well, considering Jesus is the "logos" (from whence we derive our word "logic") I think I prefer a logical perspective from an illogical one. FYI, I do not solicit donations for money either. I am not paid by offering plates or church donations...so I assure you my views have nothing to do with my own financial self-preservation.
lol, then BAM be acolyte to those who are logical, and have logically signed Contracts for Jesus, and assure you of what you most desire to know; who am i to dissuade one from logic? Consider dialectics, from which Scripture is acknowledged to have been written, as "illogical," and don't bother with dialectics at all, if that is what suits you. If God honors your pov, who am i to dispute it?

If your borders are expanding, and your land is healed, and your nation is at peace, then i am the first to agree that you should seek the salvation that so many others have deemed acceptable, and the best of luck with Joe to you.

At some point you might question how you have come to prefer logic over something that you do not understand, but this is entirely up to you, and it is your responsibility to define those who "see and not see" for yourself.
 

Wormwood

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Based on your rationale, language is too slippery to be reliable. So I don't see the point of having this conversation any further as you clearly see communication as a pointless endeavor. I think you've spent too much time reading Foucault.
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
Based on your rationale, language is too slippery to be reliable. So I don't see the point of having this conversation any further as you clearly see communication as a pointless endeavor. I think you've spent too much time reading Foucault.
i've heard of him, but never read him, i take it he's a philosopher? "He also became active in a number of...groups involved in anti-racist campaigns, anti-human rights abuses movements, and the struggle for penal reform." Prolly a better person than i am, i guess.

anyway, i would not deem communication pointless, so much as wish to recognize how two people hear the same thing differently, which everyone has their own examples of. "Language is too slippery to be reliable" might be a good way to put it, in fact. This doesn't mean that we stop communicating, but it maybe does point to our propensity to make assumptions about what we hear--from our own povs--and to recognize that reading is at quite a remove from actually hearing something said--which points one to Word, btw--being that we lose inflection, at the very least; while noting that we often seek clarification even for things we hear (from people, if not from Word)

Imo "Stay here for the present" is a quite apt illustration of this concept, and i hope you notice that i make no conclusions other than that Talmudic scholars are recorded as employing "Stay here for the present" type reasoning--and even developing it to an art--at a time when logical thinking is known to have been in the ascendancy. So see that i am not suggesting that you even accept any of my conclusions, so much as learn a new way to change your mind that will likely be more in line with the intent of the Writ, imo as evidenced by the abundant hints provided.

You might see the sense in which i am not even talking to you any longer, as your post there makes clear where you stand on the matter, which is the same place you started. So, if you can see it, understand how someone else might read that post; some agreeing with you, and others maybe noticing that you have bothered to communicate a post about your desire to no longer communicate, an oxymoron wherein your actual purpose is revealed, perhaps, that being taking the opportunity to dismiss this concept once again, to belittle it, just from a slightly different angle, that being to conflate it with philosophy now. Seems like it would be better to seek peers that have learned dialectic reasoning and abandoned it or something; assuming that you can find any? rather than declare the grapes sour? at least imo.

And who am i to tell you that you, and those who agree with you, are wrong? What would even be the point? I can only suggest that the writers surely used dialectic reasoning, and if you choose to refuse to even consider it as a method for grasping their intent that is entirely up to you, and i understand. I have had the experience of listening to aspiring rabbis verbally spar at the Wall, and was struck by the differences in the way they debate Scripture v the way we do, even though i was ignorant of this concept of dialectic thinking at the time, or at least only barely aware of it; i knew "Easterners" thought differently, but would not have had a term for describing it.

So no doubt there is some way for any curious to verify this by other means, via Jewish forums or something, i dunno, if the link i provided does not show any fruit.
 

