MARK 6:3 DID JESUS HAVE BROTHERS AND SISTERS ?

[Marymog]

An argument from silence is invalid.

Let's stay on point.

You yourself say that your argument is based on the silence of Scripture, and that is what I see to, so we are agreed.

Much love!
Mark

Right....so since it is silent we take into context what is said....and Scripture ONLY says that Jesus was a child of Mary....not one other person is listed as a child of Mary.

+1 Mary

Zero for marks

 

[marks]

Right....so since it is silent we take into context what is said....and Scripture ONLY says that Jesus was a child of Mary....not one other person is listed as a child of Mary.

+1 Mary

Zero for marks

Hi Recordkeeping Mary,

Scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters, no silence there!

You may want to adjust your scorecard.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Once again, you've resorted to lying because you simply cannot address the points I have made.

This is your standard stupid response when the false teachings of the Catholic church are exposed. Mary is substituted for Christ in the RCC and you well know it. Ask any ordinary Catholic who is not well-versed in casuistry.

1. The Bible says that Jesus of Nazareth was the only sinless human being who ever lived, and even Mary acknowledged Christ as her Savior. But here are the lies of the RCC:

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
491. The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature... As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race... Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary.."

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man..

2. The Bible says that there is only ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus (who is the only Light of the Gentiles) and only God hears and answers prayers. But here are the lies of the RCC (which also teaches that Mary was taken up to Heaven just like Christ, and prayers are offered to Mary, the *light of the Gentiles*): The following is extracted from a large article on Devotion to Mary in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia.

With the Merovingian and Carlovingian developments of Christianityin the west came the more authoritative acceptance of Marian devotion as an integral part of the Church's life.

It is difficult to give precise dates for the introduction of the various festivals, but it has already been pointed out in the article CALENDAR that the celebration of the Assumption, Annunciation, Nativity and Purification of Our Lady may certainly be traced to this period. Three of these feasts appear in the Calendar of St. Willibrord of the end of the seventh century, the Assumption being assigned both to 18 January, after the practice of the Gallican Church, and to August (which approximates to the present Roman date), while the absence of the Annunciation is probably due only to accident.

Again we may quite confidently affirm that the position of the Blessed Virgin in the liturgical formula of the Church was by this time securely established. Even if we ignore the Canon of the Roman Mass which had taken very much the form it now retains before the close of the sixth century, the "praefatio" for the January festival of the Assumption in the Gallican Rite, as well as other prayers which may safely be assigned to no later date than the seventh century, give proof of a fervent cultus of the Blessed Virgin.

In poetic language Mary is declared not only marvellous by the pledge which she conceived through faith but glorious in the translation by which she departed" (P.L., LXII, 244-46), the belief in her Assumption being clearly and repeatedly taken for granted, as it had been a century earlier by Gregory of Tours. She is also described in the liturgy as "the beautiful chamber from which the worthy spouse comes forth, the light of the gentiles, the hope of the faithful, the spoiler of the demons, the confusion of the Jews, the vessel of life, the tabernacle of glory, the heavenly temple, whose merits, tender maiden as she was, are the more clearly displayed when they are set in contrast with the example of ancient Eve" (ib., 245).

At the same period numberless churches were erected under Mary's dedication, and many of these were among the most important in Christendom. The cathedrals of Reims, Chartres, Rouen, Amiens,Nîmes, Evreux, Paris, Bayeux, Séez, Toulon etc., though built at different dates, were all consecrated in her honour. It is true that the origin of many of these French shrines of Our Lady is impenetrably shrouded in the mists of legends... [not that legends make any differene to Catholics]

So if anyone is "ignorant" it is Catholics who believe these legends, lies, and fables about Mary.

 

[marks]

There is nothing more to discuss.....Scripture NEVER names anyone but Jesus as a child of Mary.

But Scripture DOES name Jesus' brothers.

Much love!

 

[101G]

That's precisely the kind of cowardly "non-answer" I would expect from you.
A thousand denials doesn't equal a SINGLE explanation.

Now - anybody willing to take a REAL crack at posts #21 and #132??

so what about post #21? that's nothing new. and post 132, she is not a ark of "THE" Life.

so?.

PICJAG

 

[Marymog]

Does that change a single word written?

We can discuss authorship of passages of Scripture, I suppose this means you are done discussing Jesus' family?

Much love!

No, it does not change a single word.

Since scripture is silent on who wrote them and you think silence in Scripture is not evidence you should never call the book of Mark or Matthew the book of Mark or Matthew.

 

[Marymog]

But Scripture DOES name Jesus' brothers.

Much love!

Yup, it does name Jesus's adelphos. It DOES NOT name Mary's children EXCEPT JESUS.

What does adelphos mean?

1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. any fellow or man

1. 
   etc. etc.

