Losing A Child

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,723
768
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
The infant stage of human life is only the beginning; nobody stays that way.
No, they grow up and mature into adults. An immutable Biblical axiom is
that human babies don't grow up to become sinless, no, they grow up to be
full-fledged sinners, just like their parents; so that everything the Bible says
about sinners is just as true for people who die in infancy as it is for people
who survive and make it to adulthood; e.g.

†. Gen 8:21 . . Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even
though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.

So then, God can't take an infant directly to heaven because infants are
innately evil beings, rather than innately righteous beings, with the potential
to grow up and become quite bad.

†. Ps 58:3-5 …Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they
are wayward and speak lies. Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like
that of a cobra that has stopped its ears, that will not heed the tune of the
charmer, however skillful the enchanter may be.

In a nutshell: infants are just as toxic as baby cobras, and as most people
know, a baby cobra can kill you just as quickly as an adult cobra.

According to Christ; nobody is granted citizenship in the kingdom of God
until they first undergo a unique supernatural birth as per John 3:3-8. The
birth isn't optional; no, according to the language and grammar of Christ's
statement, the birth is a must.

†. John 3:3 . . I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless
he is born again.

†. John 3:7 . .You should not be surprised at my saying you must be born
again.

So then, if God were to make an exception for infants in regards to the
unique birth, then Jesus would be found distributing false information and
misrepresenting his own Father. No, the lord and master of New Testament
Christianity is a man of integrity, and what he says is absolute: nobody can
either see nor enter the kingdom of God without first undergoing that unique
supernatural birth regardless of age, race, gender, color, celebrity status, or
religious preference.

While there's no question as to the necessity of that unique supernatural
birth, one has to ask: Where are deceased underage kids kept until they
grow up and become old enough to assume responsibility for their choices?
Personally I think they're taken to a sort of afterlife orphanage where they're
looked after until they come of age. The reason I suspect that is because of
something David said in the Old Testament after his little boy passed away.

"Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."
(2Sam 12:23)

I suppose it could be argued that David was only talking about his own
inevitable demise; but it's really not all that unreasonable to assume he was
speaking of a family reunion. For example when Jacob was told that his son
Joseph was dead; he replied:

"I will go down mourning to my son in sheol." (Gen 37:35)

"sheol" is often translated the grave; but it's primary meaning is the
netherworld-- an afterlife sphere where all the dead went in Jacob's day;
both the good dead and the bad dead. Sheol's equivalent in the New
Testament is the Greek word haides; and a very revealing view of it is given
at Luke 16:19-31 where the bad dead are depicted in misery, and the good
dead are depicted in comfort. If there really is an afterlife orphanage, then
surely it has to be located in the comfort zone where good people can be
trusted to care for underage children.

David's grief was extremely bitter when his son Absalom died (2Sam 18:32
19:4) but David didn't say the same thing about Absalom that he said about
his little boy. No mystery there seeing as how Absalom was not only of age,
but also quite incorrigible too.

I sincerely wish it were possible to guarantee that everything I've penned in
this post is the God's truth; but even so, it does offer a measure of hope to
parents who've lost their children to an early death. So I would highly
recommend that if they want to see their children again in favorable
circumstances that they take Jesus' instructions very seriously and look into
undergoing that unique supernatural birth while there's still time. Little
children may have an opportunity to undergo that birth in the afterlife; but
grown-ups don't. Just imagine non born-again parents and their born-again
children waving to each other across the gulf depicted at Luke 16:19-31 and
not being able to cross it for hugs and kisses. That would be sorrow,
disappointment, and regret beyond words; not only for the parents; but
their children too.


Buen Camino
/
 

kjw47

New Member
Feb 18, 2014
340
11
0
The wages of sin = death--once one dies those wages are paid--there will be a resurrection when Gods kingdom is in full control.
As for the Lazarus and richman story in your last paragraph---proves it is symbolism. Gods word teaches his Kingdom will do away with--mourning, outcrys pain and even death--- If one could see loved ones, like in that story--hearts would be filled with pain not happiness. There is no literal place of eternal suffering. Every one who knows God knows his justice scales are perfectly balanced--there is 0 injustice with God. Thus an impossibility for a literal hell too exist.
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,723
768
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
†. Matt 18:1-5 . . At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who then
is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Then Jesus called a little child to him,
set him in the midst of them, and said: Assuredly, I say to you, unless you
are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the
kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is
the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The koiné Greek word for "converted" in that passage is a bit particular. It
doesn't mean to change per se; but to turn around; and not just turn around
a little; as if to look behind you; but to turn completely around to either go
back or to face in the opposite direction.

