In my discussions, it appears to me that many of you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at the advent of Christ. This is something I do not understand. Can someone please explain why you take this position?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
Many prefer to be martyred.......
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(guysmith;50239)
In my discussions, it appears to me that many of you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at the advent of Christ. This is something I do not understand. Can someone please explain why you take this position?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
Mr Smith, I do not take that position. However, I believe if the need arose, the Holy Spirit would rise up strong in all believers. However, there is a myth going around, that the church will have to face the antichrist. It is only a myth, based on a missunderstanding of the word.Coop
In my discussions, it appears to me that many of you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at the advent of Christ. This is something I do not understand. Can someone please explain why you take this position?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
Mr Smith, I do not take that position. However, I believe if the need arose, the Holy Spirit would rise up strong in all believers. However, there is a myth going around, that the church will have to face the antichrist. It is only a myth, based on a missunderstanding of the word.Coop
Hello Coop,Sorry, I don't see the pre-trib rapture. If there is one, then I would be right there with you. But if there isn't one, well...what are your plans?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
(guysmith;50337)
Hello Coop,Sorry, I don't see the pre-trib rapture. If there is one, then I would be right there with you. But if there isn't one, well...what are your plans?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
Jesus said, "upon this rock, I will build my church." He was referring to Peter just having indentified Him as "The Christ, the son of the Living God." He told Peter that God had revealed this to him. He was speaking then, of "revealed" knowledge.Paul undoubted received more revelation knowledge than any of the authors of the new testament. He alone received the revelation of the rapture of the church. Revelations did not cease with the first apostles - but continue today. Do you ever read of people that have been to heaven, say in the last 20 years? Choo Thomas, for example, was taken to heaven by Jesus 17 different times, and told that she must write accurately about what Jesus told her and showed her. There was pastor Buck, the brother of the one that makes Buck knives. He went to heaven. Jessie Duplantis, Dr. Eby, seven youths from Columbia, an eight year old girl from Puerto Rico, Unity from India, Mary Baxter, Anna Roundtree, Seneca Sodi, Ricardo Cid, Bishop "Earthquake" Kelly, Howard Pittman, Victoria, a 4 1/2 year old! - the list goes on and on. Some of these were priviledged to see a vision of the rapture. Many were told about how soon Jesus will come for his church. NONE were told that He would come for the church after the tribulation. In most of the recent visits to heaven, Jesus says, "I am coming sooner than you think!" Choo Thomas saw the rapture, and saw the world after the rapture, with the beast coming into power. Jesus told her time and time again, "I am coming sooner than you think."Some believe that the marriage will take place down here on earth. They read Revelation 19, with preconceived glasses on. Many of those that have visited heaven recently have seen the tables and the preparations for the marriage supper. The last few that have seen this, have seen that it is all complete (as are the mansions) and all preparations are done - just waiting on the rapture! Jesus has told the some recently that the ONLY thing He is waiting on, is that some of the body of Christ is playing in the world, and would be left behind. Our Heavenly Father is giving them a little more time to come out of the world. Jesus is coming for those that are looking for Him. Some true believers are not looking. God is giving them a little more time. It is His great grace!For the readers: I know personal testimony cannot be compared to scripture - yet Paul received everything He received by revealation. If a personal revelation fits with scripture, we should listen. This is the very reason God is taking so many to see heaven and hell recently: so they can share with the church.So I am not in question as to me being here during the 70th week. I know I will not be. I too had a mini-vision of myself being raptured.Many who study revelation, have never had anything revealed to them, about the book. They are just using human knowledge. I learned a long time ago, that if I want wisdom (about scripture) God will give liberally! James tells us this. However, many do not know how to get this wisdom. I discovered that if I ask God about a scripture, and keep on asking until He answers, He will always answer. So in Revelation, I have just waited on God concerning many scriptures - until He answered. Before that time, I was as confused as most of the church is, about this great book.Coop
Hello Coop,Sorry, I don't see the pre-trib rapture. If there is one, then I would be right there with you. But if there isn't one, well...what are your plans?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