bbyrd009

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i am minded of scanning by Charlie Rose last night--i think it was; the context was "leaders have to lie"--hearing a guy say "well, you have read 'The Prince...'" and i guess i am minded of that now because you have evinced support for the system of men, intimating that they are how i derive the freedom to say whatever it was i said in that thread; the point being that those you point to all have The Prince as their bible; have you read their bible yet? I am reasonably assured that you have not, or your post would have at least been phrased differently; and i guess that can only make sense once you have read The Prince. Um, so nevermind :)
 

bbyrd009

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another possibly compelling way to see this is that you are insisting upon using the Scientific Method to approach your metaphysics, and the writers were fully aware that this would occur, and so logic traps have been installed throughout Scripture, so that even logical conclusions are made to fail. And there are many ways in which this might be revealed, which is why i ask for--and also why i do not receive, of course--unassailable doctrines, that would purport to demonstrate any absolute truth.
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
homophobe. I am neither of those things. I just simply believe the Bible teaches the behavior is sinful and I won't be intimidated by unjustifiable labels to say otherwise.
apparently over 450 species have been observed to engage in homosexual behavior. I'm not entirely sure what to make of that myself, but i suggest that it should be contemplated. Now, do i believe that homosexuals will be in the kingdom? No, i do not. However, it might easily be a reflection more of "Recognize that this natural thing that currently happens now will not happen when the kingdom has fully manifested" rather than being abused by those who crave authoritay to be the arbiter of others' sins, as the wording surely invites many to do.

i mean, wadr i am listening to a guy who advocates confession in dark closets to those in league with child molesters tell me what behavior he believes is sinful, gimme a break here k. You are making jokes, and likely do not even realize it here.
 

bbyrd009

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bbyrd009 said:
another possibly compelling way to see this is that you are insisting upon using the Scientific Method to approach your metaphysics, and the writers were fully aware that this would occur, and so logic traps have been installed throughout Scripture, so that even logical conclusions are made to fail. And there are many ways in which this might be revealed, which is why i ask for--and also why i do not receive, of course--unassailable doctrines, that would purport to demonstrate any absolute truth.
and don't worry, i'm not holding my breath or anything lol.

If you are committed to the Scientific Method, some reflections upon scientists might be in order;

In 1676 an anomaly in the orbit of Io, Jupiter's innermost moon, led the astronomer Ole Roemer to make a very specific prediction. Io would appear from behind Jupiter at 5:37 pm on November 9, 1676, he said--and that would prove light travels with a finite speed. Roemer's mentor, Jean-Dominique Cassini, head of the Paris Observatory, rubbished the idea; light spread instantaneously, he said. His beliefs led him to a different prediction. According to Cassini, it would be 5:27 when Io appeared.

Io appeared at 5:37 and 49 seconds. On hearing of this, Cassini announced that the facts fit with the story he had presented. Although Cassini had made his (erroneous) prediction at a public gathering of scientists, not one of them demurred when he denied it; they all backed him up. Roemer had to wait fifty years to be vindicated; only after Cassini had died did scientists accept that the speed of light was finite.
https://books.google.com/books?id=oP4AU5ACcU0C&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=In+1676+an+anomaly+in+the+orbit+of+Io,+Jupiter%27s+innermost+moon,&source=bl&ots=5Y-jeFwhU-&sig=EBRVx6_x_hQeRS0OzGmbD34Pw1M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm1d2xucfTAhWMNSYKHeuDCx0Q6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=In%201676%20an%20anomaly%20in%20the%20orbit%20of%20Io%2C%20Jupiter's%20innermost%20moon%2C&f=false
 

bbyrd009

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In 1969 the astronomer J. Donald Fernie made a wry observation. He was writing about the decades it took for astronomers to spot an error had been made early in the twentieth century. "The definitive study of the herd instincts of astronomers has yet to be written," Fernie said, "but there are times when we resemble nothing so much as a herd of antelope, heads down in tight formation, thundering with firm determination in a particular direction across the plain. At a given signal from the leader we whirl about, and, with equally firm determination, thunder off in a quite different direction, still in tight parallel formation."
ibid
 
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bbyrd009

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LcPhkVV.png
 

bbyrd009

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...The words came three centuries too late to be of comfort to Ole Roemer, but we should take note; this is how science works. Just as light travels with a finite speed as it moves across the cosmos, science (religion) progresses with more impediment than you might ever have thought. However, there is no fundamental law that imposes a speed limit on science, to be sure.It is simply the fact that human beings are involved.
ibid
What a hoot though, you've heard of Cassini, right? After all, it ain't called the Roemer Probe lol. Nope. It's Cassini, the ignernt thwart, who gets the posthumous nod from his descendant bretheren, because after all he was the Head of Something (quite an interesting story in itself. Guess he has overly prideful family descendants, too).
 

