Luke 1:43

[theefaith]

I'm not sure I agree that Christ needed the immaculate conception for that purpose. Mary was not without sin. I do not think God needed man for assurance of Jesus Christ deity or a sinless life. On the surface your statement has some merit but with serious thought I can't see it.

Do you know what the immaculate conception is?

 

[TEXBOW]

I know the common understanding and just a bit about how Catholics think Mary was immaculately conceived without sin.

 

[theefaith]

I know the common understanding and just a bit about how Catholics think Mary was immaculately conceived without sin.

Good just making sure cos some confuse it with the miraculous conception of Jesus by the HS

 

[theefaith]

Lk 1:49 what things?

 

[TEXBOW]

Good just making sure cos some confuse it with the miraculous conception of Jesus by the HS

It's difficult to keep up with exactly what the Catholic faith believes. If history is an example those beliefs will change as time moves forward. Indulgences were a thing and now not so much, that Peter was the first Pope but apparently was not well received because he was married (I do not think that Peter was the Pope), Bishop Zavala was even less popular due to he having two wives, was he considered infallible? Crazy how many Popes have had to apologize for past actions of Popes who were infallible, scratch your head on that one. And we cannot forget about all those infants that were not baptized that went to hell for 1500 years. That is until those infallible Popes were corrected and now those babies are in limbo.

I can't wait to see what the Catholic Church changes next. Yes God has given us great things even though all have sinned and fallen short, even Mary.

 

[amadeus]

What could this verse possibly mean? Paul was conscious of the reality that as the early church grew in numbers as the gospel was preached, there would arise situations within the church where members of the community have unbelieving spouses whom they married prior to their conversion – creating these sort of these seemingly ‘impure’ marriages where one spouse was a ‘believer’ and the other was an ‘unbeliever’. Believing spouses often felt the tension in their marriages, and wondered whether the union with their spouses defiled them, defiled Christ, and defiled their children. Others began to even ponder whether to divorce their unbelieving spouses in order to find and marry a Christian partner.

Paul was not about to make the cross of Christ the trademark for homewrecking. It would bring great disrepute to Christ and his gospel if Christian spouses were infamously known by their neighbours for destroying their marriages by leaving their pagan husbands and wives for other men and women of the faith. This is why Paul says in verse 12 that if “any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her” (cf. 7:13). This marital union in no way defiles the believer or their children, “For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband” (7:14). What we see is the very opposite – the family home becomes set apart by the very presence of that Christian spouse.

I was not talking about the verse as related to others, but rather as it relates to what @theefaith said here:

that’s the purpose for the immaculate conception to prevent Christ from being contaminated with original sin

As per the verse I quoted if one parent is an undefiled believer the child is sanctified by that parent in spite of the other parent being a defiled unbeliever. Therefore, it was not necessary as @theefaith tried to say for the wife/mother [Mary] to be undefiled when we know that the Father was undefiled. Who was the Father of Jesus? Was He defiled?

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Matt 3:9 . . Do not presume to say to yourselves "We have Abraham as our
father." For I tell you: God can raise up children to Abraham from these
stones.

People made from stones would be even more miraculous than Jesus, viz:
they would have no biological parents at all-- neither father nor mother.

Would their circumstances make then free from original sin? No; because if
the stone people would be related to Abraham, then they'd also be related to
Adam, and in that relationship, Rom 5:12-21 applies.

It's very difficult to get across to the rank and file that the transmission of
original sin has always been solely by means of membership in Adam's family
rather than procreation.

Although I'm brave enough to defend this fact online, I'd never do so live in
a Sunday school class because I fear the protests would not only be
clamorous but also quite militant. Both sides of the aisle-- Catholic and
Protestant alike --have believed, and insisted for decades, that original sin is
propagated by parents.

So then, even if Jesus' mom had been preserved free of contamination by
original sin, her innocence would've failed to protect baby Jesus from
contamination because everybody got slammed all at once all together with
their shares of Adam's sin in real time on that historic day of infamy in Eden.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• 1Cor 7:12-13 . . If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be
pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which
hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her,
let her not leave him.

It's very common for marriages to start off on common ground, and then
later on to become religiously divided; like for instance when one of the
spouses gets converted while attending a Billy Graham crusade. As long as
the situation doesn't cause intolerable friction in the home, the couple should
stay together.

• 1Cor 7:14-15 . . For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and
the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children
would be unclean, but now they are holy.