Jesus said, "upon this rock, I will build my church." He was referring to Peter just having indentified Him as "The Christ, the son of the Living God." He told Peter that God had revealed this to him. He was speaking then, of "revealed" knowledge.Paul undoubted received more revelation knowledge than any of the authors of the new testament. He alone received the revelation of the rapture of the church. Revelations did not cease with the first apostles - but continue today. Do you ever read of people that have been to heaven, say in the last 20 years? Choo Thomas, for example, was taken to heaven by Jesus 17 different times, and told that she must write accurately about what Jesus told her and showed her. There was pastor Buck, the brother of the one that makes Buck knives. He went to heaven. Jessie Duplantis, Dr. Eby, seven youths from Columbia, an eight year old girl from Puerto Rico, Unity from India, Mary Baxter, Anna Roundtree, Seneca Sodi, Ricardo Cid, Bishop "Earthquake" Kelly, Howard Pittman, Victoria, a 4 1/2 year old! - the list goes on and on. Some of these were priviledged to see a vision of the rapture. Many were told about how soon Jesus will come for his church. NONE were told that He would come for the church after the tribulation. In most of the recent visits to heaven, Jesus says, "I am coming sooner than you think!" Choo Thomas saw the rapture, and saw the world after the rapture, with the beast coming into power. Jesus told her time and time again, "I am coming sooner than you think."Some believe that the marriage will take place down here on earth. They read Revelation 19, with preconceived glasses on. Many of those that have visited heaven recently have seen the tables and the preparations for the marriage supper. The last few that have seen this, have seen that it is all complete (as are the mansions) and all preparations are done - just waiting on the rapture! Jesus has told the some recently that the ONLY thing He is waiting on, is that some of the body of Christ is playing in the world, and would be left behind. Our Heavenly Father is giving them a little more time to come out of the world. Jesus is coming for those that are looking for Him. Some true believers are not looking. God is giving them a little more time. It is His great grace!For the readers: I know personal testimony cannot be compared to scripture - yet Paul received everything He received by revealation. If a personal revelation fits with scripture, we should listen. This is the very reason God is taking so many to see heaven and hell recently: so they can share with the church.So I am not in question as to me being here during the 70th week. I know I will not be. I too had a mini-vision of myself being raptured.Many who study revelation, have never had anything revealed to them, about the book. They are just using human knowledge. I learned a long time ago, that if I want wisdom (about scripture) God will give liberally! James tells us this. However, many do not know how to get this wisdom. I discovered that if I ask God about a scripture, and keep on asking until He answers, He will always answer. So in Revelation, I have just waited on God concerning many scriptures - until He answered. Before that time, I was as confused as most of the church is, about this great book.Coop
(guysmith;50337)
Hello Coop,Sorry, I don't see the pre-trib rapture. If there is one, then I would be right there with you. But if there isn't one, well...what are your plans?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
You are correct guy there isnt one except in the minds of men
Hello Coop,Sorry, I don't see the pre-trib rapture. If there is one, then I would be right there with you. But if there isn't one, well...what are your plans?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
You are correct guy there isnt one except in the minds of men
(guysmith;50239)
In my discussions, it appears to me that many of you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at the advent of Christ. This is something I do not understand. Can someone please explain why you take this position? In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
Well before I answered I had to look up the definition of advent haha. But now that I know the meaning I must say I do not take this view. I would love nothing more than to be alive at Christ's return. However, if I am too die before his return than I see no better way than being martyred for my faith. When you die you die no matter how it happens. But if your martyred for your faith in Christ than that sends a strong message to others. Who knows, that might be enough to convince someone who is still on the fence.
In my discussions, it appears to me that many of you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at the advent of Christ. This is something I do not understand. Can someone please explain why you take this position? In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
Well before I answered I had to look up the definition of advent haha. But now that I know the meaning I must say I do not take this view. I would love nothing more than to be alive at Christ's return. However, if I am too die before his return than I see no better way than being martyred for my faith. When you die you die no matter how it happens. But if your martyred for your faith in Christ than that sends a strong message to others. Who knows, that might be enough to convince someone who is still on the fence.
(guysmith;50337)
Hello Coop, Sorry, I don't see the pre-trib rapture. If there is one, then I would be right there with you. But if there isn't one, well...what are your plans? In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
There is no "if" about it. There is NO pre-trib rapture, its not biblical. A hopefull idea of men to escape difficult times of the tribulation.
