Making others work for you on the Sabbath Day

[marksman]

You seem to think that Christians meet on Sunday as a matter of convenience. That is not the case. Christians have been gathering together for fellowship on Sundays since the very beginning, a custom established by the Apostles, not because it was or is convenient, but to commemorate the day when our Lord rose from the dead.

There is no mention of the NT Church meeting on Sundays, particularly the Jerusalem Church as they were all Jews, who worked on Sunday. Their day of rest was the Sabbath (Sunset Friday to Sunset Saturday).

By all means, go out an minister to youth at whatever time they are available, but encourage them to change their lifestyle for the sake of their faith, not change the faith for the sake of their lifestyle.

The change in lifestyle comes when they have surrendered their life to Christ, not before.

P.S. Most churches meet on Sunday mornings AND Sunday evenings as well as an evening during the week.

Not in my country. Out of about 16 churches in the vicinity of my home, only three meet Sunday evening.

The issue is the hypocrisy of people who claim that a certain day is the Sabbath and who then have others work for them on that same day.

As I have already pointed out in so many words that when you compromise on one truth, you invariably compromise on other truths. Called the slippery slope.

The Sabbath is and has always been sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. One of the 10 Commandments is to remember the (Jewish) Sabbath and to keep it holy.

We have compromised ourselves by ignoring God's word and changed the sabbath to Sunday because it is convenient for us. As a result we now compromise the instructions God gave for the Sabbath and I am sure there are a hundred reasons to justify our actions so we should not be surprised that the church general has made up its own commandments regarding the Sabbath.

The fact is, everyone of the 10 Commandments are still valid but we have told God that we will take nine of them and ignore the fourth one. There have been all sorts of reasons given as to why we can ignore the Sabbath Commandment, but I see nowhere in scripture that says we can pick and choose what we will accept or won't accept.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The fact is, everyone of the 10 Commandments are still valid but we have told God that we will take nine of them and ignore the fourth one. There have been all sorts of reasons given as to why we can ignore the Sabbath Commandment, but I see nowhere in scripture that says we can pick and choose what we will accept or won't accept.

The righteousness demanded by every one of the 10 commandments is fulfilled in one law: love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus' commandments are:

• Believe in Christ

[The people] said to [Jesus], 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe into him whom he has sent.' John 6:28-29

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord [by faith], so walk in him [by faith]. Colossians 2:6

• Love your neighbor as yourself

A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another. As I have loved you, also you love one another. John 13:34

This is [GOD's] commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. 1 John 3:23-24

For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are summed up in this statement: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does not commit evil against a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9-10

Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Matthew 7:12


That's how simple it really is.

What are the great commandments of Moses' law?

• Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40

What does it mean to love GOD with all the heart, soul, and mind?

• For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3
• If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15
• He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

And what are GOD's commandments?

This is [GOD's] commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

 

[marksman]

The righteousness demanded by every one of the 10 commandments is fulfilled in one law: love your neighbor as yourself.

Can you tell me how keeping the Sabbath is loving your neighbour?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Can you tell me how keeping the Sabbath is loving your neighbour?

Keeping the sabbath holy means loving GOD, not loving your neighbor. Jesus said that loving GOD means keeping his commandments. His commandment is to love your neighbor. So doing that is loving GOD, and obeying the spirit of the 4th commandment.

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, I don't understand why so many Gentiles are fussing about a fraction of the 200+ commandments that the ancient people of Israel were given as conditions of the Old Covenant.

 

[Robertson]

Folks, the issue is not why Christians gather together or when they do it.

The issue is the hypocrisy of people who claim that a certain day is the Sabbath and who then have others work for them on that same day.

Very good David!

Some don't want to keep it simple. This is why I say it isn't a debate about which day or when we should meet at church, etc. Good thread though, thanks people!

 

[Pilgrimer]

There is no mention of the NT Church meeting on Sundays, particularly the Jerusalem Church as they were all Jews, who worked on Sunday. Their day of rest was the Sabbath (Sunset Friday to Sunset Saturday).

