Reply to infant baptism
Infant baptism
This promise to you’re children!
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.
Acts 16:15 entire household baptized
(And it does not say accept infants!)
If part of the Christian initiation sacrament of baptism is Not possible then it is not required
That part is simply omitted, in the case of infants the parents pledge to teach the faith, and then at the age of reason they are confirmed.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!)
Luke 1:43
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Seeking to exalt your desire above the word and will of God is idolatry.
God does not desire for us to pray to Mary.
God's desire is for you to turn to His Son, the LORD, for Salvation.
[QUOTE="Bruce Atkinson, post: 1151037, member: 13223"
I am continually amazed about how effective the Roman Catholic Church is at brainwashing and controlling its membership. I was raised in the Episcopal church, which is essentially a Catholic church minus Latin, popes, nuns, transubstantiation, and, of course, Mary worship. I was not only an acolyte, but I married at Catholic and even went to church with her as well (lasted only 5 years). I was saved 5 years later when I read, heard, and believed the Truth...Gods' Word.
Reply
And I thought is was the fundamentalist that were so good at brainwashing!
Just mention Mary and the automatic fundamentalist response is idolatry / worship
“I was saved” really?
Matt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!
I am continually amazed about how effective the Roman Catholic Church is at brainwashing and controlling its membership. I was raised in the Episcopal church, which is essentially a Catholic church minus Latin, popes, nuns, transubstantiation, and, of course, Mary worship. I was not only an acolyte, but I married at Catholic and even went to church with her as well (lasted only 5 years). I was saved 5 years later when I read, heard, and believed the Truth...Gods' Word.
Reply
And I thought is was the fundamentalist that were so good at brainwashing!
Just mention Mary and the automatic fundamentalist response is idolatry / worship
“I was saved” really?
Matt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
A good tree!
Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!
A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!
A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
The RCC is one if not the most ritualistic religions in the world. I can't help but recall those who had the most trouble with Jesus during his early ministry were the religious zealots of the day. The RCC has taken its focus off the first love of the church, Jesus Christ. Jesus is simply not enough for the RCC. The only difference between the Pope (as in authority) and any church pastor in rural America is popularity. The Pope cannot intercede or bring you any closer to the word than a Pastor in a small Church. In fact, I would suggest the Pope would lead you away from the word. Jesus didn't get along very well with those ritualistic zealots.
what’s wrong with ritual? It is essential part of true religion!
the church has a divine mandate to teach the truth without error matt 18:17 matt 28:19 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
Socialism / naturalism is the fruit of the reformation! As well as modern atheism: reason apart from revealed Divine faith!
And
Fundamentalism: faith apart from reason!
These are the modern errors and the fruits of the so called reformation!
All of these are rebelling against Christ and his church, and against family, society, and civil government!
And again all proper authority!
And
Fundamentalism: faith apart from reason!
These are the modern errors and the fruits of the so called reformation!
All of these are rebelling against Christ and his church, and against family, society, and civil government!
And again all proper authority!
But the boldness of these bad men, which day by day more and more threatens civil society with destruction, and strikes the souls of all with anxiety and fear, finds its cause and origin in those poisonous doctrines which, spread abroad in former times among the people, like evil seed bore in due time such fatal fruit. For you know, venerable brethren, that that most deadly war which from the sixteenth century down has been waged by innovators against the Catholic faith, and which has grown in intensity up to today, had for its object to subvert all revelation, and overthrow the supernatural order, that thus the way might be opened for the discoveries, or rather the hallucinations, of reason alone. This kind of error, which falsely usurps to itself the name of reason, as it lures and whets the natural appetite that is in man of excelling, and gives loose rein to unlawful desires of every kind, has easily penetrated not only the minds of a great multitude of men but to a wide extent civil society, also. Hence, by a new species of impiety, unheard of even among the heathen nations, states have been constituted without any count at all of God or of the order established by him; it has been given out that public authority neither derives its principles, nor its majesty, nor its power of governing from God, but rather from the multitude, which, thinking itself absolved from all divine sanction, bows only to such laws as it shall have made at its own will. The supernatural truths of faith having been assailed and cast out as though hostile to reason, the very Author and Redeemer of the human race has been slowly and little by little banished from the universities, the lyceums and gymnasia-in a word, from every public institution. In fine, the rewards and punishments of a future and eternal life having been handed over to oblivion, the ardent desire of happiness has been limited to the bounds of the present. Such doctrines as these having been scattered far and wide, so great a license of thought and action having sprung up on all sides, it is no matter for surprise that men of the lowest class, weary of their wretched home or workshop, are eager to attack the homes and fortunes of the rich; it is no matter for surprise that already there exists no sense of security either in public or private life, and that the human race should have advanced to the very verge of final dissolution.