Hello Coop, Sorry, I don't see the pre-trib rapture. If there is one, then I would be right there with you. But if there isn't one, well...what are your plans? In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
There is no "if" about it. There is NO pre-trib rapture, its not biblical. A hopefull idea of men to escape difficult times of the tribulation.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
In my discussions, it appears to me that many of you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at the advent of Christ. This is something I do not understand. Can someone please explain why you take this position?
Many are martyred...................but those who remain and are alive at his coming...are not.We will not all sleep ..........good news hey
Many are martyred...................but those who remain and are alive at his coming...are not.We will not all sleep ..........good news hey
Hello Coop,You stated: NONE were told that He would come for the church after the tribulation.My response: Are you stating that there is no "first resurrection" at Christ's advent?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
I am sure that no one in there right mind wants to get martyred. However, I have stated in the thread “the purpose of prophecy” that God has provided Mt Zion as a place-of-safety. Based on that information, everyone now has two options:1. Go to Zion and survive to the second coming.2. Do nothing and be martyred.So, if you do not go to Zion, then you essentially prefer to be martyred. This is what I do not understand. Let me refine my question, I am just trying to understand the reasoning. Can you explain why anyone would prefer to stay and be martyred instead of getting on a plane and go to a place God has promised to protect for the duration of the GT? In Yehoshua,Guy Smithhttp://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000
(guysmith;50442)
I am sure that no one in there right mind wants to get martyred. However, I have stated in the thread “the purpose of prophecy” that God has provided Mt Zion as a place-of-safety. Based on that information, everyone now has two options: 1. Go to Zion and survive to the second coming.2. Do nothing and be martyred. So, if you do not go to Zion, then you essentially prefer to be martyred. This is what I do not understand. Let me refine my question, I am just trying to understand the reasoning. Can you explain why anyone would prefer to stay and be martyred instead of getting on a plane and go to a place God has promised to protect for the duration of the GT? In Yehoshua,Guy Smith http://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000
Some people would rather be out in the world trying to connect with the undecided and bring them to christ. I imagine most will head to Zion but there will be some who remain behind trying to help those who can still be helped.
I am sure that no one in there right mind wants to get martyred. However, I have stated in the thread “the purpose of prophecy” that God has provided Mt Zion as a place-of-safety. Based on that information, everyone now has two options: 1. Go to Zion and survive to the second coming.2. Do nothing and be martyred. So, if you do not go to Zion, then you essentially prefer to be martyred. This is what I do not understand. Let me refine my question, I am just trying to understand the reasoning. Can you explain why anyone would prefer to stay and be martyred instead of getting on a plane and go to a place God has promised to protect for the duration of the GT? In Yehoshua,Guy Smith http://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000
Some people would rather be out in the world trying to connect with the undecided and bring them to christ. I imagine most will head to Zion but there will be some who remain behind trying to help those who can still be helped.
(followerofchrist;50380)
There is no "if" about it. There is NO pre-trib rapture, its not biblical. A hopefull idea of men to escape difficult times of the tribulation.
So back up your comments with scriptures, so the rest of us can see where you went wrong. Of course it is biblical, because it is the truth, and exactly the way it will happen. Paul says it, and John proves it - if you can read without preconceived glasses.coop
There is no "if" about it. There is NO pre-trib rapture, its not biblical. A hopefull idea of men to escape difficult times of the tribulation.
