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Yes, those nations were the enemies. Why didn't God say to love them instead of destroying them?lforrest said:Exodus 23:33
Back in that day the development of Israel held parallels with a person's spiritual journey. The nations were like corrupting influences. I don't know the details but a pattern is there.
The Lords advice regarding corrupting influences? Flee from sin... Fellowship with the world is enmity towards God.
Do you mean to ask why – given the theological claim that God is unchanging - the Bible often presents us with (seemingly) contradicting pictures about God and how we are to figure out which picture is more accurate?Stranger said:Junobet
But God could just as easily said 'love your enemies' as Israel entered the promised land. Why didn't he?
Stranger
So, you're stance is that what is recorded is not actual history? And , that is because it doesn't agree with you're idea of God.junobet said:Do you mean to ask why – given the theological claim that God is unchanging - the Bible often presents us with (seemingly) contradicting pictures about God and how we are to figure out which picture is more accurate?
Well, I suppose most posters here would prefer an explanation such as that of progressive revelation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Christianity)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1203.cfm
My own stance would be similar, but slightly different, in that my branch of Christianity thinks the Israelites’ ancestral tales speak less of actual history and more of a small people’s search for identity and spiritual journey towards God. While on this journey God revealed many great insights to the Biblical authors, but to begin with quite often their vision was still blurred and sometimes they got things plain wrong because of the “hardness of (their) hearts” (Comp.: Mt. 19:8). So personally I don’t believe God ever ordered genocide. I am well aware though, that many fundamentalists here will find this stance close to blasphemous.
But what probably all Christians can agree on is that we find the absolute self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ, who is God. And Jesus wasn’t at all the kind of Messiah the Jews expected from their study of their Holy Scriptures. He did not achieve His victory by becoming a military leader who defeated the Roman Empire and slayed all pagans. He achieved His victory over sin and death by letting Himself be crucified by the Romans, and shows His own love for His enemies by asking for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him.
So for Christians to love our enemies is the moral code to follow. There's no question about that.
They were made into an example.Stranger said:Yes, those nations were the enemies. Why didn't God say to love them instead of destroying them?
Stranger
Indeed they were an example.lforrest said:They were made into an example.
Also consider we were once enemies of God ourselves. We are to show grace to our enemies as they too may come to faith in Jesus. Then they would cease to be God's enemy.
But the invisible powers that drive people to be enemies will remain God's enemy. It is like we are a territory that is fought over and conquered by the Lord's army. Why destroy a territory when you can conquer it instead? (Ephesians 6:12) The real enemy is not to be loved.
I agree. But there are many Christians who think you should do just that.דוד חֵן (David) said:Love your enemy ≠ let your enemy slaughter you.
I agree. And if God is going to establish a nation of His own people, there will be spiritual and physical warfare. And if both spiritual and physical warfare are necessary to create such a nation, then it has to be true that both are necessary to maintain such a nation.lforrest said:God also knows the limit of grace, and understands the tendency of people to sin. If Israel fell into idolatry with the strict command to destroy the nations before them, how quickly would they have fallen if permitted peaceful coexistence.
Peaceful coexistence would not be possible even if Israel were able to resist the temptation of idolatry. When spiritual warfare rages it will spill over into corporeal conflict. The other nations would have waged war against the Jews if they were not able to corrupt them.
Why would God say He did something when He did not do it? How does that even makes sense in your mind? I'm sure you've heard the saying "The Bible isnt trail mix. You cant pick and choose what parts you want"junobet said:Do you mean to ask why – given the theological claim that God is unchanging - the Bible often presents us with (seemingly) contradicting pictures about God and how we are to figure out which picture is more accurate?
Well, I suppose most posters here would prefer an explanation such as that of progressive revelation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Christianity)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1203.cfm
My own stance would be similar, but slightly different, in that my branch of Christianity thinks the Israelites’ ancestral tales speak less of actual history and more of a small people’s search for identity and spiritual journey towards God. While on this journey God revealed many great insights to the Biblical authors, but to begin with quite often their vision was still blurred and sometimes they got things plain wrong because of the “hardness of (their) hearts” (Comp.: Mt. 19:8). So personally I don’t believe God ever ordered genocide. I am well aware though, that many fundamentalists here will find this stance close to blasphemous.
