Hello just-the-facts, I will give you just the facts. You sound so frustrated and impatient. That is just not any example of Jesus to someone. When you did that "you did what a Christian should never do." As if Jesus was so annoyed with his created children as you have been here. Think about Jesus before you post your words. Pre-tribbers (which I am not one of) are blood bought siblings of ours too. They will have changed their ideas when it is over. And we will to because we are surely missing certain things. That being said, I agree with most of your points. Sorry for being so matter-of-fact, and no offense please. But I would definitely agree with almost all conservative Bible scholars that Paul definitely had significantly deeper understanding that any of the other twelve apostles or any church leaders of the day. Jesus said, "I have many other things to say to you, but you cannot bear them right now." Paul's teachings were a huge part of what Jesus was going to say. Paul taught about the Gentile inclusion into God's kingdom and church. He taught about eschatology more thoroughly than any other NT author. Paul pioneered the foundation of the historical predominantly Gentile populated church. Paul was given revelation and understanding more than any man aside from Jesus, as is obvious from the NT writings. However, the "rapture" was in the Old Testament, though not as clearly as in the New. Consider the following: "4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you." Deut 30:4 "3 Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply." Jer23:3 "17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’Ezekiel 11:17 "13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem." Isa 27:13 "Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms... I will save them from all the backslidings [6] in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land [7] and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore." Ezekiel 37:21b-36, excluding vs 23. "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land." Ezekiel 37:12-14. And as for us Gentile believers, consider... "The Lord God,who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares,“I will gather yet others to himbesides those already gathered.” Isaiah 56:8 And us Gentiles' presence in the consumation of Israel's kingdom (AKA the millenium) is affirmed by Jesus here: "I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven," Mat 8:11. The foundation of Jesus' teaching is the Old Covenant scripture. It is not a totally new revelation from God. The "rapture" mentioned in Mat 24, Luke 21 and then directly quoted from and expanded on by Paul in 1 Thes 4 is not a totally new concept at all. It is the complete and final regathering of Israel's exiled who werre exiled under the law's judgment. It was fortold that one day all Israel would be saved, have new spirits and hearts that obey and never backslide, and that they would be regathered to the land under the Davidic Messiah's peaceful rule. The "rapture" Jesus spoke of in Mat 24 and Luke 21 is the regathering of Israel's exiles who are alive as well as those faithful in Israel who had died, being resurrected, and sharing in Messiah's millenial rule. The mystery hidden in the Old Covenant times was that there were to be numerous Gentiles of faith in Israel's Messiah who would also be joint heirs with Israel. The "rapture of 1 Thes 4 is identical to Jesus' "gathering of the elect" in the Olovet Discourse. Compare the two with my color coding here:"Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mat 24:30-31."through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, [4] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thes 4:14-17.Paul wrote this, not out of a unique and fresh personal revelation, but he was referring to Jesus' words commonly known to the church of that time. "For this we say to you at the Lord's own word..." 1 Thes 4:15a.PS, Are the living ones who will be caught up by the angels then transformed into glorious bodies? Prove it to me please.
Many prefer to be martyred.......
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Unless I missed it you forgot the most clear scripture in the Old Testament talking about the resurrectionDan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.eliyahu;50734] However said:
[/QUOTE]Here's your proof1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(Just-the-facts;50855)
Unless I missed it you forgot the most clear scripture in the Old Testament talking about the resurrectionDan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Here's your proof1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Hi friend
My verses were not really intended to be comprehensive and they were covering the topic of the "rapture" in the Old Testament. Daniel is speaking of only resurrection specifically. I am isolating the topic of the "rapture" specifically. Daniel mentions no "rapture" of any living people. As for 1 Cor 15, that passage does not actually mention a "rapture" either. It does discuss the final resurrection. It is not specifically and only referring to the resurrection accompanying the rapture, if it does at all. Why do I say this? Just before those verses you quoted, Paul said: "23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (two thousand years ago), then at his coming (the second coming) those who belong to Christ (those who are dead and are yet in Christ). 24 Then comes the end, (after the "millenium") when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [3] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:23-28. This is talking completely and unquestionably about the end of the millenium from verse 24 and on.There are two resurrections: one at the "rapture" and one at the end of the millenial reign. Each is very similar. But I am asking why we apparently read into things and assert that at the second coming the living saints are then transformed into glorified bodies. Where does the Bible ever say that at all? If that is so, and maybe it is or isn't, what Jews will populate the millenial Israel and fulfill all the prophecies about Israel in the millenium? If two thirds of world Jewry are wiped out before Jesus' return, and the last third are born again at that time, the last third will be raptured as being members of the body of Messiah. What Jews are left then? "8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,two thirds shall be cut off and perish,and one third shall be left alive.9 And I will put this third into the fire,and refine them as one refines silver,and test them as gold is tested.They will call upon my name,and I will answer them.I will say, ‘They are my people’;and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’” Zech 13:8-9. Ezekiel 20 says that the rebels will have been purged from the exiles before God eternally returns the living, mortal survivors of that time to their land: "33 “As I live, declares the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I will be king over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face. 36 As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you, declares the Lord God. 37 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord." Ezekiel 20:33-38.
Unless I missed it you forgot the most clear scripture in the Old Testament talking about the resurrectionDan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Here's your proof1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Hi friend
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