According to Matt 5:32 and Matt 19:9, divorce and remarriage are holy only
if one of the spouses has been unfaithful. So; if a believing spouse divorces
their unbelieving spouse on the grounds of religious differences, and
remarries; then as far as the New Testament is concerned, any children
produced in a second marriage will be illegitimate.
_

 

[TEXBOW]

I was not talking about the verse as related to others, but rather as it relates to what @theefaith said here:



As per the verse I quoted if one parent is an undefiled believer the child is sanctified by that parent in spite of the other parent being a defiled unbeliever. Therefore, it was not necessary as @theefaith tried to say for the wife/mother [Mary] to be undefiled when we know that the Father was undefiled. Who was the Father of Jesus? Was He defiled?

Understood.

 

[theefaith]

It's difficult to keep up with exactly what the Catholic faith believes. If history is an example those beliefs will change as time moves forward. Indulgences were a thing and now not so much, that Peter was the first Pope but apparently was not well received because he was married (I do not think that Peter was the Pope), Bishop Zavala was even less popular due to he having two wives, was he considered infallible? Crazy how many Popes have had to apologize for past actions of Popes who were infallible, scratch your head on that one. And we cannot forget about all those infants that were not baptized that went to hell for 1500 years. That is until those infallible Popes were corrected and now those babies are in limbo.

I can't wait to see what the Catholic Church changes next. Yes God has given us great things even though all have sinned and fallen short, even Mary.

what? Really?

truth is immutable and irreformable!

and what church teaches is very plain: it’s dogma
Dogma is thee faith
There is a list of dogmas if you need it

No not correct, misinformation

Married or celibate priests is a disciple not doctrine
Discipline can change doctrine cannot

Infallible only applies to a narrow definition and is rare, only when teaching the universal church with apostolic authority on matters of faith or morals

The church never taught that unbaptized babies go to hell
They have no personal sin so cannot be condemned to hell, but they have original sin and so they cannot go to heaven, Jn 3:5 they need baptism but die without it and are simply committed to God’s mercy

indulgences are still widely practiced

it’s only apostate modernist anti-popes who do things like ask forgiveness for things that are not wrong in the first place, they placate and join every false sect and false religion

anymore questions or concerns just ask

 

[TEXBOW]

what? Really?

truth is immutable and irreformable!

and what church teaches is very plain: it’s dogma
Dogma is thee faith
There is a list of dogmas if you need it

No not correct, misinformation

Married or celibate priests is a disciple not doctrine
Discipline can change doctrine cannot

Infallible only applies to a narrow definition and is rare, only when teaching the universal church with apostolic authority on matters of faith or morals

The church never taught that unbaptized babies go to hell
They have no personal sin so cannot be condemned to hell, but they have original sin and so they cannot go to heaven, Jn 3:5 they need baptism but die without it and are simply committed to God’s mercy

indulgences are still widely practiced

it’s only apostate modernist anti-popes who do things like ask forgiveness for things that are not wrong in the first place, they placate and join every false sect and false religion

anymore questions or concerns just ask

History is very clear on the stance the Catholic Church took towards baptism of children. St. Augustine clearly taught starting in the fifth century that unbaptized babies go to hell. This "doctrine" was taught until the 1500's at which time they "changed" their "infallible" position that the babies are in Limbo. I'm not sure exactly what the Popes position is now but I think Limbo is now out of favor... The infallible Pope is changing the doctrine of the previous infallible Popes who had changed the doctrine of the infallible Pope before them. They asked Pope Formosus his position on the matter when he was on trial at the Vatican but for some reason he refused to answer. I understand he was brain dead at that moment.

 

[theefaith]

History is very clear on the stance the Catholic Church took towards baptism of children. St. Augustine clearly taught starting in the fifth century that unbaptized babies go to hell. This "doctrine" was taught until the 1500's at which time they "changed" their "infallible" position that the babies are in Limbo. I'm not sure exactly what the Popes position is now but I think Limbo is now out of favor... The infallible Pope is changing the doctrine of the previous infallible Popes who had changed the doctrine of the infallible Pope before them. They asked Pope Formosus his position on the matter when he was on trial at the Vatican but for some reason he refused to answer. I understand he was brain dead at that moment.

you need to find some documentation

Limbo is not a dogma or doctrine

truth is immutable and the church teaches the same doctrine for all time without error jn 16:13

The one true church’s teaching authority from Christ is without error!

A divine institution: founded by Christ on Peter and the holy apostles and their successors unto the end!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!

Christ and His church are one! Jn 15:1-5 Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Church has authority from Christ!

Church is free from all error!