bbyrd009

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There are several factors in play...
Of other people don't get in the way, circumstances will...
Sometimes the obstacle is a scientist's own fear of the unknown...(fascinating reading)
Then when all else fails to block progress, there is always the assumption that there is nothing new to discover...
Six years earlier (1888), the astronomer Simon Newcomb had said we are "probably nearing the limit of all we can know about astronomy."
(dismiss this vis a vis religion at your peril, imo)
This self-assured triumphalism is not just an ancient phenomenon...
ibid
lol, no kidding
 

bbyrd009

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And etc, we have barely scratched the surface of the ways people can deceive themselves.

So, while you do not have to prove anything to me, certainly, when you make logical statements as if you knew something, on a forum, as if these were true, when you do not know, it becomes necessary to say something imo, and meaning no offense. Paul's wolves did not just give up and disappear, regardless of whether we are now blind to them or not.
 

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bbyrd009 said:
i've heard of him, but never read him, i take it he's a philosopher? "He also became active in a number of...groups involved in anti-racist campaigns, anti-human rights abuses movements, and the struggle for penal reform." Prolly a better person than i am, i guess.

anyway, i would not deem communication pointless, so much as wish to recognize how two people hear the same thing differently, which everyone has their own examples of. "Language is too slippery to be reliable" might be a good way to put it, in fact. This doesn't mean that we stop communicating, but it maybe does point to our propensity to make assumptions about what we hear--from our own povs--and to recognize that reading is at quite a remove from actually hearing something said--which points one to Word, btw--being that we lose inflection, at the very least; while noting that we often seek clarification even for things we hear (from people, if not from Word)

Imo "Stay here for the present" is a quite apt illustration of this concept, and i hope you notice that i make no conclusions other than that Talmudic scholars are recorded as employing "Stay here for the present" type reasoning--and even developing it to an art--at a time when logical thinking is known to have been in the ascendancy. So see that i am not suggesting that you even accept any of my conclusions, so much as learn a new way to change your mind that will likely be more in line with the intent of the Writ, imo as evidenced by the abundant hints provided.

You might see the sense in which i am not even talking to you any longer, as your post there makes clear where you stand on the matter, which is the same place you started. So, if you can see it, understand how someone else might read that post; some agreeing with you, and others maybe noticing that you have bothered to communicate a post about your desire to no longer communicate, an oxymoron wherein your actual purpose is revealed, perhaps, that being taking the opportunity to dismiss this concept once again, to belittle it, just from a slightly different angle, that being to conflate it with philosophy now. Seems like it would be better to seek peers that have learned dialectic reasoning and abandoned it or something; assuming that you can find any? rather than declare the grapes sour? at least imo.

And who am i to tell you that you, and those who agree with you, are wrong? What would even be the point? I can only suggest that the writers surely used dialectic reasoning, and if you choose to refuse to even consider it as a method for grasping their intent that is entirely up to you, and i understand. I have had the experience of listening to aspiring rabbis verbally spar at the Wall, and was struck by the differences in the way they debate Scripture v the way we do, even though i was ignorant of this concept of dialectic thinking at the time, or at least only barely aware of it; i knew "Easterners" thought differently, but would not have had a term for describing it.

So no doubt there is some way for any curious to verify this by other means, via Jewish forums or something, i dunno, if the link i provided does not show any fruit.
bbyr,

I suggest that you Google Foucault, a postmodern, post-structural, deconstructionist. Foucault was one of the leading defenders of deconstructionism. You could start HERE.

Oz
 

bbyrd009

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OzSpen said:
bbyr,

I suggest that you Google Foucault, a postmodern, post-structural, deconstructionist. Foucault was one of the leading defenders of deconstructionism. You could start HERE.

Oz
um, another philosopher? What is the connection to the assertion that the Talmudic scholars wrote dialectically?
 