Let us take our helper and intercessor the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so that she, who from the moment of her conception (21) overcame Satan may show her power over these evil sects, in which is revived the contumacious spirit of the demon, together with his unsubdued perfidy and deceit. Let us beseech Michael, the prince of the heavenly angels, who drove out the infernal foe; and Joseph, the spouse of the most holy Virgin, and heavenly patron of the Catholic Church; and the great Apostles, Peter and Paul, the fathers and victorious champions of the Christian faith. By their patronage, and by perseverance in united prayer, we hope that God will mercifully and opportunely succor the human race, which is encompassed by so many dangers.
(21) Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Lk 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of grace!
It only by the power of the Holy Spirit thru the immaculate purity of Mary that the virgin-mother brings forth the Holy son of God!
Let us take our helper and intercessor the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so that she, who from the moment of her conception (21) overcame Satan may show her power over these evil sects, in which is revived the contumacious spirit of the demon, together with his unsubdued perfidy and deceit. Let us beseech Michael, the prince of the heavenly angels, who drove out the infernal foe; and Joseph, the spouse of the most holy Virgin, and heavenly patron of the Catholic Church; and the great Apostles, Peter and Paul, the fathers and victorious champions of the Christian faith. By their patronage, and by perseverance in united prayer, we hope that God will mercifully and opportunely succor the human race, which is encompassed by so many dangers.
(21) Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Lk 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of grace!
It only by the power of the Holy Spirit thru the immaculate purity of Mary that the virgin-mother brings forth the Holy son of God!
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (KJV)
What part of ALL don't you understand?
Is this absolute also?
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
What part of ALL don't you understand?
Is this absolute also?
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Bruce Atkinson
Active Member
I must say I’m of a different opinion on a number of details posted by multiple respondents in this thread. I’d like to clarify a few things so we’re all on the same page, or closer to it.
Among other things, it appears that many on this forum as well as in this thread don’t follow some of the basic rules of Bible study:
1. Determine WHO is writing or speaking
2. Determine TO WHOM is it written or spoken to
3. Determine the conditions, events, and historical timing of the passage
4. What is the intended goal of the passage
5. Context, context, context.
With that in mind, I’d like to start by discussing the ‘church’ as it is used in the Bible. Although Jews gathered in synagogues, Jesus likely used the term ‘church’ to apply to any faith. Most believe that the first reference to ‘church’ in the Bible is Jesus telling Peter that He will build my church… Note He said MY church, not the Roman Catholic church as some believe.
Whenever Christians see the word ‘church’, we immediately think it is referring to the Gentile churches and denominations we are familiar with. Unfortunately, that is NOT always true in the Bible. A quick check of the Greek word ‘ekklesia’(Strongs’ G3450) is translated to ‘church’ in every Bible version I know of. Ekklesia literally means ‘a called out assembly’. Most often it refers to a religious congregation of any faith. It has nothing to do with a physical building, location, or a denomination.
Let’s look at the timeline of events here. Jesus went to Jew only, He even ordered the 12 to NOT go to anyone but Jews – and Paul confirmed it:
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel., (KJV)
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (KJV)
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: (KJV)
Jesus made only 2.5 exceptions to that: the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15, the Roman centurion in Matthew 8, and the Samaritan woman in John 4. So it’s 100% guaranteed that there were ZERO Gentiles in the ‘church’ as referenced by Jesus.
Jesus referred to ‘church’ again in Matthew 18:17 in reference to a brother sinning against another brother. Again, referring to the ‘called out assembly’, which, at that point, was still Jews only.