Mt 16:18 & mt 18:18

Mt 28:19-20

Acts 1:17

acts 8:31 & 35

Lk 10:16

Jn 8:32

Jn 13:20

Jn 15:5

Jn 16:13

Jn 20:21-22

eph 2:20

acts 2:42

1 Tim 3:15

 

[TEXBOW]

you need to find some documentation

Limbo is not a dogma or doctrine

truth is immutable and the church teaches the same doctrine for all time without error jn 16:13

The one true church’s teaching authority from Christ is without error!

A divine institution: founded by Christ on Peter and the holy apostles and their successors unto the end!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!

Christ and His church are one! Jn 15:1-5 Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Church has authority from Christ!

Church is free from all error!

Mt 16:18 & mt 18:18

Mt 28:19-20

Acts 1:17

acts 8:31 & 35

Lk 10:16

Jn 8:32

Jn 13:20

Jn 15:5

Jn 16:13

Jn 20:21-22

eph 2:20

acts 2:42

1 Tim 3:15

Was the Catholic Church in error when it murdered fifty million people for Hersey? Was it in error when it help the Nazi criminals escape via the Rat Lines? Was it in error when it covered up the untold number of sexual abuse of boys? God is the only one without error. There are so many cases of the Catholic Church failures that it would take days to list them all. History is hard to bury.

 

[theefaith]

Was the Catholic Church in error when it murdered fifty million people for Hersey? Was it in error when it help the Nazi criminals escape via the Rat Lines? Was it in error when it covered up the untold number of sexual abuse of boys? God is the only one without error. There are so many cases of the Catholic Church failures that it would take days to list them all. History is hard to bury.

the church murdered none!

you may confuse the execution of justice by the state with murder, but not something the church does, the church only says that that are in error it’s up to the state to execute justice as scripture says
Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee forgood. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, arevenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

for heresy is treason against God and treason is punishable by death

the church actually saved thousands of Jews and soldiers in ww2 despite the Rome being controlled by the enemy, and it was the USA that did that anyway operation paper clip

The union Christ and His holy church or the unity of the holy church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles is such that it cannot be harmed by the sins of men!

Automatic excommunication is incured upon the exercise of the intellect and will to teach error or Hersey or to commit grave sin! Men are sinners, with a sin nature and free will, but we should choose that which is good and holy! Rom 6:13

So the bride is spotless and without blemish!

The members of Christ in communion with God and each other are in a state of sanctifying grace!

We deplore the sins and outrages of abuse, most of which is done by homo’s on young boys, in any group especially those calling themselves Christian, the communists began infiltration in the seminary’s in the 30’s and the modernist’s and homo’s in the 60’s and 70’s

This is a symptom of error and Hersey
Modernism or theological liberalism, of the modern apostasy and nowhere does the true church teach anyone to do these things, nor do the Protestant sects which have the same issues! And we don’t blame the Protestant sects or leaders!

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

anything more?

 

[theefaith]

The rotten tree of the so called reformation bringing forth rotten fruit of false doctrine of “Faith alone” & “Bible alone” pure spiritual blindness!

Socialism / naturalism is the fruit of the reformation! As well as modern atheism: reason apart from revealed Divine faith!
And
Fundamentalism: faith apart from reason!

These are the modern errors and the fruits of the so called reformation!

All of these are rebelling against Christ and his church, and against family, society, and civil government!
And again all proper authority!

The reformation is only an extension of Satan’s rebellion against God, Christ and His holy church!

The so called reformation is an evil tree putting forth Posionous fruit!

Doctrines of devils leading to rebellion against all Divinely revealed authority!

Protestant rebellion against the divinely instituted authority of the church!
Fundamentalist rebellion against reason!
Atheist rebellion against faith!
Socialism rebellion against marrige, and family, the fabric of society!
Communism rebellion against the divinely instituted authority of civil government, God given rights, and private property!

All the bitter fruits of the so called reformation! Better known as the great rebellion!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Lk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Mary brought forth the good fruit of salvation!

 

[theefaith]

Protestantism is unbiblical!

Faith alone! That means faith alone! Period!
No sacramentse ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
No repentance Lk 3:3
No suffering Mk 8:34 Mk 10:21 Phil 1:29
No hope rom 8:24
No charity 1 cor 13:2 1 cor 13:13
No love of God duet. 6:5
No grace Jn 1:16-17
No patience Heb 10:36
No nothing but faith alone!
Alone means alone!

Rom 8: 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13


And never “faith alone”!

Rev. 2 I know thy works! I thought faith alone is all that mattered?