So back up your comments with scriptures, so the rest of us can see where you went wrong. Of course it is biblical, because it is the truth, and exactly the way it will happen. Paul says it, and John proves it - if you can read without preconceived glasses.coop
(guysmith;50441)
Hello Coop,You stated: NONE were told that He would come for the church after the tribulation.My response: Are you stating that there is no "first resurrection" at Christ's advent?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
I don't think I am saying that. When Jesus rose, that was part of the "first resurrection." When the dead in Christ rise, that too will be a part of the "first resurrection." When the old testament saints rise, that too will be a part of the "first resurrection." As Paul said, "each in his own order." It is a myth that all these resurrections take place at the same time. However, they are all called the "first" resurrection, because only the sinners take part in the "second" one.coop
Hello Coop,You stated: NONE were told that He would come for the church after the tribulation.My response: Are you stating that there is no "first resurrection" at Christ's advent?In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
I don't think I am saying that. When Jesus rose, that was part of the "first resurrection." When the dead in Christ rise, that too will be a part of the "first resurrection." When the old testament saints rise, that too will be a part of the "first resurrection." As Paul said, "each in his own order." It is a myth that all these resurrections take place at the same time. However, they are all called the "first" resurrection, because only the sinners take part in the "second" one.coop
(guysmith;50442)
I am sure that no one in there right mind wants to get martyred. However, I have stated in the thread “the purpose of prophecy” that God has provided Mt Zion as a place-of-safety. Based on that information, everyone now has two options:1. Go to Zion and survive to the second coming.2. Do nothing and be martyred.So, if you do not go to Zion, then you essentially prefer to be martyred. This is what I do not understand. Let me refine my question, I am just trying to understand the reasoning. Can you explain why anyone would prefer to stay and be martyred instead of getting on a plane and go to a place God has promised to protect for the duration of the GT? In Yehoshua,Guy Smithhttp://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000
What you are stating is another myth of Revelation. Can no one read and understand what both Daniel and John say, that the antichrist beast will have 3 1/2 years of authority over the saints? That he will prevail over them? There is only one exception: the "woman" that flees into the wilderness. She is protected for 1260 days. for the most part, this is speaking of those living in Judea when the abomination is seen. It may be possible to escape death, of one heads out into the NW territories, far into the wilderness. I would not count on it. FAR BETTER to be ready for the rapture, so you are not here for the wrath of God. This is God's way of escape.Coop
I am sure that no one in there right mind wants to get martyred. However, I have stated in the thread “the purpose of prophecy” that God has provided Mt Zion as a place-of-safety. Based on that information, everyone now has two options:1. Go to Zion and survive to the second coming.2. Do nothing and be martyred.So, if you do not go to Zion, then you essentially prefer to be martyred. This is what I do not understand. Let me refine my question, I am just trying to understand the reasoning. Can you explain why anyone would prefer to stay and be martyred instead of getting on a plane and go to a place God has promised to protect for the duration of the GT? In Yehoshua,Guy Smithhttp://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000
What you are stating is another myth of Revelation. Can no one read and understand what both Daniel and John say, that the antichrist beast will have 3 1/2 years of authority over the saints? That he will prevail over them? There is only one exception: the "woman" that flees into the wilderness. She is protected for 1260 days. for the most part, this is speaking of those living in Judea when the abomination is seen. It may be possible to escape death, of one heads out into the NW territories, far into the wilderness. I would not count on it. FAR BETTER to be ready for the rapture, so you are not here for the wrath of God. This is God's way of escape.Coop
Boloney Gods way for us to escape his wrath is to be a faithful believer Gods wrath is not directed at beilvers. Try reading about Passover how did God protect the Hebrews from the angel of death??? I think you'll find it was the Blood of lamb, I believe calvery provided us with all the blood of protection one needs it is only lack to believe this that cause's one to have belive men false doctrines. "Ye of Little Faith"there is nothing new under the Sun what was done before will be done again No Rapture was ever done nor will ever occur.
(lecoop;50482)
So back up your comments with scriptures, so the rest of us can see where you went wrong. Of course it is biblical, because it is the truth, and exactly the way it will happen. Paul says it, and John proves it - if you can read without preconceived glasses. coop
My preconcieved idea was FOR the pre-tribulation rapture. When I joined here I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture and I had never met anyone who didn't believe in it. I did my best to defend it, when they challenged me I really read in depth to try and prove it to the people here and all my studying did was dissprove me. It was pretty hard to accept, I certaintly didn't want to believe it was a lie but I accepted it eventually.
So back up your comments with scriptures, so the rest of us can see where you went wrong. Of course it is biblical, because it is the truth, and exactly the way it will happen. Paul says it, and John proves it - if you can read without preconceived glasses. coop
My preconcieved idea was FOR the pre-tribulation rapture. When I joined here I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture and I had never met anyone who didn't believe in it. I did my best to defend it, when they challenged me I really read in depth to try and prove it to the people here and all my studying did was dissprove me. It was pretty hard to accept, I certaintly didn't want to believe it was a lie but I accepted it eventually.