Now we get down to the Book of Acts and its references to ‘church’. It should be noted that Acts covers a span of time of perhaps a dozen years give or take, not a handful of weeks or months as some may think. Keep in mind, too, that Pauls’ post road to Damascus journeys covered more than 30 years (38+- to 69-70 AD)!
Starting with Pentecost in Acts 2:
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (KJV)
How many Gentiles are referenced in the verse above? What about those from other countries in verses 6-11? I don’t know about you, but I strongly believe those from other countries were Jews ‘scattered abroad’ fearing for their lives as believers that Jesus is the Messiah that Saul and others like him are persecuting. Other than possibly a few curious Gentile onlookers, from Greece, for example, the entire crowd there is all Jewish.
In particular, Pentecost (aka, the Feast of Weeks) was a Jew ONLY feast as directed by Mosaic Law to occur 50 days after the Feast of the First Fruits (Gentiles generally call that, Easter):
Leviticus 23:15-17 (KJV)
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: (KJV)
I don’t know about you, but I always thought that Pentecost was a Christian only ‘holy day’ until Gods’ Word changed my life forever almost 23 years ago.
Does anyone ‘see’ any Gentiles in the rest of Acts 2?
Act 2:14,46-47 (KJV)
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
And the ‘church’ in Acts 5? Start reading at Acts 4:32 and finish at Acts 5:42. Peter, apostles, even the jailers, were all Jewish. No Gentiles there.
No Gentiles in Acts 7, either, where Stephen is ‘on trial’. Don’t get fooled by the word ‘priest’ in the first verse. Priests were all of the tribe of Levi, per Mosaic law.
And Saul, later known as Paul, still hated Jesus and all His followers:
Act_8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (KJV)
And the Eunuch in Acts 8? He only believed as Peter believed in Matthew 16:18 –
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (KJV)
No reference to Jesus dying for our sins, His blood, etc. Simply that Jesus IS the promised Messiah, eg, the Son of God.
Acts 11 and 12 only speak of Jews.
Meanwhile, Acts 13 shows Saul and Barnabas going to Synagogues, so it is at that point in Acts that indicates sometime AFTER Saul was met by Jesus on the road to Damascus. And John was with them per verse 5. Had Paul spent 3 ½ years with Jesus at that point? As Acts 15 contains no references to Jesus death for sin and His shed blood, I don’t think so.
In Acts 14, Paul and Barnabas are in more synagogues and preached the gospel (of the Kingdom, most likely, as he was talking to Jews...the Gospel of Grace? I suspect the former). But there were some Greeks there that believed as well. The Jews were exceedingly upset with the Gentiles, so it's clear the Jews did not hear of Pauls' saying there's no difference between Jew and Gentile, which was a later revelation from Jesus while Paul was in Arabia.
A significant number of years pass between Acts 14 and Acts 15, the Jerusalem council as it is Pauls' 2nd trip to Jerusalem, the first to see Peter and James only some years before.
So, it would seem that the Gentile church that we are familiar with didn’t start until sometime between the Acts 14 & 15. Given that Saul was out destroying believers in Acts 8. It would be reasonable to believe that 7-10 years elapsed between Acts 8 and Acts 15 as many theologians place Pauls’ time with Jesus in Arabia about 40 AD.
Among other things, it appears that many on this forum as well as in this thread don’t follow some of the basic rules of Bible study:
1. Determine WHO is writing or speaking
2. Determine TO WHOM is it written or spoken to
3. Determine the conditions, events, and historical timing of the passage
4. What is the intended goal of the passage
5. Context, context, context.
With that in mind, I’d like to start by discussing the ‘church’ as it is used in the Bible. Although Jews gathered in synagogues, Jesus likely used the term ‘church’ to apply to any faith. Most believe that the first reference to ‘church’ in the Bible is Jesus telling Peter that He will build my church… Note He said MY church, not the Roman Catholic church as some believe.