In that particular instance; Jesus didn't say that minor children are eo ispo
citizens in the kingdom of God. He was only saying that in order for the
adults in that assembly to obtain citizenship in the kingdom of God, they
would have to relinquish their maturity and return to childhood; in other
words: stop the clock; viz: turn around and go back to where they came
from; in essence reversing the aging process; which of course is humanly
impossible.

FYI: no doubt Christ is actually the greatest in the kingdom of God; so if it is
your ambition to become the greatest, then your degree of humility will have
to meet and/or exceed his.

†. Matt 19:13-15 . .Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to
place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those
who brought them. Jesus said: Let the little children come to me, and do not
hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. When he
had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

There are well-meaning folk who insist that Matt 19:13-15 is a valid
circumvention of John 3:3-8 but of course their determination is futile. Minors
aren't eo ipso citizens of the kingdom simply by virtue of their age; especially
seeing as how Ps 58:3-5 testifies that minors are toxic from the moment of
birth. And also, John 3:3-8 and 1Cor 15:50 testify that natural-born humans
are by no means entering the kingdom until such a time as they first undergo
the unique supernatural birth about which the Lord spoke with Nicodemus.

I think that the most anybody should attempt to derive from Matt 19:13-15
is that the kingdom isn't an adults-only community; viz: restricted to grown
ups; but that anybody-- regardless of age, race, and or gender --may apply
for citizenship.


Buen Camino
/
 

kjw47

New Member
Feb 18, 2014
340
11
0
Webers_Home said:
.
†. Matt 18:1-5 . . At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who then
is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Then Jesus called a little child to him,
set him in the midst of them, and said: Assuredly, I say to you, unless you
are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the
kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is
the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The koiné Greek word for "converted" in that passage is a bit particular. It
doesn't mean to change per se; but to turn around; and not just turn around
a little; as if to look behind you; but to turn completely around to either go
back or to face in the opposite direction.

In that particular instance; Jesus didn't say that minor children are eo ispo
citizens in the kingdom of God. He was only saying that in order for the
adults in that assembly to obtain citizenship in the kingdom of God, they
would have to relinquish their maturity and return to childhood; in other
words: stop the clock; viz: turn around and go back to where they came
from; in essence reversing the aging process; which of course is humanly
impossible.

FYI: no doubt Christ is actually the greatest in the kingdom of God; so if it is
your ambition to become the greatest, then your degree of humility will have
to meet and/or exceed his.

†. Matt 19:13-15 . .Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to
place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those
who brought them. Jesus said: Let the little children come to me, and do not
hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. When he
had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

There are well-meaning folk who insist that Matt 19:13-15 is a valid
circumvention of John 3:3-8 but of course their determination is futile. Minors
aren't eo ipso citizens of the kingdom simply by virtue of their age; especially
seeing as how Ps 58:3-5 testifies that minors are toxic from the moment of
birth. And also, John 3:3-8 and 1Cor 15:50 testify that natural-born humans
are by no means entering the kingdom until such a time as they first undergo
the unique supernatural birth about which the Lord spoke with Nicodemus.

I think that the most anybody should attempt to derive from Matt 19:13-15
is that the kingdom isn't an adults-only community; viz: restricted to grown
ups; but that anybody-- regardless of age, race, and or gender --may apply
for citizenship.


Buen Camino
/

I believe it means to become like a child---teachable.
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,723
768
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Though natural-born minor children cannot enter the kingdom of God
without first undergoing the unique supernatural birth about which Jesus
spoke at John 3:3-8; that doesn't preclude the possibility of their being
taken to the paradise to which Jesus and his fellow prisoner went when they
died on their crosses as per Luke 23:40-43; or didn't I already mention
something to that effect in post #1?

According to Matt 12:40 and Acts 2:25-32, Jesus and the other guy didn't go
up to heaven when they died; but instead descended to an afterlife location
somewhere deep in the earth. I'm guessing it was the very same place
where Abraham and Lazarus were residing in comfort as per Luke 16:19-31.


Buen Camino
/
 

kjw47

New Member
Feb 18, 2014
340
11
0
Webers_Home said:
.
Though natural-born minor children cannot enter the kingdom of God
without first undergoing the unique supernatural birth about which Jesus
spoke at John 3:3-8; that doesn't preclude the possibility of their being
taken to the paradise to which Jesus and his fellow prisoner went when they
died on their crosses as per Luke 23:40-43; or didn't I already mention
something to that effect in post #1?