(lecoop;50375)
Paul undoubted received more revelation knowledge than any of the authors of the new testament. He alone received the revelation of the rapture of the church. Coop
I don't know where you got that information. And I don't trust anyones "revelation" from God that contradicts the Bible's account of the last days. Paul, because he was a former pharisee was no doubt well versed in the Old Testament Prophets. But that does not mean that he received any more revelation than did any of the other apostles. I think it was John that wrote the book of Revelations. That fact alone disputes your assumptions. If you read Paul's writings it is quite clear his understanding of the last days came from his knowledge of the Old Testament and the words of Jesus both in person and in Mt 24 or Mk 13.I Thes. 4 and II Thes 2 are taken directly from the words of Christ and a small amount taken from Daniel in which Jesus told all of us to look. That of course being the abomination of desolation and Pauls description of that event as being when the man of sin sets in the temple calling himself God. (II THes 2:4)Paul got this from Jesus in Mk 13 or Mt 24 and imparted it in II Thes 2.Chronology of events from Jesus and then Paul.1stThe falling away from the faith.Mt 24:9,10, II Thes 2:32ndThen the man of sin revealed by setting up the abomination of desolation.Mt 24:15, II Thes 2:3&43rdThen the resurrection and gathering together unto him (Rapture) of the saints.Mt 24:30,31, II Thes 2:1-4Of course Paul confuses the matter in II Thess 2:9 as he often does in his writing when puts the miracles of the false prophet (Mt 24:24) in later verses in this chapter when they belonged just before the rapture of Mt 24:31.2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, But thank God Paul made clear what is so often distorted by so-called "Christians" to match the heresy of a pre-trib rapture. Many say that the "even him" in verse II Thes 2:9 is talking about the antichrist. That is absurd. First of all verse 9 is not a sentence. It is a continuation of the verse before. And the words "even him" are not in the original Greek text. It was added during the translation. The punctuation and verse numbers were also not in the original text, it was added later in the translation. So lets take a look at the way it should read.2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, Now it is obvious that the "even him" is speaking of Christ and his coming being after the signs and lying wonders. Jesus is the one who is "coming" and the man of sin is the one that is "revealed" before Christ's coming just as it says in the first four verses of this chapter.Another direct contradiction of scripture that falsifies the interpretation of "even him" as being the anti-christ is the fact the Rev 13 has the antichrsit or first beast coming to power first and then the false prophet or second beast showing the signs and wonders just as Jesus said in Mt 24. And all of this happening before the catching away of the Christians.To answer the poster's question. Read Stevens account in Acts. And how many times does Paul and the other apostles make it clear that the martyres for Christ would obtain the better resurrection? Even Jesus made that quite clear.
Paul undoubted received more revelation knowledge than any of the authors of the new testament. He alone received the revelation of the rapture of the church. Coop
I don't know where you got that information. And I don't trust anyones "revelation" from God that contradicts the Bible's account of the last days. Paul, because he was a former pharisee was no doubt well versed in the Old Testament Prophets. But that does not mean that he received any more revelation than did any of the other apostles. I think it was John that wrote the book of Revelations. That fact alone disputes your assumptions. If you read Paul's writings it is quite clear his understanding of the last days came from his knowledge of the Old Testament and the words of Jesus both in person and in Mt 24 or Mk 13.I Thes. 4 and II Thes 2 are taken directly from the words of Christ and a small amount taken from Daniel in which Jesus told all of us to look. That of course being the abomination of desolation and Pauls description of that event as being when the man of sin sets in the temple calling himself God. (II THes 2:4)Paul got this from Jesus in Mk 13 or Mt 24 and imparted it in II Thes 2.Chronology of events from Jesus and then Paul.1stThe falling away from the faith.Mt 24:9,10, II Thes 2:32ndThen the man of sin revealed by setting up the abomination of desolation.Mt 24:15, II Thes 2:3&43rdThen the resurrection and gathering together unto him (Rapture) of the saints.Mt 24:30,31, II Thes 2:1-4Of course Paul confuses the matter in II Thess 2:9 as he often does in his writing when puts the miracles of the false prophet (Mt 24:24) in later verses in this chapter when they belonged just before the rapture of Mt 24:31.2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, But thank God Paul made clear what is so often distorted by so-called "Christians" to match the heresy of a pre-trib rapture. Many say that the "even him" in verse II Thes 2:9 is talking about the antichrist. That is absurd. First of all verse 9 is not a sentence. It is a continuation of the verse before. And the words "even him" are not in the original Greek text. It was added during the translation. The punctuation and verse numbers were also not in the original text, it was added later in the translation. So lets take a look at the way it should read.2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, Now it is obvious that the "even him" is speaking of Christ and his coming being after the signs and lying wonders. Jesus is the one who is "coming" and the man of sin is the one that is "revealed" before Christ's coming just as it says in the first four verses of this chapter.Another direct contradiction of scripture that falsifies the interpretation of "even him" as being the anti-christ is the fact the Rev 13 has the antichrsit or first beast coming to power first and then the false prophet or second beast showing the signs and wonders just as Jesus said in Mt 24. And all of this happening before the catching away of the Christians.To answer the poster's question. Read Stevens account in Acts. And how many times does Paul and the other apostles make it clear that the martyres for Christ would obtain the better resurrection? Even Jesus made that quite clear.