Actually, the New Testament Church did in fact meet on Sundays as evidenced by Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17 and Revelation 1:10 which refers to Sunday as “the Lord’s Day.” The purposes for which they met were 1) for fellowship and communion in breaking bread, 2) for communicating and receiving instruction, 3) for laying up offerings in store for charitable purposes and 4) for occupation in holy thought and prayer. What the weekly festival commemorating the Lord’s resurrection was not intended to be was a New Covenant Sabbath as Paul clearly teaches in Hebrews 4 that the New Covenant Sabbath is “today, if you will hear his voice,” also referred to in Scripture as “the Day of Salvation” when, as Paul goes on to teach, men through faith can cease from their own works and rest in Jesus, which is what the Old Covenant Sabbath day was a type and shadow of … the New Covenant Day of Salvation: “Come unto me ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest unto your souls.”

If you think the single greatest blessing of loving God is getting a day off work once a week, then I’m afraid you have missed the point of the Gospel entirely.

As I have already pointed out in so many words that when you compromise on one truth, you invariably compromise on other truths. Called the slippery slope.

The Sabbath is and has always been sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. One of the 10 Commandments is to remember the (Jewish) Sabbath and to keep it holy.

We have compromised ourselves by ignoring God's word and changed the sabbath to Sunday because it is convenient for us. As a result we now compromise the instructions God gave for the Sabbath and I am sure there are a hundred reasons to justify our actions so we should not be surprised that the church general has made up its own commandments regarding the Sabbath.

The fact is, everyone of the 10 Commandments are still valid but we have told God that we will take nine of them and ignore the fourth one. There have been all sorts of reasons given as to why we can ignore the Sabbath Commandment, but I see nowhere in scripture that says we can pick and choose what we will accept or won't accept.

As for the rest of your post, if you think those under the New Covenant are subject to the 10 Commandments of the Law, then I am afraid you are greatly mistaken. The righteousness that comes through faith holds us to a far, far higher standard than what the Law of Moses commanded. In other words, under the New Covenant it’s not enough that you obey the 10 Commandments, or even than you obey all 216 commandments and injunctions of the Law. The New Covenant has set the bar for righteousness much, much higher with the commandment to be born again and receive a new nature so that our obedience is from the heart, something which the Law, with all its manifold commandments and observances, could never do, nor was ever intended to do. The Law was a type and a shadow of better things to come. And the Good News is, those better things have come, and they are all found in Christ.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[marksman]

Keeping the sabbath holy means loving GOD, not loving your neighbor. Jesus said that loving GOD means keeping his commandments. His commandment is to love your neighbor. So doing that is loving GOD, and obeying the spirit of the 4th commandment.

In that case I will keep the spirit of the other nine commandments...like only commit adultery occasionally....like only bash people up, not murder them.....like love the Lord our God in word but not in deed and so on.

I am not convinced that God intended for us to keep the spirit of the 10 commandments. It sounds to me that he intended us to KEEP the 10 commandments as the word "spirit" appears nowhere in relation to the 10 commandments.

Actually, the New Testament Church did in fact meet on Sundays as evidenced by Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2,Colossians 2:16-17 and Revelation 1:10 which refers to Sunday as “the Lord’s Day.”

I am sorry but you are totally misinformed.

Act 20:7 And on the first of the sabbaths, the disciples having been assembled to break bread, being about to depart on the morrow, Paul reasoned to them. And he continued his speech until midnight.


1Co 16:2 On one of the sabbaths, let each of you put by himself, storing up whatever he is prospered, that there not be collections then when I come.


Col 2:16 Then do not let anyone judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in part of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,


Rev 1:10 I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

There is no mention of Sundays in the literal translation. It is always "sabbath" which the church ALWAYS understood to be sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday.

In Colossians, you can't be judged for something that does not happen. if they met on Sunday, why was the issue the "sabbath."

Revelation talks about the Lord's day or the day of the Lord, which in the New Testament was always the Jewish Sabbath. There is no indication in the original Greek that it was Sunday.

If you think the single greatest blessing of loving God is getting a day off work once a week, then I’m afraid you have missed the point of the Gospel entirely.

I would appreciate very much if you could show me where I said that.

As for the rest of your post, if you think those under the New Covenant are subject to the 10 Commandments of the Law, then I am afraid you are greatly mistaken

Thankyou for your opinion which I choose to ignore for the following reasons.....

You don't believe that we are required to keep the 10 commandments but the fact is you do every day. If you didn't, you would murder, covet your neighbor's goods, be adulterous, tell lies, worship idols, not love God and so on and so on.