Whenever Christians see the word ‘church’, we immediately think it is referring to the Gentile churches and denominations we are familiar with. Unfortunately, that is NOT always true in the Bible. A quick check of the Greek word ‘ekklesia’(Strongs’ G3450) is translated to ‘church’ in every Bible version I know of. Ekklesia literally means ‘a called out assembly’. Most often it refers to a religious congregation of any faith. It has nothing to do with a physical building, location, or a denomination.
Let’s look at the timeline of events here. Jesus went to Jew only, He even ordered the 12 to NOT go to anyone but Jews – and Paul confirmed it:
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel., (KJV)
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (KJV)
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: (KJV)
Jesus made only 2.5 exceptions to that: the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15, the Roman centurion in Matthew 8, and the Samaritan woman in John 4. So it’s 100% guaranteed that there were ZERO Gentiles in the ‘church’ as referenced by Jesus.
Jesus referred to ‘church’ again in Matthew 18:17 in reference to a brother sinning against another brother. Again, referring to the ‘called out assembly’, which, at that point, was still Jews only.
Now we get down to the Book of Acts and its references to ‘church’. It should be noted that Acts covers a span of time of perhaps a dozen years give or take, not a handful of weeks or months as some may think. Keep in mind, too, that Pauls’ post road to Damascus journeys covered more than 30 years (38+- to 69-70 AD)!
Starting with Pentecost in Acts 2:
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (KJV)
How many Gentiles are referenced in the verse above? What about those from other countries in verses 6-11? I don’t know about you, but I strongly believe those from other countries were Jews ‘scattered abroad’ fearing for their lives as believers that Jesus is the Messiah that Saul and others like him are persecuting. Other than possibly a few curious Gentile onlookers, from Greece, for example, the entire crowd there is all Jewish.
In particular, Pentecost (aka, the Feast of Weeks) was a Jew ONLY feast as directed by Mosaic Law to occur 50 days after the Feast of the First Fruits (Gentiles generally call that, Easter):
Leviticus 23:15-17 (KJV)
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: (KJV)
I don’t know about you, but I always thought that Pentecost was a Christian only ‘holy day’ until Gods’ Word changed my life forever almost 23 years ago.
Does anyone ‘see’ any Gentiles in the rest of Acts 2?
Act 2:14,46-47 (KJV)
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
And the ‘church’ in Acts 5? Start reading at Acts 4:32 and finish at Acts 5:42. Peter, apostles, even the jailers, were all Jewish. No Gentiles there.
No Gentiles in Acts 7, either, where Stephen is ‘on trial’. Don’t get fooled by the word ‘priest’ in the first verse. Priests were all of the tribe of Levi, per Mosaic law.
And Saul, later known as Paul, still hated Jesus and all His followers:
Act_8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (KJV)
And the Eunuch in Acts 8? He only believed as Peter believed in Matthew 16:18 –
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (KJV)
No reference to Jesus dying for our sins, His blood, etc. Simply that Jesus IS the promised Messiah, eg, the Son of God.
Acts 11 and 12 only speak of Jews.
Meanwhile, Acts 13 shows Saul and Barnabas going to Synagogues, so it is at that point in Acts that indicates sometime AFTER Saul was met by Jesus on the road to Damascus. And John was with them per verse 5. Had Paul spent 3 ½ years with Jesus at that point? As Acts 15 contains no references to Jesus death for sin and His shed blood, I don’t think so.
In Acts 14, Paul and Barnabas are in more synagogues and preached the gospel (of the Kingdom, most likely, as he was talking to Jews...the Gospel of Grace? I suspect the former). But there were some Greeks there that believed as well. The Jews were exceedingly upset with the Gentiles, so it's clear the Jews did not hear of Pauls' saying there's no difference between Jew and Gentile, which was a later revelation from Jesus while Paul was in Arabia.
A significant number of years pass between Acts 14 and Acts 15, the Jerusalem council as it is Pauls' 2nd trip to Jerusalem, the first to see Peter and James only some years before.
So, it would seem that the Gentile church that we are familiar with didn’t start until sometime between the Acts 14 & 15. Given that Saul was out destroying believers in Acts 8. It would be reasonable to believe that 7-10 years elapsed between Acts 8 and Acts 15 as many theologians place Pauls’ time with Jesus in Arabia about 40 AD.