+1 Mary

zero for marks

 

[Marymog]

so what about post #21? that's nothing new. and post 132, she is not a ark of "THE" Life.

so?.

PICJAG

PICJAG???

Curious Mary

 

[101G]

Who's "BROTHER?"
Galatians 1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother". if one use the word G80 ἀδελφός adelphos (a-d̮el-fos') in this case it would be of no used. for the verse qualified it's use. by saying "the Lord's brother" and not "our brother" as in
2 Corinthians 8:22 "And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you".

but in direct relation to only his kin by birth mother. scripture, Mark 6:1-6 "And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching".

now if James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon was his brothers in the faith why not mention by name the other 9 disciples also, since they was his brothers also, if one use G80 ἀδελφός. adelphos.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

PICJAG???

Curious Mary

Peace In Christ Jesus the Almighty God.
no "t", no more cross.

 

[marks]

No, it does not change a single word.

Since scripture is silent on who wrote them and you think silence in Scripture is not evidence you should never call the book of Mark or Matthew the book of Mark or Matthew.

Complete misdirection away from the discussion at hand . . . why?

To somehow convince me that an argument from silence is a valid argument?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yup, it does name Jesus's adelphos. It DOES NOT name Mary's children EXCEPT JESUS.

What does adelphos mean?

1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. any fellow or man

1. 
   etc. etc.

+1 Mary

zero for marks

Hi Many Pointed Mary,

I'll go with your def. #1. Occams Razor.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Peace In Christ Jesus the Almighty God.
no "t", no more cross.

I've wondered that also.

Thank you!

 

[Marymog]

Complete misdirection away from the discussion at hand . . . why?

To somehow convince me that an argument from silence is a valid argument?

Much love!

Not a misdirection.

Scripture is silent on Mary having any other children than Jesus therefor "silence of Scripture" is valid in our discussion.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is your standard stupid response when the false teachings of the Catholic church are exposed. Mary is substituted for Christ in the RCC and you well know it. Ask any ordinary Catholic who is not well-versed in casuistry.

1. The Bible says that Jesus of Nazareth was the only sinless human being who ever lived, and even Mary acknowledged Christ as her Savior. But here are the lies of the RCC:

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
491. The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature... As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race... Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary.."

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man..

2. The Bible says that there is only ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus (who is the only Light of the Gentiles) and only God hears and answers prayers. But here are the lies of the RCC (which also teaches that Mary was taken up to Heaven just like Christ, and prayers are offered to Mary, the *light of the Gentiles*): The following is extracted from a large article on Devotion to Mary in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia.

With the Merovingian and Carlovingian developments of Christianityin the west came the more authoritative acceptance of Marian devotion as an integral part of the Church's life.

It is difficult to give precise dates for the introduction of the various festivals, but it has already been pointed out in the article CALENDAR that the celebration of the Assumption, Annunciation, Nativity and Purification of Our Lady may certainly be traced to this period. Three of these feasts appear in the Calendar of St. Willibrord of the end of the seventh century, the Assumption being assigned both to 18 January, after the practice of the Gallican Church, and to August (which approximates to the present Roman date), while the absence of the Annunciation is probably due only to accident.

Again we may quite confidently affirm that the position of the Blessed Virgin in the liturgical formula of the Church was by this time securely established. Even if we ignore the Canon of the Roman Mass which had taken very much the form it now retains before the close of the sixth century, the "praefatio" for the January festival of the Assumption in the Gallican Rite, as well as other prayers which may safely be assigned to no later date than the seventh century, give proof of a fervent cultus of the Blessed Virgin.

In poetic language Mary is declared not only marvellous by the pledge which she conceived through faith but glorious in the translation by which she departed" (P.L., LXII, 244-46), the belief in her Assumption being clearly and repeatedly taken for granted, as it had been a century earlier by Gregory of Tours. She is also described in the liturgy as "the beautiful chamber from which the worthy spouse comes forth, the light of the gentiles, the hope of the faithful, the spoiler of the demons, the confusion of the Jews, the vessel of life, the tabernacle of glory, the heavenly temple, whose merits, tender maiden as she was, are the more clearly displayed when they are set in contrast with the example of ancient Eve" (ib., 245).

At the same period numberless churches were erected under Mary's dedication, and many of these were among the most important in Christendom. The cathedrals of Reims, Chartres, Rouen, Amiens,Nîmes, Evreux, Paris, Bayeux, Séez, Toulon etc., though built at different dates, were all consecrated in her honour. It is true that the origin of many of these French shrines of Our Lady is impenetrably shrouded in the mists of legends... [not that legends make any differene to Catholics]

So if anyone is "ignorant" it is Catholics who believe these legends, lies, and fables about Mary.

Let's begin with your comment in RED because it's probably the most ignorant.

The Bible DOES say that Jesus sis the only mediator between God and Man - for the simple reason that only HIS sacrifice makes peace between us and God. NOTHING other than that ONE sacrifice can bring peace between us and God.