People tend to dismiss the 10 commandments because they like the freedom not to obey or pick and choose the ones they will obey or not as the case may be.

They haven't worked out that under the Old Covenant the 10 Commandments were a yardstick and used as a threat as in "You shall not do this or you will be punished."

Under the New Covenant they are a promise as in "because you are washed in the blood, you won't do this....."

I find that totally liberating.

The issue is the hypocrisy of people who claim that a certain day is the Sabbath and who then have others work for them on that same day.

And one could say that it is hypocrisy to worry about others working for you on Sunday when you don't obey the Lord and meet on the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown on Saturday).

 

[Dodo_David]

I am sorry but you are totally misinformed.

Act 20:7 And on the first of the sabbaths, the disciples having been assembled to break bread, being about to depart on the morrow, Paul reasoned to them. And he continued his speech until midnight.


1Co 16:2 On one of the sabbaths, let each of you put by himself, storing up whatever he is prospered, that there not be collections then when I come.

Uh, Marksman, you might want to re-checked whatever version of Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 that you are using, because in the Greek, those verses say Motza’ei-Shabbat.

Motza’ei-Shabbat is the time on Saturday evening after the Sabbath ended, after sunset. In Jewish though, Motza’ei-Shabbat is the beginning of Sunday, since in Jewish though, a day is from sunset to sunset. Indeed, in Jewish thought, Motza’ei-Shabbat is the beginning of the first day of the week.

 

[marksman]

Uh, Marksman, you might want to re-checked whatever version of Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 that you are using, because in the Greek, those verses say Motza’ei-Shabbat.

I have already checked them over and over again, having read various books on the subject over the years and have been taught by my senior lecturer at bible college who was a converted Jew that the sabbath is sundown Friday to sundown Saturday and my own study of the Greek in scripture and formed my view not from one verse as so many do but the overall revelation of scripture as the bible is the best commentary on the bible. This included studying the history of the Jews and the history of the New Testament church and social norms of that time.

With all that weight of evidence, I tend to go with it than the meaning of ONE VERSE.

 

[Dodo_David]

I have already checked them over and over again, having read various books on the subject over the years and have been taught by my senior lecturer at bible college who was a converted Jew that the sabbath is sundown Friday to sundown Saturday and my own study of the Greek in scripture and formed my view not from one verse as so many do but the overall revelation of scripture as the bible is the best commentary on the bible. This included studying the history of the Jews and the history of the New Testament church and social norms of that time.

With all that weight of evidence, I tend to go with it than the meaning of ONE VERSE.

You are still ignoring the fact that, in the Greek texts, Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 say Motza’ei-Shabbat, which occurs after the Sabbath has ended. Hence, Motza’ei-Shabbat.is the beginning of the next day in Jewish thought.

I agree that the English translations do not give Gentiles a clear picture of when Motza’ei-Shabbat occurs. Still, Motza’ei-Shabbat is after the Sabbath has ended.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

You are still ignoring the fact that, in the Greek texts, Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 say Motza’ei-Shabbat, which occurs after the Sabbath has ended. Hence, Motza’ei-Shabbat.is the beginning of the next day in Jewish thought.

I agree that the English translations do not give Gentiles a clear picture of when Motza’ei-Shabbat occurs. Still, Motza’ei-Shabbat is after the Sabbath has ended.

The problem with a simplistic approach to the Bible is that it can get in the way of the truth. I'm talking particularly of equating all scriptures the same. In some sense it is because all scripture is true and inspired by God in the various writers and authors. But the way it applies to Christians is where the inequality comes in because between the Old and New Testaments, the Old Covenant was superseded by a superior New Covenant and the Christian Church was given authority unlike any given to the people of God at any time. It was by that authority that Christians rejected the Jewish canon and chose a Christian canon. It was by that authority that Christians removed circumcision as a requirement, though it was a requirement in the Old Covenant. And it was also by that authority that Christians began to observe The Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath.