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Well, again, looks to me like you are trying to overcomplicate things. When the Bible says it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as with a woman....well, I just don't see much symbolism. Also, I think you continually overstate your case by trying to turn a simple discussion about what the Bible teaches into some kind of rant about oppression and so forth. A person can believe the Bible rejects homosexuality without "oppressing" anyone. Finally, I think 4,000 years of Jewish teaching and 2,000 years of Christian teaching on the issue make it pretty plain how these verses have been viewed throughout the ages. Seems strange to me that you think you know how ancient people would have understood the text and yet all the ancient writings we have from those very people show that homosexuality was viewed as a sin and was not part of their culture in any way. Its fine to have theories, bbyrd, but at some point you need SOMETHING valid to back those views up....a verse...as historical precedent...something.


Again, this is a straw man. This has nothing to do with oppression or judgment. I also believe lies are sinful. Does that mean I oppress and condemn everyone I hear telling a lie? Give me a break. Personally, I think you have been duped by the prevailing trend of our culture to push agendas via harassment and manipulation by calling everyone who disagrees with their stance a bigot and a hate monger. As a result, people cave to prevailing trends not because they are right or have any rational or biblical justification, but simply because they don't want to be seen as a bigot or a homophobe. I am neither of those things. I just simply believe the Bible teaches the behavior is sinful and I won't be intimidated by unjustifiable labels to say otherwise.


How do you even know you understand what I am writing? Arent you asserting your authority over my words by assuming you understand what I am writing right now and therefore are only getting what you want to get out of my sentences rather than what I intend? Of course, I am being a bit sarcastic. You assume you know what I am saying based the fundamental nature of communication and you don't even think twice about it. Yet, any verse you don't like you seem to want to explain away by saying that the most natural interpretation is merely an effort by oppressive leaders who are jockeying for power and preeminence. Again, seems like you are more interested in looking for loopholes as to what a text doesn't mean that providing any valuable information about what a text does mean...and why.


I think its comical that you are claiming that I am imposing my own authority on the text, while you are claiming the same authority to say that my claim of authority is wrong. It reminds me of the quote, "People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." LOL.


I just think you have a basic issue in understanding genres and how various figures of speech operate. If I say, "That woman is a perfect 10." Obviously I am not calling the woman a number. I am not saying she looks like a 1 or a 0 either. It is a figure of speech to say she is very attractive. Yet just because it is a figure of speech does not mean the women isn't real to begin with. My point is this...simply because figures of speech and metaphors are used to describe the condemnation of the wicked such as Gehenna, lake of fire, outer darkness, a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc. does not mean the place is not a "literal place." It may not "literally" be fire, or dark or worms, or a smoldering dump like Gehenna.....but it is (or will be) a literal place. The point of metaphors or figures of speech is that they help to explain something that is beyond explanation. Just as one may not be able to explain all the precise literal features that make a woman incredibly beautiful and so they might use a phrase "a perfect 10" so also the suffering and misery of those who suffer under God's condemnation exceeds the bounds of human language and imagination. Yet it is still real. The words mean SOMETHING. A metaphor or figure of speech does not render a sentence meaningless. It simply expands the imagination to capture things that are perhaps a bit out of the reach of common language or experience. We see this all the time in the Scriptures. If hell is not literal, then one must conclude that heaven is not literal either because Jesus spoke a lot more about hell than he did heaven.

In sum, both heaven and hell ARE literal places. They are not fairy tales or made up notions Jesus and other people in the Bible employed to make theoretical points. Yet metaphors are used to descr
But words are learned programming that only have an effect on those programmed to react a certain way when heard like pavlovs dogs were trained to respond. Divine love is beyond the earthy mans logical box of judgment perceived to be the last word on divine mentality that this world is only a training ground for, that will is that all be saved. which trumps traditional dogma.
 
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Wormwood

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But words are learned programming that only have an effect on those programmed to react a certain way when heard like pavlovs dogs were trained to respond. Divine love is beyond the earthy mans logical box of judgment perceived to be the last word on divine mentality that this world is only a training ground for, that will is that all be saved. which trumps traditional dogma.

So where does your "dogma" that "love trumps traditional dogma" come from?

“Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” (1 Timothy 4:16, NKJV)

Seems like the Bible teaches that our doctrine/dogma really matters. Personally, I prefer the Bible to guide my "doctrine" rather than pop culture. Maybe you are the one who is more like Pavlov's dog since you are the one jumping to popular cultural sensitivities and my views run contrary to present cultural conditioning.