According to Matt 12:40 and Acts 2:25-32, Jesus and the other guy didn't go
up to heaven when they died; but instead descended to an afterlife location
somewhere deep in the earth. I'm guessing it was the very same place
where Abraham and Lazarus were residing in comfort as per Luke 16:19-31.


Buen Camino
/

Gods word teaches Jesus went to hell( grave) for 3 days---no wheres else.
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,723
768
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Abraham's location isn't such a bad alternative to heaven; I mean: he
described it as comfortable (Luke 16:25) and Jesus described it as paradise
(Luke 23:43).

The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which
means: a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden. Most of the kids I've known in my
70+ years love parks; especially those with swings, merry-go-rounds,
monkey bars, sawdust pits, slides, swimming pools, see-saws, duck ponds,
green grass, petting zoos, picnic tables, drinking fountains, hay mazes,
hiking trails, creeks, ponds, rivers, and mud holes; trees to climb, places
for tag and hide and seek, and of course all the bugs, birds, and beasties

one might expect to encounter in a large outdoor area consisting of athletic
fields, playgrounds, savannas, bushes, pastures, and woodlots.

Some science wonk is surely going to protest that a park like the one I
describe couldn't possibly exist in the heart of the earth because it's too hot
down there. But what Mr.Wonk fails to appreciate is that the afterlife isn't a
natural world; rather; it's a supernatural world that can exist in and around
a natural world totally unseen and totally unaffected by physical materials
and processes.


Buen Camino
/
 

kjw47

New Member
Feb 18, 2014
340
11
0
Webers_Home said:
.
Abraham's location isn't such a bad alternative to heaven; I mean: he
described it as comfortable (Luke 16:25) and Jesus described it as paradise
(Luke 23:43).

The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which
means: a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden. Most of the kids I've known in my
70+ years love parks; especially those with swings, merry-go-rounds,
monkey bars, sawdust pits, slides, swimming pools, see-saws, duck ponds,
green grass, petting zoos, picnic tables, drinking fountains, hay mazes,
hiking trails, creeks, ponds, rivers, and mud holes; trees to climb, places
for tag and hide and seek, and of course all the bugs, birds, and beasties

one might expect to encounter in a large outdoor area consisting of athletic
fields, playgrounds, savannas, bushes, pastures, and woodlots.

Some science wonk is surely going to protest that a park like the one I
describe couldn't possibly exist in the heart of the earth because it's too hot
down there. But what Mr.Wonk fails to appreciate is that the afterlife isn't a
natural world; rather; it's a supernatural world that can exist in and around
a natural world totally unseen and totally unaffected by physical materials
and processes.


Buen Camino
/

No Jesus did not go to paradise the day he died--he went to hell( grave)
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise--- trinity translators erred with the comma placement--their bibles are filled with misleading errors.
 

RANDOR

Fishin Everyday
Apr 13, 2014
1,104
28
0
108
HEAVEN
kjw47 said:
No Jesus did not go to paradise the day he died--he went to hell( grave)
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise--- trinity translators erred with the comma placement--their bibles are filled with misleading errors.
Wow............we hold on to the nitty kritty :)

I myself don't really care if Jesus went shopping after His death.
satan is in the details..................forget the tiny stuff.

I wasn't there, you weren't there

One thing we do know for sure...............and that is Jesus forgives your sins......your sins.

and KJW47..............it's not by reading and studying that He does.............

It's experiencing it for youself.............real life.....no scriptures, no man taught theology, no hoping..

Real life changing experience.

Ya know what?.................I'll take the real life experience over the word any day :)

KJW47..................I keep tellin ya............you to can experience God's touch...tonight even.

And ya know what KJW47..............??????

You will know for sure it wasn't satan, the demons or devils........you will know for once and for sure it was your Jesus...your savior

YOUR FRIEND!!!! :)

kjw47.......IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU GUYS ARE RUNNING ON HOPE

Boy I hope this or that happens, I hope I'm good enough

Kick the hope to the curve, shake satan down

And come to know............

I've been praying for you KJW47...........so ya really got no where to hide.....you will be coming to Christ.........you will fall on your knees.

So come on..........it's over..........Jesus is knocking now on your heart.

YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa go get him Jesus.

ya see, I don't hope KJW47 comes to the Lord..................I know :)
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,723
768
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
kjw47 said:
No Jesus did not go to paradise the day he died--he went to hell( grave)
According to Matt 12:40, Jesus went to the heart of the earth when he died.
Well; his grave wasn't in the heart of the earth; it was on the surface of the
earth; and in point of fact, his grave wasn't even in the earth's soil, it was
above the earth's soil in a rock.

