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Featured Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Zachary, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Thou hast missed part 2 ...
    1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to NOT love his fellow believers
    he continues to not be of God.


    “Little children, let no one deceive you.
    He who practices righteousness is righteous,
    just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
    and the children of the devil are manifest:
    Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God,
    NOR is he who does NOT love his brothers and sisters.”

    (1 John 3:7-10, NLT)
    .
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I would say, to the title of the thread, that it should be taken in reverse order.

    If you are truly saved to the point of being eternally secure, then you will love Jesus enough to obey Him.
     
  3. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    This is true for many true believers ...
    but it is NOT true for many eternally-secure believers
    who believe in OSAS and go along merrily sinning their way to hell.

    And it also true that there are many NT verses ...
    which say that one must be obedient to Christ to be saved.

    The BIG question for you is ... Dost thou believest in ALL of the NT verses?
    .
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I don't find any verses that truly say such a thing.

    And those who believe in OSAS, that doesn't mean that they are necessarily recipients of the blessing that they have believed in. They may believe in OSAS, and yet not be eternally secure.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I find that the verses teach that if you are truly born again, you will be obedient to Christ.

    But they do not place obedience as being a condition for salvation.

    That would be salvation by works, refuted by Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6.
     
    atpollard likes this.
  6. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    If you didn't present the Reader's Digest Abridged Version of the quote, it would be clearer that you have the horse driving the cart and the farmer pulling it.

    "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - Jesus

    "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep"
    • Please note that Jesus TOLD us WHY they do not believe.
    • "You are not my sheep BECAUSE you do not believe" = Something Jesus did not say!
    • Jesus said that the reason that they don't believe is BECAUSE they are not his sheep.
    • You skipped over the part where Jesus said how His sheep became His sheep ... hint: it was not by doing good works and it was not by mustering up some faith on their own ... His Father (that would be God the Father) GAVE His sheep to Him and those who do not believe were not His sheep; were not given to Him by the Father.
    "My sheep hear My voice"
    • His sheep are already His sheep.
    • This says nothing about how one becomes one of his sheep
    • It is about what His sheep do ... so I agree that the Saints of Christ hear Jesus voice.
    "I know them"
    • Not about what we do.
    • All about what God does.
    • Jesus knows his sheep ... not just about us, but Jesus and the Saints are in a relationship.
    "they follow Me"
    • Once again, it is not the unsaved who choose to follow Christ ... the father gave the sheep to Him.
    • Once we belong to Christ and we hear His voice (as our Lord and LORD), and He knows us, then we gladly follow where he leads.

    Your "3 conditions" are no conditions at all.

    The father Gives us to the son.
    The Son calls us and we hear Him.
    The Son knows us and we get to know Him.
    The Son leads and we follow.

    We belong to the Son the moment the Father gave us, not after years of following the Son.
    Sheep do not have the power of veto at a stock auction: we belong to the One that paid the price to purchase us.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    That would be found in Romans 5:2...we have access into this grace wherein we stand by faith.
     
  8. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Tomorrow I'll give you some of the verses.
     
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I'll be waiting...
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Right chapter, wrong verse. That is AFTER we are His sheep.

    Romans 5:6-11
    6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved [fn]by His life. 11 And not only this, [fn]but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

    WHEN: “while we were still helpless” and “while we were yet sinners” and “while we were enemies”.

    WHAT: “Christ died” and “God demonstrates His own love toward us”.

    HOW: “through the death of His Son”.

    THE RESULT: “we were reconciled to God”.

    CONCLUSION: It is all about what God does and not what we do.

    Soli Deo Gloria (All Glory to God Alone)
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Our response of faith (to what God does in relating the gospel message to us) is clearly the means by which we gain access into grace.
     
  12. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Please consider this ...
    There are many NT verses which explain the hopeless condition of mankind.
    I believe I have about 30 of them.
    Satan has blinded the minds of people, etc.
    Unbelievers can only see the gospel as foolishness, etc.
    They don't choose to see it as foolishness ... they just can't help it.

    You know where this leads, right?
    God must give them a seed of faith ... so they can believe!
    Check out Lydia in Acts ... He opened her heart so she could believe Paul.
    This is God's grace (and mercy and compassion).
    His grace comes first.
    Then, it's all about how we respond to it.
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    We have access into grace through our faith according to Romans 5:2; as well as an accurate understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9.

    Therefore faith comes first.

    Now, there may be different kinds of grace. Grace is needed if the Father is going to draw us to Christ. But this is not saving grace; though it comes prior to salvation.

    I would say, though, that we have access to saving grace through our faith according to the verses in question.
     
  14. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Your above I agree with ... nice going!
    Initial grace is not saving grace because salvation is a process.
    .
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Justification is a one-time event...sanctification is a process but its fulness can be a one-time event...glorification is a one-time event.
     
  16. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Which is what I said.
     
  17. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Good old irrestible grace.
     
  18. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

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    I will be happy to believe the Bible if you’ll show me where God explains how man was different starting in chapter 4.
    God created man and woman good.
    Good man and good woman chose to act upon good mans God given natural desires instead of following God’s will.
    Good man sinned by doing that.
    Chapter 4
    2 more good men created through the natural process God created.
    1 good man chose to follow his own desires instead of Gods will. He sinned.
    Other good man chose to follow Gods will. He is described as a man of faith.
    Please show me where the change took place.

    James describes how man sins...
    James 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
    This is how it happened in Gen 1 and nothing has changed in 6000 years.

    I do believe the pastor repented after he got caught. The question is...if he would have died during that year of adultery, would he have been saved? You’re a Baptist, right?
    I say absolutely not. But, I have to confess, that him being a Baptist, I do not believe he had obeyed the gospel in the first place.
     
  19. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Yes. John shows those who continue to not obey God, continue to not be of God.
     
  20. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Below (in blue) is what you posted:

    "As salvation is a free gift, who gets that gift is under the control of the giver.

    Those who have recieved the gift want it and a relationship with Jesus so they will naturaly want to obey him as an expression of their love for him
    ."

    First, God, the gift Giver, does not decided for men which men will or will not receive HIs free gift of grace, then those that first receive grace THEN obey. Men who of their own free will choose to conditonally obey God are the recipients of God's gift.

    Those who follow Luther's "faith only" philosophy get it backwards. In order to provide cover for Luther's 'faith only' they try and find a way for a man to first unconditionally receive God's grace THEN one can obey.

    When the Bible has obedience to God's will comes FIRST since it is a necessary condition that must be met BEFORE one receives God free gift of grace:

    Bible:-----conditionally obey first>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then receive grace
    Luther:---unconditionally receive grace first>>>>>>>>>>>then obey
     
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