Bruce Atkinson
Active Member
It’s been postulated by forum members in this thread and others that Ephesians 3:5 indicates that the Gospel of Grace through faith alone was made known to the other apostles and prophets at the same time. The question I have is WHEN was that time?
Ephesians 3:5-6 (KJV)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Various theologians believe that Jesus met Paul on the road to Damascus somewhere between 36 AD and 38 AD. There is no scriptural ‘sure thing’ when it comes to exact dates in the New Testament. Many of the OT writers state ‘In the third year of xxx’ (some king) and that is a clearly identifiable year. There’s no specific number of years and Saul switched from persecuting Jews to going to their synagogues preaching that Jesus was, indeed, the promised Messiah, the Son of God. Nothing more and nothing less than what Peter believed in Matthew 16:16 and the Eunuch in Acts 8. The concensus of theologians I’m aware of is that Paul was called to Arabia and taught by Jesus about 40 AD. Those dates are speculation by everybody as there’s nothing definitive in the Bible.
So let’s use 40 AD that Ephesians 3:5 takes place and the mystery (hidden secrets of God going to the Gentiles and salvation by grace through faith alone) was made known to Paul and the other apostles at the same time.
So now it comes down to WHEN did the 4 Gospel writers first put pen & ink on scrolls. I’ve not heard or read much about when the Gospels were written. But I do recall one Bible teacher thinking it was the late 40s to about 50 AD.
Assuming that to be true, then WHY did the 4 Gospel writers NOT include anything about salvation by Grace through faith in their Gospels? Nothing about Jesus’ death for OUR sins. Nothing about His shed blood as the full and complete, perfect atonement for our sins, either. Nothing about it, either, in the epistles of James, Peter and John. And those followed writing of the Gospels by a couple years, I would guess.
I’ve got a couple of hypotheses why that happened:
1) Being told by the Spirit vs being told verbally or by direct revelation from Jesus (as Paul experienced) are quite different.
Galatians_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (KJV)
Like us today, God through the indwelling Holy Spirit reveals His truths slowly, one piece at a time. At least in my life, learning lessons from the Spirit are rarely obvious and are slowly identifed. It’s that quiet voice that’s easy to miss if not looking for it. So maybe they never ‘heard’ it during their activities.
2) Maybe they ‘refused to believe it’. They were dyed-in-the-wool Jews and followed the Mosaic law at all times (except Peter going to Cornelius’ house and eating un-kosher food). Even the thought of going willingly anywhere near a Gentile was strongly distasteful to ALL Jews of the day. After all, Israel was Gods’ chosen people, and they knew it! So they were automatically ‘better’ than Gentiles.
3) As Jews, they followed the law unconditionally which included various ‘works’ including tithing, leaving portions of fields behind for the poor (fish, too?), etc. To them following the law was an unconditional requirement for entry into the promised Kingdom of Heaven. There was NO WAY they'd go against what they've been taught their whole life!
4) Maybe as Peter at the end of his life wrote:
2 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(Some Bible translations use the word ‘twist’ instead of ‘wrest’)
In other words, it was hard to comprehend. For the most part, the 12 were fishermen and minimally educated whereas Paul was highly educated, so he could understand the apparent contradictions to what he, as a Jew, believed all his life. Perhaps it was a giant ‘leap’ akin to trying to teach a grade schooler 3rd semester college calculus (I had to repeat it as I was an engineering student at the time, that’s why I use the comparison).
5) Perhaps Pauls’ first trip to Jerusalem to meet with Peter and James did little more than confuse Peter and James. Did Peter relay his confusion to the other Apostles?
Galatians 1:17-19 (KJV)
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Of note, too, is verse 17 and 18…Paul spent 3 years in Arabia (starting in 40 AD?), then 3 in Damascus, would would put his trip there about 46 AD.
6) Supply your own explanation why salvation by grace through faith alone is NOT in any of the Gospels or epistles written by the disciples.
Other ideas on when the Gospels were written and why they didn't include salvation by grace through faith welcome.
I almost forgot...it was postulated in another thread that Paul was actually with the 4 Gospel writers when they wrote the Gospels. If that were true, then it would be MORE likely they would have included Pauls' teachings. Why not?