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

How can salvation be by faith alone in Christ alone thru grace alone?

Faith alone?

1 cor 13:2 and 13:13, Phil 1:29, James 2:24 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 oppose faith alone!

Christ alone?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!

Grace alone?

Mk 16:16 faith and baptism!
Jn 3:5 water and the spirit! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 the promise of the father, sacred oath is a sacrament!

Not grace alone but, grace thru baptism of water and the spirit, and a new heart full of love of God!

Matt 5:7 merciful receive mercy
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven

Acts 22:15 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Jn 3:5 and Titus 3:5 born again refers to baptismal regeneration

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!


Paul never taught justification by “faith alone”!

Did not Paul write these scriptures?

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13:13

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Other scriptures opposing “faith alone”

Matt 5:7 mercy thru merciful
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven

 

[TEXBOW]

the church murdered none!

you may confuse the execution of justice by the state with murder, but not something the church does, the church only says that that are in error it’s up to the state to execute justice as scripture says
Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee forgood. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, arevenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

for heresy is treason against God and treason is punishable by death

the church actually saved thousands of Jews and soldiers in ww2 despite the Rome being controlled by the enemy, and it was the USA that did that anyway operation paper clip

The union Christ and His holy church or the unity of the holy church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles is such that it cannot be harmed by the sins of men!

Automatic excommunication is incured upon the exercise of the intellect and will to teach error or Hersey or to commit grave sin! Men are sinners, with a sin nature and free will, but we should choose that which is good and holy! Rom 6:13

So the bride is spotless and without blemish!

The members of Christ in communion with God and each other are in a state of sanctifying grace!

We deplore the sins and outrages of abuse, most of which is done by homo’s on young boys, in any group especially those calling themselves Christian, the communists began infiltration in the seminary’s in the 30’s and the modernist’s and homo’s in the 60’s and 70’s

This is a symptom of error and Hersey
Modernism or theological liberalism, of the modern apostasy and nowhere does the true church teach anyone to do these things, nor do the Protestant sects which have the same issues! And we don’t blame the Protestant sects or leaders!

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

anything more?

I'm sorry but excuses do not change the facts. I do not expect you to admit the Catholic Church owns these things. It really doesn't matter to me. I pray that you are saved by faith, a gift of grace from God. What label or denomination you identify as is of no importance in the body of Christ. I enjoy giving Catholics a hard time over their history. God is the only sinless and perfect one.

 

[theefaith]

Doctrine of heretics

The one true church founded by Christ on Peter the apostles and their successors verses the heretics, schismatics, and apostates!

Simon Magnus: the father of all heretics!
Condemned by Saint Peter!

Early church:
Gnostics: secret or hidden knowledge of salvation.
Novationism: extreme rightism (fundamentalism)
Arianism: Jesus was not divine, condemned at the first apostolic council of Nicea with the trinity defined!
iconoclasts: opposed the use of images and icons, they were condemned at the second apostolic council of Nicea!
Montanism: basically a early Pentecostal movement!

Middle Ages:
albigensians: duelist sin of Manichaeism
god of good (spiritual or light) and a god of evil. (matter or darkness)

Early Protestant rebellion:
Wycliffe: predestination and the Bible alone.
hus: opposed the papacy, Bible only authority.

Protestant revolt:
Luther:
waldensians:
Huguenots:
Tyndall:
calvin:
Henry 8 and Cranmer the anglicans:
All evangelicals, Pentecostals and fundamentalists:

Protestant theology, five Solas, opposes the church founded by christ on Peter and started their own churches opposed each other in authority, some more fundamentalist. Condemned at the great apostolic council of Trent!

All heretics teaching false doctrines claiming biblical authority by the power of the Holy Spirit!

The rebellious slavery of Heretical fundamentalism begets only a thick black Spiritual Darkness! With spiritual pride, presumption, and arrogance!

no hurry

 

[theefaith]

I'm sorry but excuses do not change the facts. I do not expect you to admit the Catholic Church owns these things. It really doesn't matter to me. I pray that you are saved by faith, a gift of grace from God. What label or denomination you identify as is of no importance in the body of Christ. I enjoy giving Catholics a hard time over their history. God is the only sinless and perfect one.

salvation requires faith and baptism
Mk 16:16 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38

mary was sinless
Gen 3:15
Lk 1:28
Rev 12:1

only Christ has authority to found the church, His church, one church all the rest are sects tradition of men
Matt 16:18-19 Jn 16:10

 

[theefaith]

There is no salvation in the camp of heretics only in and thru the church of Jesus Christ!