At some point during Jonah's three-day nautical adventure, he went to a place

called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he described as the roots of the mountains
(Jonah 2:6) Well; mountains aren't rooted in the bowels of fish; they're rooted
in the bowels of the earth. So then, the only way that Jonah could be in the
bowels of a fish and at the same time in the bowels of the earth is if he and
his body parted company. As Jonah, so Jesus.

Buen Camino
/
 

kjw47

New Member
Feb 18, 2014
340
11
0
Webers_Home said:
According to Matt 12:40, Jesus went to the heart of the earth when he died.
Well; his grave wasn't in the heart of the earth; it was on the surface of the
earth; and in point of fact, his grave wasn't even in the earth's soil, it was
above the earth's soil in a rock.

At some point during Jonah's three-day nautical adventure, he went to a place

called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he described as the roots of the mountains
(Jonah 2:6) Well; mountains aren't rooted in the bowels of fish; they're rooted
in the bowels of the earth. So then, the only way that Jonah could be in the
bowels of a fish and at the same time in the bowels of the earth is if he and
his body parted company. As Jonah, so Jesus.

Buen Camino
/
Jonah 2:2--is a metaphor--- Jonah was alive--But it seemed hopeless like death would be 100% for sure that is likened to being in Sheol already but he wasn't.--Sheol( Hebrew) = Hades-( greek) = the grave.
Jesus went to the grave for 3 days--no more--no less.
RANDOR said:
Wow............we hold on to the nitty kritty :)

I myself don't really care if Jesus went shopping after His death.
satan is in the details..................forget the tiny stuff.

I wasn't there, you weren't there

One thing we do know for sure...............and that is Jesus forgives your sins......your sins.

and KJW47..............it's not by reading and studying that He does.............

It's experiencing it for youself.............real life.....no scriptures, no man taught theology, no hoping..

Real life changing experience.

Ya know what?.................I'll take the real life experience over the word any day :)

KJW47..................I keep tellin ya............you to can experience God's touch...tonight even.

And ya know what KJW47..............??????

You will know for sure it wasn't satan, the demons or devils........you will know for once and for sure it was your Jesus...your savior

YOUR FRIEND!!!! :)

kjw47.......IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU GUYS ARE RUNNING ON HOPE

Boy I hope this or that happens, I hope I'm good enough

Kick the hope to the curve, shake satan down

And come to know............

I've been praying for you KJW47...........so ya really got no where to hide.....you will be coming to Christ.........you will fall on your knees.

So come on..........it's over..........Jesus is knocking now on your heart.

YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa go get him Jesus.

ya see, I don't hope KJW47 comes to the Lord..................I know :)

There isn't one living on earth who has come to Jesus unless they live to do this 24/7--Matt 6:33---his = YHWH(Jehovah)--the one Jesus taught each must know him and know Jesus to get eternal life-John 17:1-6--verse 6 = YHWH( Jehovah) THE ONLY TRUE GOD Jesus said. Not one is known by Jesus unless they are doing these things daily-Matt 7:21-23
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,723
768
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
kjw47 said:
Jonah 2:2--is a metaphor
The book of Jonah may be a fictional story to you; but it is not a fictional
story to me.


kjw47 said:
Jonah was alive
The whole time? No, not the whole time. In point of fact, if his testimony is
studied with care, its readily seen that Jonah had drowned before the fish found
him.


kjw47 said:
Jesus went to the grave for 3 days
According to Matt 12:40, Jesus was in the heart of the earth. There are no
graves down there. All graves are up on the surface of the earth.

There are people who refuse to believe that humans continue to exist beyond
the demise of their bodies. Are you perchance one of those people?


Buen Camino
/
 

kjw47

New Member
Feb 18, 2014
340
11
0
Webers_Home said:
The book of Jonah may be a fictional story to you; but it is not a fictional
story to me.



The whole time? No, not the whole time. In point of fact, if his testimony is
studied with care, its readily seen that Jonah had drowned before the fish found
him.



According to Matt 12:40, Jesus was in the heart of the earth. There are no
graves down there. All graves are up on the surface of the earth.

There are people who refuse to believe that humans continue to exist beyond
the demise of their bodies. Are you perchance one of those people?


Buen Camino
/
I never said the story of Jobnah wasn't real---I said his usage of Sheol----only looked like he would meet death in his mind. And that is why he used that term. He wasn't in Sheol--he was in the belly of a whale. If he couldn't get out he would have made it to Sheol.