(Just-the-facts;50678)
I don't know where you got that information. And I don't trust anyones "revelation" from God that contradicts the Bible's account of the last days. Paul, because he was a former pharisee was no doubt well versed in the Old Testament Prophets. But that does not mean that he received any more revelation than did any of the other apostles. I think it was John that wrote the book of Revelations. That fact alone disputes your assumptions.
Paul got his salvation message, i.e. salvation through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor 15:1-4)through direct revelation. He did not go up to Jerusalem and confer with those "who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me." Same with his knowledge of the gifts of the Spirit, and much of what he writes in much of the New Testament. The rapture was not written in the Old. He got it from revelations from God.
I Thes. 4 and II Thes 2 are taken directly from the words of Christ and a small amount taken from Daniel in which Jesus told all of us to look. That of course being the abomination of desolation and Pauls description of that event as being when the man of sin sets in the temple calling himself God. (II THes 2:4)Paul got this from Jesus in Mk 13 or Mt 24 and imparted it in II Thes 2.Chronology of events from Jesus and then Paul.
Sorry, but these books of Paul were written BEFORE any of the Gospels were written. I know we believe in miracles, but this miracle was that Paul recieved what he wrote, from direct revelations from heaven. After all, Jesus said that He would use revelation knowledge to build His church.
Of course Paul confuses the matter in II Thess 2:9 as he often does in his writing when puts the miracles of the false prophet (Mt 24:24) in later verses in this chapter when they belonged just before the rapture of Mt 24:31.2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Was Paul "confused" or are you confused? Personally, I would believe Paul. How could the "rapture" of the church, be in Matthew 24:31? Who was Jesus speaking to? What was He speaking about? He was speaking to Hebrew men, about the end of their age, i.e. the 70th week of Daniel (it is not called the 70th week of Paul). The subject is NOT the church. Paul's chronology is perfect, and agrees with Revelation. The rapture is the "departure" or the "taking out of the way" of the church. Then, and only then, is the leopard beast revealed.
But thank God Paul made clear what it is so often distorted by so-called "Christians" to match the heresy of a pre-trib rapture. Many say that the "even him" in verse II Thes 2:9 is talking about the antichrist. That is absurd. First of all verse 9 is not a sentence. It is a continuation of the verse before. And the words "even him" are not in the original Greek text. It was added during the translation. The punctuation and verse numbers were also not in the original text, it was added later in the translation. So lets take a look at the way it should read.2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Let's read it in some other translations, and see what the intent of the author was:American Standard Version2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;2:9 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,Darby's English Translation2:8 and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming;2:9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of falsehoodDouay Rheims2:8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,2:9 Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,Weymouth New Testament2:8 and then the Lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will sweep away with the tempest of His anger, and utterly overwhelm by the awful splendour of His Coming.2:9 The appearing of the Lawless one will be attended by various miracles and tokens and delusive marvels--for so Satan works--Young's Literal Translation2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,2:9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,We see that the KJV did a pretty good job, which they usually did. Adding the "Even him" did not take away the meaning meant by the Holy Spirit when He caused Paul to write. Jesus did NOT come according to thw workings of satan. That is just silly: a classic case of reading with preconceived glasses.