But what probably all Christians can agree on is that we find the absolute self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ, who is God. And Jesus wasn’t at all the kind of Messiah the Jews expected from their study of their Holy Scriptures. He did not achieve His victory by becoming a military leader who defeated the Roman Empire and slayed all pagans. He achieved His victory over sin and death by letting Himself be crucified by the Romans, and shows His own love for His enemies by asking for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him.
So for Christians to love our enemies is the moral code to follow. There's no question about that.
If you consider the economy of saving souls, it is better to protect your own people first so they have the opertunity to be saved. If we consider personal enemies it makes more sense to turn the other cheek, as they may be turned by your atypical behavior. But never are we to hate any enemy.Stranger said:I agree. And if God is going to establish a nation of His own people, there will be spiritual and physical warfare. And if both spiritual and physical warfare are necessary to create such a nation, then it has to be true that both are necessary to maintain such a nation.
And to maintain a nation as such, a military is necessary as is a police force, as is the death penalty. But then others will say the Christian is to turn the other cheek. You must love your enemies as Christ said. You're not supposed to kill.
But God who said thou shalt not kill told Israel to destroy her enemies. Thus it is not a blanket commandment. It doesn't mean there is not a time to kill. It doesn't mean in every instance you turn the other cheek.
Stranger
So you think David was wrong in hating the enemies of God? ( Ps. 139:20-22) And he wasn't just viewing things in a 'spiritual' sense. Or, was God wrong in hating Esau? (Malachi 1:2-3,Rom. 9:13)lforrest said:If you consider the economy of saving souls, it is better to protect your own people first so they have the opertunity to be saved. If we consider personal enemies it makes more sense to turn the other cheek, as they may be turned by your atypical behavior. But never are we to hate any enemy.
I believe putting the Kingdom first gives us the proper perspective to judge when to turn the cheek or defend ourselves and others.
Im asking you. Was David wrong in hating the enemies of God? Your crawfishing.lforrest said:It is for God to judge David. He was not given the teachings from Jesus Christ that we now take for granted.
God is also permitted to hate who he wants. He knows who will repent and who will not. His anger slowly builds even while he blesses those who hate him.
Well, Born-Again, Charles Hodge most certainly did not use the word “progressive” in the way that it sounds like to you. I’m told many Conservative US Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are rather fond of his theological views:Born_Again said:Why would God say He did something when He did not do it? How does that even makes sense in your mind? I'm sure you've heard the saying "The Bible isnt trail mix. You cant pick and choose what parts you want"
I like the use of the word "progressive" Gay rights are supposedly "progressive" as well.
No, it is because my church (good old German Lutheran/Reformed/United) takes the Bible seriously enough to throw its best academics at it to get a better understanding. We tend to accept their findings even when we happen to find them to contradict our traditions. In the case of the Book of Joshua pretty much all scholars agree that it is wildly unhistorical and that there was no such thing as the conquest of Canaan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joshua#Historical_and_archaeological_evidenceStranger said:So, you're stance is that what is recorded is not actual history? And , that is because it doesn't agree with you're idea of God.
First of all I don’t share the cold modern day disdain for fiction but stand in awe of the deep divine truths fiction and poetry can convey. Secondly, if you want to find out what level of historicity to expect from a given text, you’ll first have to look at its genre. Of all the books of the Bible the Gospels and Acts come closest to the kind of info that we in the 21th century would expect from a historian.But then you want to give me Scripture to support your view of God. If I can't believe what God said He did to the enemies of Israel, why should I believe what you say God is doing?
Because love of enemy wasn’t high on the list of virtues of those who wrote and composed the Book of Joshua at around out 600 BC. Their intent was to point out their God’s power in order to establish Israel’s identity as a nation as opposed to the tribes and nations surrounding them. They were divinely inspired in many ways, but they did not have the full revelation of Jesus Christ yet.God never told Joshua to love your enemies. Why?
Stranger