This is where the error of sola scriptura is highlighted, particularly the claim that the Church is bound by the writings of scripture rather than the direct authority invested it by Jesus Christ himself (as amply recorded in scripture). The hypocricy is revealed in the fact that the same Old Testament that required circumcision no longer applies to us today even though it's in the Bible, yet somehow the Sabbath does? When we saw Paul do away with the requirement of circumcision we are seeing precisely what I'm talking about; the Christian Church stepping boldly forward in the authority it's been given by Christ. It should be so clear and yet some Christians want to be bound by the letter of the law after being set free by Christ!

So how is it that the New Testament apostles can do away with circumcision which abridges sola scriptura and yet can't do away with Sabbath worship? The answer is, they had the authority to change both and both were changed even before the biblical canon was assembled. And even in the New Testament era, Christians were celebrating eucharista and they were doing so on Sunday, not Saturday. It's one of the very first challenges that the early church had to grapple with is how applicable is the Old Testament law and the traditions of the Jews in a church that embraced both Jew and Gentile. It was decided early on that the Jews were no longer the oracles of God, but the Church was; the one and only divine vessel of revelation.

This is where the Seventh Day Adventists err.

 

[laid renard]

The commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy is well known. I'll just quote it here for easy access:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates


Now please, this is not a thread to debate what day the Sabbath day is or what time it starts or ends. All that can be debate somewhere else. My topic of discussion on this thread is to try and understand why a lot of us Christians attend church and then almost as if it is tradition, go out to the breakfast café or to the lunch diner to make others work for us by cooking our food, waiting on our tables, and cleaning up after us.

The commandment clearly states that we are to not work nor have anyone working for us. Nevermind that the people who are working on the Sabbath day in our society are already breaking the commandment, but aren't we ourselves breaking the commandment by allowing them to work for us? What do y'all think?

Never looked at it that way before. Thanx for pointing it out. Not very integrity generated is it ?

Reminds me of the time my two clueless sisters-in-law came to my home to invite me to a church where one of them was speaking. She was wearing a skirt she had stolen from me. And the other is a habitual gossip and busy-body. I declined.

If you're gonna commit to something, commit totally. Otherwise, it weakens your witness.

 

[marksman]

You are still ignoring the fact that, in the Greek texts, Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 say Motza’ei-Shabbat, which occurs after the Sabbath has ended. Hence, Motza’ei-Shabbat.is the beginning of the next day in Jewish thought.

I agree that the English translations do not give Gentiles a clear picture of when Motza’ei-Shabbat occurs. Still, Motza’ei-Shabbat is after the Sabbath has ended.

But I am not ignoring the whole revelation of scripture, christian jews, the history books and many years study. If you think I am going to ditch all that because of your interpretation of ONE verse dream on.

And it was also by that authority that Christians began to observe The Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath.

The New Testament Church did not meet on Sunday. I have read over 40 books on the subject, some by Catholic authors and they all said the same thing. The church met on the Jewish Sabbath.

The hypocricy is revealed in the fact that the same Old Testament that required circumcision no longer applies to us today even though it's in the Bible, yet somehow the Sabbath does?

Simple. The Sabbath was one of the ten commandments. Circumcision wasn't so the two are not comparable.

It should be so clear and yet some Christians want to be bound by the letter of the law after being set free by Christ!

And it should be so clear that you believe that the truth resides in you. Let me make this quite clear....

I AM NOT BOUND BY THE LETTER OF THE LAW. The 10 commandments liberate me as I read them and follow them because they translate to promises of God under the New Covenant.

If you think not murdering is bondage, be my guest.

This is where the Seventh Day Adventists err.

Of course we won't talk about where the Catholic Church blatantly errs.

 

[Dodo_David]

But I am not ignoring the whole revelation of scripture, christian jews, the history books and many years study. If you think I am going to ditch all that because of your interpretation of ONE verse dream on.

I find it amazing that someone can refer to "many years of study" and still not notice that, in the Greek texts, Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 say Motza’ei-Shabbat. Not one, but two verse say it.

From Wikipedia:

The term Motzei Shabbat (literally, the going out of the Sabbath) in Judaism refers to the time in the evening immediately following Shabbat, that is Saturday night. It is a time when, following one's declaration of the intention to end Shabbat, it is permissible to resume weekday activities that are prohibited on Shabbat.

From Wiki.Answers:

The time period after Sabbath ends is usually referred to as "motza'ei shabbos".

