Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

[Ernest T. Bass]

As salvation is a free gift, who gets that gift is under the control of the giver.

Those who have recieved the gift want it and a relationship with Jesus so they will naturaly want to obey him as an expression of their love for him.

If God made His free gift of grace UNconditional, then all men would Unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11. But since God made His free gift of grace conditional, only those that meet the condition (obedience- Hebrews 5:9) receive the gift. So if one is to be saved, he will have to be obedient.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You have demonstrated that walking in disobedience is proof of an unsaved status.
That does not necessarily mean that obedience is a prerequisite for salvation.
It is equally possible that obedience is a “fruit” of salvation.

1 John 3:10 those who continue to not do righteousness continue to not be of God. Therefore the only way one can be of God is by doing righteousness:
--Peter says in Acts of the Apostles 10:35 those who "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God.
--Paul wrote of "obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16. If one is not serving 'obedience unto righteousness' then one is serving "si unto death".
--There is no example anywhere under the NT where an impenitent unrighteous person was saved, was of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

According to Ephesians 2 and Romans 9, obedience is not possible without salvation.

Neither chapter put salvation before obedience, that idea contradicts many, many verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation. Again, Paul says "obedience UNTO righteousness" and NOT "obedience because one is already righteous".

 

[atpollard]

1 John 3:10 those who continue to not do righteousness continue to not be of God. Therefore the only way one can be of God is by doing righteousness:
--Peter says in Acts of the Apostles 10:35 those who "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God.
--Paul wrote of "obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16. If one is not serving 'obedience unto righteousness' then one is serving "si unto death".
--There is no example anywhere under the NT where an impenitent unrighteous person was saved, was of God.

Neither chapter put salvation before obedience, that idea contradicts many, many verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation. Again, Paul says "obedience UNTO righteousness" and NOT "obedience because one is already righteous".

The obvious question is how much personal "righteousness" is enough?
The imputed righteousness of Christ is perfect and absolute, but you are advocating a measure of self-righteousness to qualify for salvation and I am concerned how much I am allowed to miss the mark of complete perfection by. I am sure that I am not living in complete and perfect obedience like Jesus did.

So much for trusting Romans 10:9 ... I knew just trusting in Christ to forgive me sounded too good to be true.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The obvious question is how much personal "righteousness" is enough?
The imputed righteousness of Christ is perfect and absolute, but you are advocating a measure of self-righteousness to qualify for salvation and I am concerned how much I am allowed to miss the mark of complete perfection by. I am sure that I am not living in complete and perfect obedience like Jesus did.

So much for trusting Romans 10:9 ... I knew just trusting in Christ to forgive me sounded too good to be true.

The Bible spells out "how much righteousness" is enough to be saved:
belief John 8:24
repentance Luke 13:3
confession Matthew 10:32-33
baptism Mark 16:16
then one is accepted with God.

I never said anything about one being saved thru "self-righteousness" but one is saved by doing "God's righteousness".

 

[CNKW3]

What about Adam and Eve?

• [Genesis 2:7, 22, 25] 7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. ... 22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. ... 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

God made Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 2. Adam and Eve were created without the shame of "original sin".

But yet they still sinned. How is that possible without the “shame of original sin”. You mean a pure person can actually CHOOSE to be disobedient? NO WAY

Adam and Eve exercised their free will to choose to disobey God in Genesis chapter 3 and immediately became aware of the shame of the "original sin" [Gen 3:7]. God cursed Adam because of his "original sin" - we inherit the Adamic Curse. We are not born with the same pre-curse non-fallen nature that Adam and Eve had in Genesis 2.

See, you guessed wrong about my answer. I went to scripture like Calvinists like to. Now why don't you explain to me, from scripture, how nothing changed at the fall if you believe that we have the same nature as the Adam and Eve in Genesis Chapter 1 and 2 when the whole world was "very good" [Genesis 1:31].

You are not getting away with dodging the question..
Adam and Eve were pure. You just said so above. They sinned! Why?
According to your doctrine they should not have sinned not being under the curse.
Answer the question.

They CHOSE to sin without “the curse” as you say.
What is different with us today?
We sin? Why? Because we too CHOOSE to.

 

[Zachary]

Yes, the following trilogy is supposed to transform us:
-- the indwelling Holy Spirit
-- we are new creations
-- we have the full Scriptures

“Is supposed to”, or does?

I'm not sure that the work of the Holy Spirit is 100% successful
in transforming the lives of all BACs ... who have free will.

Perhaps all of the many warning verses in the NT
are there to help ensure that most BACs will make it
... as opposed to the idea that ...
the warnings prove some will not make it.

Razbeerishlee? (Bulgarian for "Dost thou understand?")
.

 

[Zachary]

I would argue that ONLY born-again people have free-will. The rest are slaves to their sins and fallen nature.

I was talking in general terms ... all men have free will.
Just IMO, not all men have the free will to choose Jesus and His gospel.
God must provide a spark of belief/faith.
An easy example is Lydia in Acts.
.