That being said - we are ALL called upon to be intercessors and mediators in a lesser sense as the Bible CLEARLY shows us (2 Cor. 1:10-11, Eph. 6:18-20, 1 Tim. 2:1-4, James 5:16). The fact that YOU are ignorant of this speaks volumes . . .

As for the titles that you object to (hope of the faithful, the spoiler of the demons, the confusion of the Jews, the vessel of life, the tabernacle of glory, the heavenly temple) - they're all true.
She IS the vessel of Life (Jesus)
She IS the Heavenly Temple (Ark, Rev, 11:19-12:1).
She IS the Tabernacle of Glory (Jesus).
She IS the confusion of the Jews (the Virgin Birth).
She IS the Hope of the Faithful (in Heaven, Body & Soul). This is OUR hope.

As for churches being built in honor of Mary - MANY MANY churches are names after MANY MANY pother saints - but are ALL dedicated to GOD.

As for her obedience becoming the cause for salvation - it's TRUE.
Her "Yes" to God started God's perfect plan of salvation in motion. Like it or not - God CHOSE Mary - not YOU or YOUR mom or ANYBODY else.

I suggest you STUDY your Bible instead of simply quoting it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who's "BROTHER?"
Galatians 1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother". if one use the word G80 ἀδελφός adelphos (a-d̮el-fos') in this case it would be of no used. for the verse qualified it's use. by saying "the Lord's brother" and not "our brother" as in
2 Corinthians 8:22 "And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you".

but in direct relation to only his kin by birth mother. scripture, Mark 6:1-6 "And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching".

now if James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon was his brothers in the faith why not mention by name the other 9 disciples also, since they was his brothers also, if one use G80 ἀδελφός. adelphos.

PICJAG.

ALREADY covered that in post #21.
YOU need to stop and READ - then respond.

Here it is again for your edification . . .

Let's start with the names of the "Adelphoi" you mentioned - James and Joses (Joseph) - and the women standing near the foot of the cross with Mary, Mother of Jesus:

The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joses. She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” (adelphe) (John 19:25). She cannot be Mary's uterine sister because she is also named "Mary", so she must be some other relation - making her children some distant relation of Jesus.

James is elsewhere described as the son of "Alphaeus" (Matt. 10:3), which would mean this other Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. However, Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as "Alphaeus" or as "Clopas".

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. ANY attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.

Finally - The Aramaic word, “ach”, encompasses the meanings for brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman. The SAME is true for the Greek work for "Brother", "Adelphos".

- In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother, making him Abraham's NEPHEW (Gen. 11:26–28).

- In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his UNCLE Laban.

- Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their COUSINS (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

The case against Jesus having uterine siblings and Mary having had "other children" is FAR more overwhelming than ANY evidence to the contrary.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Complete misdirection away from the discussion at hand . . . why?

To somehow convince me that an argument from silence is a valid argument?

Much love!

WHY??
You anti-Catholics use it ALL the time to try to "disprove" the Apostolic Tradition of Infant Baptism . . .

 

[101G]

ALREADY covered that in post #21.
YOU need to stop and READ - then respond.

Here it is again for your edification . . .

Let's start with the names of the "Adelphoi" you mentioned - James and Joses (Joseph) - and the women standing near the foot of the cross with Mary, Mother of Jesus:

The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joses. She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” (adelphe) (John 19:25). She cannot be Mary's uterine sister because she is also named "Mary", so she must be some other relation - making her children some distant relation of Jesus.

James is elsewhere described as the son of "Alphaeus" (Matt. 10:3), which would mean this other Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. However, Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as "Alphaeus" or as "Clopas".

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. ANY attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.

Finally - The Aramaic word, “ach”, encompasses the meanings for brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman. The SAME is true for the Greek work for "Brother", "Adelphos".

- In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother, making him Abraham's NEPHEW (Gen. 11:26–28).

- In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his UNCLE Laban.

- Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their COUSINS (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

The case against Jesus having uterine siblings and Mary having had "other children" is FAR more overwhelming than ANY evidence to the contrary.

this is what the bible say, she had other children. case closed.

PICJAG.

 

[BreadOfLife]

this is what the bible say, she had other children. case closed.

PICJAG.

No - that's NOT what the "Bible say".

Show me the chapter and verse that talks about Mary having other children.
CAN you do that?

 

[Marymog]

Hi Many Pointed Mary,

I'll go with your def. #1. Occams Razor.

Much love!

Very impressive marks. I LOVE the way you made your point....

I will TRULY use Occam's Razor: The simple solution to the question "Did Mary have other children" comes from these two passages:

Is not this (Jesus) the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?”

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Very simply put (Occam's Razor) only Jesus was called "the son of Mary" or "Mary the mother of Jesus" in these passages.

Mary