From Tablet Magazine (a Jewish website):

But Hebrew has no word for “Saturday,” other than Shabbat. The universality of the word is reflected in a Hebrew axiom that has its roots in the military: “Every Shabbat has a motzei Shabbat,” or post-Shabbat. This means that all good things must come to an end, with the added implication that after the day of rest, you must get back to your real life. . . Even when it is being used literally, “motzei Shabbat” can mean a lot of things. While religious Jews—Israeli or otherwise—understand the term to mean the part of Saturday evening that begins only after Shabbat ends, non-religious Israelis use the term (or its Hebrew acronym, motzash) to mean Saturday evening in a general sense . . .

From Torah.org:

Motzei Shabbos - Saturday night after Shabbos concludes.

From the National Library of Israel:

Motzei Shabbat, the hours after the end of the Sabbath, is a time when the demarcation between 'holy' and 'everyday' is blurred...

So, in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2, the believers in Messiah Jesus met together on Saturday evening after the Sabbath ended.

As I said earlier, English translations of Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 do not give modern-day Western Gentiles a clear understanding of exactly when the believers met. While it is true that they met after the Sabbath ended, it is also true that they met on Saturday evening, not Sunday morning.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I find it amazing that someone can refer to "many years of study" and still not notice that, in the Greek texts, Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 say Motza’ei-Shabbat. Not one, but two verse say it.

I don't see Motza’ei-Shabbat in those two verses. I see mia ton sabbaton. The former is Hebrew; the latter is Greek.

 

[Dodo_David]

If people believe that they must participate in corporate worship during the Sabbath, then let them be. Their decision is between them and God.

Likewise for people who believe that they should participate in corporate worship on Sunday instead.

This particular issue does not pertain to anything that is essential for salvation.

No matter when Gentiles decide to meet for corporate worship, they should still acknowledge that the biblical Sabbath was never changed. The biblical Sabbath is still the period of time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday.

Regarding the original topic of this thread, Vale as a point. Some people fuss about a part of Mosaic Law that is not in the Decalogue (tithing) while ignoring what the Decalogue says about the Sabbath. Go figure.

The controversy addressed by this thread is the habit of some Christians. Namely, some Christians claim that they must not work on the day that they say is the Sabbath, but they still make people work on their behalf on that same day, contradicting the Sabbath commandment as stated in the Decalogue.

* * *

FWIW, a point of information:

In Mark 16:1-2, we read the following:

When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb ...

In the Greek, the expression translated into English as "first day of the week" is "μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων", which is transliterated as "mia ton sabbaton".

Verse 1 says that the women bought spices for Jesus' body after the Sabbath was over.
Verse 2 says that the women went to the tomb during mia ton sabbaton just after sunrise.

So, the passage itself defines mia ton sabbaton as taking place after the Sabbath.

Considering what Mark 16:1-2 say in the Greek, we can logically conclude that mia ton sabbaton in Acts 20:7 can be translated the same way that it is translated in in Mark 16:2.

 

[Robertson]

I would like to see the calendar that Adam and Eve had! Anyone have that information handy? If you're claiming sundown to sundown Fri to Sat, that was done after the alternation of the calendar of the Hebrews when they were brought out of Egypt. Their whole reconing of time started over and that day was the first day of their new year. Suffice it to say, if we wanted to know what day God rested from is creation period, He would have to tell us, since it isnt in the scriptures.

 

[marksman]

Suffice it to say, if we wanted to know what day God rested from is creation period, He would have to tell us, since it isnt in the scriptures.

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God completed His work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.

The English word seventh is a correct interpretation of the Hebrew word so no interpretation is necessary. God rested on the seventh day. If that ain't God telling us, I don't know what is.

 

[Robertson]

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God completed His work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.

The English word seventh is a correct interpretation of the Hebrew word so no interpretation is necessary. God rested on the seventh day. If that ain't God telling us, I don't know what is.

You misunderstood my post. We all know it says seventh day. My point was what day was that? Was it Saturday, Monday, Thursday?

What day was the first day? When did He start creating the earth? Was that on a Monday or a Wednesday?

This is why I said no one will know that answer unless God tells us.

Since we have no calendar of that time, and since Hebrew time changed throughout the years, we have no way to know, so it is pointless to bicker over the whole 7th day, 1st day thing. It simply doesnt say which day was what.