Ephesians 3:5-6 (KJV)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Various theologians believe that Jesus met Paul on the road to Damascus somewhere between 36 AD and 38 AD. There is no scriptural ‘sure thing’ when it comes to exact dates in the New Testament. Many of the OT writers state ‘In the third year of xxx’ (some king) and that is a clearly identifiable year. There’s no specific number of years and Saul switched from persecuting Jews to going to their synagogues preaching that Jesus was, indeed, the promised Messiah, the Son of God. Nothing more and nothing less than what Peter believed in Matthew 16:16 and the Eunuch in Acts 8. The concensus of theologians I’m aware of is that Paul was called to Arabia and taught by Jesus about 40 AD. Those dates are speculation by everybody as there’s nothing definitive in the Bible.
So let’s use 40 AD that Ephesians 3:5 takes place and the mystery (hidden secrets of God going to the Gentiles and salvation by grace through faith alone) was made known to Paul and the other apostles at the same time.
So now it comes down to WHEN did the 4 Gospel writers first put pen & ink on scrolls. I’ve not heard or read much about when the Gospels were written. But I do recall one Bible teacher thinking it was the late 40s to about 50 AD.
Assuming that to be true, then WHY did the 4 Gospel writers NOT include anything about salvation by Grace through faith in their Gospels? Nothing about Jesus’ death for OUR sins. Nothing about His shed blood as the full and complete, perfect atonement for our sins, either. Nothing about it, either, in the epistles of James, Peter and John. And those followed writing of the Gospels by a couple years, I would guess.
I’ve got a couple of hypotheses why that happened:
1) Being told by the Spirit vs being told verbally or by direct revelation from Jesus (as Paul experienced) are quite different.
Galatians_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (KJV)
Like us today, God through the indwelling Holy Spirit reveals His truths slowly, one piece at a time. At least in my life, learning lessons from the Spirit are rarely obvious and are slowly identifed. It’s that quiet voice that’s easy to miss if not looking for it. So maybe they never ‘heard’ it during their activities.
2) Maybe they ‘refused to believe it’. They were dyed-in-the-wool Jews and followed the Mosaic law at all times (except Peter going to Cornelius’ house and eating un-kosher food). Even the thought of going willingly anywhere near a Gentile was strongly distasteful to ALL Jews of the day. After all, Israel was Gods’ chosen people, and they knew it! So they were automatically ‘better’ than Gentiles.
3) As Jews, they followed the law unconditionally which included various ‘works’ including tithing, leaving portions of fields behind for the poor (fish, too?), etc. To them following the law was an unconditional requirement for entry into the promised Kingdom of Heaven. There was NO WAY they'd go against what they've been taught their whole life!
4) Maybe as Peter at the end of his life wrote:
2 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(Some Bible translations use the word ‘twist’ instead of ‘wrest’)
In other words, it was hard to comprehend. For the most part, the 12 were fishermen and minimally educated whereas Paul was highly educated, so he could understand the apparent contradictions to what he, as a Jew, believed all his life. Perhaps it was a giant ‘leap’ akin to trying to teach a grade schooler 3rd semester college calculus (I had to repeat it as I was an engineering student at the time, that’s why I use the comparison).
5) Perhaps Pauls’ first trip to Jerusalem to meet with Peter and James did little more than confuse Peter and James. Did Peter relay his confusion to the other Apostles?
Galatians 1:17-19 (KJV)
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Of note, too, is verse 17 and 18…Paul spent 3 years in Arabia (starting in 40 AD?), then 3 in Damascus, would would put his trip there about 46 AD.
6) Supply your own explanation why salvation by grace through faith alone is NOT in any of the Gospels or epistles written by the disciples.
Other ideas on when the Gospels were written and why they didn't include salvation by grace through faith welcome.
I almost forgot...it was postulated in another thread that Paul was actually with the 4 Gospel writers when they wrote the Gospels. If that were true, then it would be MORE likely they would have included Pauls' teachings. Why not?
Context really? All scripture is inspired but says nothing about context
even one word is still the inspired word of God
so tell me how does the context of Jn 14:6 make Jesus not the way the truth and the life???