Now it is obvious that the "even him" is speaking of Christ and his coming being after the signs and lying wonders. Jesus is the one who is "coming" and the man of sin is the one that is "revealed" before Christ's coming just as it says in the first four verses of this chapter.
It is "obvious" only when read with preconceived glasses. I will agree that Jesus is coming, but the leopard beast of Revelation is coming also. However, the church will not be here to see him, as we have no appointment with the wrath of God. No appointment means we won't show up.
Another direct contradiction of scripture that falsifies the interpretation of "even him" as being the anti-christ is the fact the Rev 13 has the antichrsit or first beast coming to power first and then the false prophet or second beast showing the signs and wonders just as Jesus said in Mt 24. And all of this happening before the catching away of the Christians.
To be factual, "all this happening before the" elect are gathered by angels. There is no scriptural proof that this "gathering" of the elect is speaking of the church. In fact, it does not fit the church at all. Coop
I don't know where you got that information. And I don't trust anyones "revelation" from God that contradicts the Bible's account of the last days. Paul, because he was a former pharisee was no doubt well versed in the Old Testament Prophets. But that does not mean that he received any more revelation than did any of the other apostles. I think it was John that wrote the book of Revelations. That fact alone disputes your assumptions.
Paul got his salvation message, i.e. salvation through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor 15:1-4)through direct revelation. He did not go up to Jerusalem and confer with those "who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me." Same with his knowledge of the gifts of the Spirit, and much of what he writes in much of the New Testament. The rapture was not written in the Old. He got it from revelations from God.
I Thes. 4 and II Thes 2 are taken directly from the words of Christ and a small amount taken from Daniel in which Jesus told all of us to look. That of course being the abomination of desolation and Pauls description of that event as being when the man of sin sets in the temple calling himself God. (II THes 2:4)Paul got this from Jesus in Mk 13 or Mt 24 and imparted it in II Thes 2.Chronology of events from Jesus and then Paul.
Sorry, but these books of Paul were written BEFORE any of the Gospels were written. I know we believe in miracles, but this miracle was that Paul recieved what he wrote, from direct revelations from heaven. After all, Jesus said that He would use revelation knowledge to build His church.
Of course Paul confuses the matter in II Thess 2:9 as he often does in his writing when puts the miracles of the false prophet (Mt 24:24) in later verses in this chapter when they belonged just before the rapture of Mt 24:31.2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Was Paul "confused" or are you confused? Personally, I would believe Paul. How could the "rapture" of the church, be in Matthew 24:31? Who was Jesus speaking to? What was He speaking about? He was speaking to Hebrew men, about the end of their age, i.e. the 70th week of Daniel (it is not called the 70th week of Paul). The subject is NOT the church. Paul's chronology is perfect, and agrees with Revelation. The rapture is the "departure" or the "taking out of the way" of the church. Then, and only then, is the leopard beast revealed.
But thank God Paul made clear what it is so often distorted by so-called "Christians" to match the heresy of a pre-trib rapture. Many say that the "even him" in verse II Thes 2:9 is talking about the antichrist. That is absurd. First of all verse 9 is not a sentence. It is a continuation of the verse before. And the words "even him" are not in the original Greek text. It was added during the translation. The punctuation and verse numbers were also not in the original text, it was added later in the translation. So lets take a look at the way it should read.2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Let's read it in some other translations, and see what the intent of the author was:American Standard Version2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;2:9 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,Darby's English Translation2:8 and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming;2:9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of falsehoodDouay Rheims2:8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,2:9 Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,Weymouth New Testament2:8 and then the Lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will sweep away with the tempest of His anger, and utterly overwhelm by the awful splendour of His Coming.2:9 The appearing of the Lawless one will be attended by various miracles and tokens and delusive marvels--for so Satan works--Young's Literal Translation2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,2:9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,We see that the KJV did a pretty good job, which they usually did. Adding the "Even him" did not take away the meaning meant by the Holy Spirit when He caused Paul to write. Jesus did NOT come according to thw workings of satan. That is just silly: a classic case of reading with preconceived glasses.