 

[atpollard]

You are not getting away with dodging the question..
Adam and Eve were pure. You just said so above. They sinned! Why?
According to your doctrine they should not have sinned not being under the curse.
Answer the question.

Calvinism doesn't deal with Adam and Eve. They are past changing their eternal destiny. Calvinism deals with those still living.

(T) [Total Inability] Nobody is able to live Holy or earn salvation.
(U) [Unconditional Election] God chose to save some for reasons having nothing to do with the people deserving it, but "just because" God chose them.
(L) [Limited Atonement] Jesus then DIED to make absolutely certain that each and every sin of each and every person chosen by God was forgiven and that person WILL spend eternity with Him.
(I) [Irresistible Grace] Knowing that mankind are a stubborn as mules and stupid as sheep, God left nothing to chance and DRAWS those he chose beforehand to Jesus and gives them a new heart that wants what God wants.
(P) [Perseverance of the Saints] With a little help from the Holy Spirit, God will make darn sure that He finishes what He started.

I don't see how this really applies to the question of Adam and Eve.
I don't see how I have avoided answering your question.
I don't see how Adam and Eve prove anything about our ability to choose.

If you have complete free will, then just CHOOSE to live a sinless life like Jesus did and see if that will get you into heaven.
I know that ship sailed for me a LONG time ago, so I am going to stick with the Romans 10:9-10 plan of submitting to and believing in God.

 

[Zachary]

You have demonstrated that walking in disobedience is proof of an unsaved status.
That does not necessarily mean that obedience is a prerequisite for salvation.
It is equally possible that obedience is a “fruit” of salvation.

It should be obvious that:
-- obedience is NOT a prerequisite for initially being saved
-- obedience IS a prerequisite for finally being saved
I.E. salvation is a process.
.

 

[Zachary]

As salvation is a free gift, who gets that gift is under the control of the giver.
Those who have received the gift want it and a relationship with Jesus
so they will naturally want to obey him as an expression of their love for him.

Just IMO, no one receiving a free gift is under the control of he giver.
MANY who have received the free gift of salvation have NOT wanted to obey God.
.

 

[Zachary]

Paul says "obedience UNTO righteousness" and NOT "obedience because one is already righteous".

This refers to Romans 6 ...

AFTER you become born-again, you have a choice to be:
-- a slave of sin unto eternal death
or
-- a slave of obedience unto righteousness

Then, you can choose to be:
-- a slave of righteousness unto holiness
.

 

[Philip James]

Trouble is ... most believers do NOT do this,
and we have corrupt pastors who have
various reasons for NOT telling us the Truth.
..

Hello Zachary,

Hosea 4:6 comes to mind..

My people perish for want of knowledge! Since you have rejected knowledge, I will reject you from my priesthood; Since you have ignored the law of your God, I will also ignore your sons.

Son of David, have mercy on us!

Peace be with you!

 

[Finesse]

“因为神爱世人，甚至将他的独生子赐给他们，叫一切信他的，不至灭亡，反得永生。”（约翰福音3:16）

 

[farouk]

“因为神爱世人，甚至将他的独生子赐给他们，叫一切信他的，不至灭亡，反得永生。”（约翰福音3:16）

Hi; this must be John 3.16 in Mandarin, right?

 

[quietthinker]

“And we know that God causes everything to work together
for the good of those who love God and are called
according to his purpose for them.” (Romans 8:28)
These were predestined, called, justified, and glorified (8:29-30).

Those who truly love God obey Him by resisting temptations to sin!

“God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation.
Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God
has promised to those who love Him.” (James 1:12)
Believers who endure temptation:
● love God
● chose to be obedient to Jesus (see below)
● will receive the crown of (eternal) life

“Temptation comes from our own desires,
which entice us and drag us away.
These desires give birth to sinful actions.
And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
So, don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.” (James 1:14-16)
Believers who do NOT endure temptation:
● will fall into habitual sin
● will receive spiritual (eternal) death …
UNLESS they sincerely repent (stop their habitual sinning).

Those who really love Jesus obey Him
“Those who accept My commandments and obey them
are the ones who love Me.” (John 14:21)
“All who love Me will do what I say.” (John 14:23)
“Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.” (John 14:24)
“When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love” (John 15:10)
“You are my friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)
Who gets to heaven who does not love Jesus,
who is not His friend,
and who does not obey His commandments?

Slaves of sin -- OR -- slaves of obedience
“… if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?”
(Romans 6:16)

“… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:51)

“if you want to receive eternal life,
keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17)

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments

have life with God. But there is NO (eternal) life in those

who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, which was quoted as Scripture by early
Christian leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria)
.

Without holiness no man will see the Lord. The scripture is clear on this.

 

[CNKW3]

Calvinism doesn't deal with Adam and Eve. They are past changing their eternal destiny. Calvinism deals with those still living.