Or the context of Jn 11:25 make Jesus not the resurrection and the life???
the church is the new covenant by faith and baptism Mk 16:16 Acts 8:36/38
Btw how does the eunuch know about baptism if the apostles taught “faith alone”???
even one word is still the inspired word of God
so tell me how does the context of Jn 14:6 make Jesus not the way the truth and the life???
Or the context of Jn 11:25 make Jesus not the resurrection and the life???
the church is the new covenant by faith and baptism Mk 16:16 Acts 8:36/38
Btw how does the eunuch know about baptism if the apostles taught “faith alone”???
Why would it be difficult to understand that the Eunuch had heard of the Gospel preached by the Apostles and some understanding on baptism? Someone telling him is not a sign of faith. We do not know what he had heard prior.
Faith alone
Christ alone
Grace alone
how many alones can you have and still have it be alone?
Protestantism is mental illness
Christ alone
Grace alone
how many alones can you have and still have it be alone?
Protestantism is mental illness
FACAGA?
Five Solas or Protestant dogmas!
Faith alone
Christ alone
Grace alone
Bible alone
Glory to God alone
Protestantism is unbiblical!
Faith alone! That means faith alone! Period!
No sacramentse ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
No repentance Lk 3:3
No suffering Mk 8:34 Mk 10:21 Phil 1:29
No hope rom 8:24
No charity 1 cor 13:2 1 cor 13:13
No love of God duet. 6:5
No grace Jn 1:16-17
No patience Heb 10:36
No nothing but faith alone!
Alone means alone!
Rom 8: 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13
And never “faith alone”!
Rev. 2 I know thy works! I thought faith alone is all that mattered?
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
How can salvation be by faith alone in Christ alone thru grace alone?
Faith alone?
1 cor 13:2 and 13:13, Phil 1:29, James 2:24 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 oppose faith alone!
Christ alone?
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!
Grace alone?
Mk 16:16 faith and baptism!
Jn 3:5 water and the spirit! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 the promise of the father, sacred oath is a sacrament!
Not grace alone but, grace thru baptism of water and the spirit, and a new heart full of love of God!
Matt 5:7 merciful receive mercy
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven
Acts 22:15 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Jn 3:5 and Titus 3:5 born again refers to baptismal regeneration
Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”
John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)
John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)
John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)
John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
Born again means Baptismal regeneration!
Paul never taught justification by “faith alone”!
Did not Paul write these scriptures?
1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13:13
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Other scriptures opposing “faith alone”
Matt 5:7 mercy thru merciful
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven
Five Solas or Protestant dogmas!
Faith alone
Christ alone
Grace alone
Bible alone
Glory to God alone
Protestantism is unbiblical!
Faith alone! That means faith alone! Period!
No sacramentse ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
No repentance Lk 3:3
No suffering Mk 8:34 Mk 10:21 Phil 1:29
No hope rom 8:24
No charity 1 cor 13:2 1 cor 13:13
No love of God duet. 6:5
No grace Jn 1:16-17
No patience Heb 10:36
No nothing but faith alone!
Alone means alone!
Rom 8: 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13
And never “faith alone”!
Rev. 2 I know thy works! I thought faith alone is all that mattered?
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
How can salvation be by faith alone in Christ alone thru grace alone?
Faith alone?
1 cor 13:2 and 13:13, Phil 1:29, James 2:24 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 oppose faith alone!
Christ alone?
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!
Grace alone?
Mk 16:16 faith and baptism!
Jn 3:5 water and the spirit! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 the promise of the father, sacred oath is a sacrament!
Not grace alone but, grace thru baptism of water and the spirit, and a new heart full of love of God!
Matt 5:7 merciful receive mercy
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven
Acts 22:15 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Jn 3:5 and Titus 3:5 born again refers to baptismal regeneration
Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”
John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)
John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)
John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)
John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
Born again means Baptismal regeneration!
Paul never taught justification by “faith alone”!
Did not Paul write these scriptures?
1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13:13
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Other scriptures opposing “faith alone”
Matt 5:7 mercy thru merciful
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven
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