Now it is obvious that the "even him" is speaking of Christ and his coming being after the signs and lying wonders. Jesus is the one who is "coming" and the man of sin is the one that is "revealed" before Christ's coming just as it says in the first four verses of this chapter.
It is "obvious" only when read with preconceived glasses. I will agree that Jesus is coming, but the leopard beast of Revelation is coming also. However, the church will not be here to see him, as we have no appointment with the wrath of God. No appointment means we won't show up.
Another direct contradiction of scripture that falsifies the interpretation of "even him" as being the anti-christ is the fact the Rev 13 has the antichrsit or first beast coming to power first and then the false prophet or second beast showing the signs and wonders just as Jesus said in Mt 24. And all of this happening before the catching away of the Christians.
To be factual, "all this happening before the" elect are gathered by angels. There is no scriptural proof that this "gathering" of the elect is speaking of the church. In fact, it does not fit the church at all. Coop
First of all coop you did what a Christian should never do. You deceptively left out what I wrote to make your argument seem more valid. WHAT YOU LEFT OUT IN YOUR QUOTE"If you read Paul's writings it is quite clear his understanding of the last days came from his knowledge of the Old Testament and the words of Jesus both in person and in Mt 24 or Mk 13." I did not say that he received no revelation from God. I said and you should know that the New Testament says no where that Paul had more revelation than the other apostles. And He did not write a book as John did of completely prophetic revelation.And your assumptions that Paul never read or heard the worlds that Jesus spoke is ridiculous. Were you there to know if Paul had read a copy of the Book of Mark which is well know as one of the first Christian writings?And your interpretation of Mt24:30 is also ridiculous. Where in the history books does it say that Jesus came in the clouds and gathered together his elect from the four corners of the earth in 70 AD? And the beginning of that chapter said the lords coming AND THE END OF THE WORLD.Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Does that mean the end of the world happened in 70 AD?And all of what Jesus said was to Jews. Does that mean it was only meant for Jews.I may not be a Hebrew scholar but I do study Greek and there is no justification for the use of the "even him" or any of those other badly distorted translations. Those translations and many commentaries such as are found in the Schofield Bible have obviously been designed to deceive.Here again is an example of the beauty of the Greek language because of its clarity.2Th 2:9 Even him, whose3739 coming3952 is2076 after2596 the working1753 of Satan4567 with1722 all3956 power1411 and2532 signs4592 and2532 lying5579 wonders,5059 First the italics in the KJV Bible means it was not present in the original text.Second the meaning of the word coming in both the verse before talking about the COMING of Christ and the word COMING in this verse.StrongscomingG3952παρουσίαparousiapar-oo-see'-ahFrom the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.Thayer Definition:G3952παρουσίαparousia1) presence2) the coming, arrival, advent2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of GodLook it up and you will find seven different words in the Greek translated to coming or coming up. This Greek word is almost exclusively used concerning the coming of Christ. THAT IS WHY IT IS IN THE DEFINITIONS!This last point must be made about this. Every time the man of sin is referred to in that chapter the word revealed is used. He is not coming from anywhere. He is already here he is revealed.Strongs revealedapokaluptōap-ok-al-oop'-toFrom G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.Not appointed to wrath.I am sorry but I am so sick of hearing the same old flawed arguments. Don't you pre-tribbers study or do you only repeat what some false prophet has taught you?The Greek word "thlipsis" is translated tribulation, affliction, and persecution is used 43 times in the New Testament and 40 times it is describing the suffering of Christians.G2347θλίψιςthlipsisthlip'-sisFrom G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.It is this word that is used in Mt 24:29 not wrath.You are correct in saying that Christians are not appointed to wrath as the scriptures say. But wrath is not tribulation because Jesus and Paul said that Christians were appointed to tribulation, persecution and affliction which is exactly what Mt 24 says.WRATHThe Greek words "thumos" and "orgē" translated into wrath are quite different from tribulation as in the "GREAT TRIBULATION".G2372wrathθυμόςthumosthoo-mos'From G2380; passion (as if breathing hard): - fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare G5590.G3709wrathὀργήorgēor-gay'From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.These two words translated wrath that have a very similar definitions but they are completely different words with completely different definitions from the word tribulation.
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