(T) [Total Inability] Nobody is able to live Holy or earn salvation.
(U) [Unconditional Election] God chose to save some for reasons having nothing to do with the people deserving it, but "just because" God chose them.
(L) [Limited Atonement] Jesus then DIED to make absolutely certain that each and every sin of each and every person chosen by God was forgiven and that person WILL spend eternity with Him.
(I) [Irresistible Grace] Knowing that mankind are a stubborn as mules and stupid as sheep, God left nothing to chance and DRAWS those he chose beforehand to Jesus and gives them a new heart that wants what God wants.
(P) [Perseverance of the Saints] With a little help from the Holy Spirit, God will make darn sure that He finishes what He started.

I don't see how this really applies to the question of Adam and Eve.
I don't see how I have avoided answering your question.
I don't see how Adam and Eve prove anything about our ability to choose.

If you have complete free will, then just CHOOSE to live a sinless life like Jesus did and see if that will get you into heaven.
I know that ship sailed for me a LONG time ago, so I am going to stick with the Romans 10:9-10 plan of submitting to and believing in God.

Calvinism deals with the whole human race. That would include the first humans.

Adam and Eve were the first human beings. They breathed like we do. They had natural God given desires like we do. They were tempted like we are. They had the ability to choose like we do. And they chose to sin.

Adam and Eve were living breathing human beings. Created in the image of God. They were tempted, they chose to obey that temptation and they sinned.
We too are living breathing human beings. Created in the image of God. We are tempted, we also choose to obey that temptation and sin.
You said that living in sin is proof that a person was never really saved. But Adam and Eve were pure, in a saved state with God, and they still sinned. This type of teaching means we can never know who is really in a saved state with the lord because we have to wait and see if someday they just might have a year long affair with flute player like one baptist pastor I know of. I guess he preached for many years having never really been saved.

 

[atpollard]

Calvinism deals with the whole human race. That would include the first humans.

Adam and Eve were the first human beings. They breathed like we do. They had natural God given desires like we do. They were tempted like we are. They had the ability to choose like we do. And they chose to sin.

Adam and Eve were living breathing human beings. Created in the image of God. They were tempted, they chose to obey that temptation and they sinned.
We too are living breathing human beings. Created in the image of God. We are tempted, we also choose to obey that temptation and sin.
You said that living in sin is proof that a person was never really saved. But Adam and Eve were pure, in a saved state with God, and they still sinned.

You are ignoring the first three chapters of Genesis.
The world and people created in Genesis 1 were "very good". The world and people in Genesis 4 thru today are not. God explained what happened to change things. If you will not believe the word of God, what chance do I have to change your mind.

I leave you in the far more capable hands of the Holy Spirit to reveal why we are NOT like Adam and Eve in Genesis 1-2 but more like Adam after Genesis 3.

[QUOTE="CNKW3, post: 595073, member: 8181"This type of teaching means we can never know who is really in a saved state with the lord because we have to wait and see if someday they just might have a year long affair with flute player like one baptist pastor I know of. I guess he preached for many years having never really been saved.[/QUOTE]
The answer is both easy and hard. John explains it here ...

• [1Jo 2:1-29 NASB]
  
• 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world.
  
• 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
• 7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the Light and [yet] hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
  
• 12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
  
• 15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and [also] its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
  
• 18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
  
• 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
  
• 28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

It is SIMPLE if you are trusting in the strength and goodness of God.
It is IMPOSSIBLE if you are attempting it in your own strength.
Did the Baptist Pastor you know turn to the ADVOCATE in repentance, or did he go out from the Body and reveal that he was not OF the Body?
Those are the two choices every sinner faces: turn to Jesus or run from Jesus.

• "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - Jesus

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This refers to Romans 6 ...

AFTER you become born-again, you have a choice to be:
-- a slave of sin unto eternal death
or
-- a slave of obedience unto righteousness

Then, you can choose to be:
-- a slave of righteousness unto holiness
.

The Bible only gives man two choices: heaven or hell, saved or lost. Jesus says a man is either serving God (saved) or serving mammon (lost). Paul is pointing forth these two options in Romans 6:16:
1) serve sin unto death (lost)
2) obedience unto righteousness (saved)

Being saved requires an obedience unto righteousness/serving God and not serving sin/mammon.

Note the order of events in Romans 6:17-18:
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified becoming servants of righteousness

Paul put (2) obedience BEFORE (3) freed from sin/justification. The only way one can get out of serving sin unto death is to turn and start serving obedience unto righteousness. 1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to do unrighteousness he continues to not be of God.


For those who have allowed themselves to follow Luther's idea of "faith only", which are they serving? Sin unto death (lost)? Obedience unto righteousness (saved)?

 

[Zachary]

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand." - Jesus

Let us make it clear to everyone by highlighting 3 conditions in blue.

Please note that it has nothing to do with just simply "believing".
It has nothing to do with grace-only, hyper-grace, easy-grace, easy-believism, etc.
These popular doctrines are from the very pits of hell.

Do you hear Jesus' voice?

W. E. Vine says that "knew" in Matthew 7:23 means "approved of".
The 2 conditions in 7:23 are:
(1) doing the will of Father God, and (2) NOT practicing lawlessness.

Do you follow Jesus?

.