Marriage
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(SealedEternal;51965)
Not likely Billy.SealedEternal
Youre right...here or at CF.
Your doctrine is just too easily refuted.
Not likely Billy.SealedEternal
Youre right...here or at CF.
tim_from_pa
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Simply put, it is not right to divorce. Yes, a person is allowed to divorce if the spouse has been unfaithful as Jesus taught, but then both people ought to stay divorced or be reconciled again unless one or the other dies.In the OT, the Lord divorced Israel, He did not divorce Judah His other wife, but rather she was punished. Being a divorced wife (as much as the Lord hated doing it) and Him the husband left them both separated from each other. It was only proper to marry again if there was a death, in which the Lord died and became the new husband for Israel, and these physical children of Israel became the church. (The same can now be said of Judah in this age of grace if they accept their new husband)So, in a nutshell, once God divorced, He stayed that way until the death of Christ.Likewise, I would say do not divorce, as there is enough of a "marry-go-round" these days. But if things are that intolerable, like a husband slamming a wife around or whatever, then I say it's OK---- just stay single. Probably such a person is better off that way.I thank God I'm with the same woman 22 years now and going strong, kids are now out of HS and going to college. When I studied genealogy of our family, it was amazing how many kids are products of two, three or more marriages that they have no sense of roots any longer. Divorce is tragic for everyone involved.
Just to put a non-scriptural spin on things here.....If God is a God of mercy then why would he tell us that divorce is not allowed. There are plenty of marriages that are unhealthy particularly for women who are beaten by their spouses. Why would God say "no, you chose to marry him, tough luck if he beats you" That is not very merciful is it?So if I am understanding correctly here....We can divorce for sincere reasons not every reason under the sun though (adultery is grounds for divorce?). We cannot re-marry the person we divorced. We can re-marry after a divorce. We can marry whom we like.
(tim_from_pa;51968)
Simply put, it is not right to divorce. Yes, a person is allowed to divorce if the spouse has been unfaithful as Jesus taught, but then both people ought to stay divorced or be reconciled again unless one or the other dies.In the OT, the Lord divorced Israel, He did not divorce Judah His other wife, but rather she was punished. Being a divorced wife (as much as the Lord hated doing it) and Him the husband left them both separated from each other. It was only proper to marry again if there was a death, in which the Lord died and became the new husband for Israel, and these physical children of Israel became the church. (The same can now be said of Judah in this age of grace if they accept their new husband)So, in a nutshell, once God divorced, He stayed that way until the death of Christ.Likewise, I would say do not divorce, as there is enough of a "marry-go-round" these days. But if things are that intolerable, like a husband slamming a wife around or whatever, then I say it's OK---- just stay single. Probably such a person is better off that way.I thank God I'm with the same woman 22 years now and going strong, kids are now out of HS and going to college. When I studied genealogy of our family, it was amazing how many kids are products of two, three or more marriages that they have no sense of roots any longer. Divorce is tragic for everyone involved.
Tim, your theology is really out there man.
God ENDED that covenant He made with all the peoples as PROVEN in Zechariah 11.This Judah nonsense need not applyGod DID put that covenant away.God DID create a NEW covenant.Metaphorically, as close as is possible given the VAST differences between marriage and Gods covenants with man, God IS a 'divorcee' who has 'remarried'.Im really happy that your marriage is great, chap, but some of us werent so lucky.
Divorce is completely allowable where there is cause and remarriage is as well.The ONLY command to 'stay single' in the NT is where two believers have left their marriage...sorry but its a fact.Dont feel you have the right to put a yoke of bondage on His children where you have no right or authority to do so.======================"Remain Unmarried or reconcile” vs "not in bondage" by Wm TiptonAssertions/Conclusions of this ArticleWe will show briefly that the commandment of the Lord to ‘remain unmarried or reconcile’ is NOT a blanket commandment in all marital situations where a breaking of the marriage is taking place, but is instead directed to two believers who have left their marriage without just cause, and that Paul also had no commandment for those marriages that weren’t equally yoked, didnt given the same instruction to these who were married to an unbeliever, not having any commandment from the Lord in the matter, and then also offered a concession not given to those who were equally yoked to another believer who had left their marriage for whatever frivolous reason.Supporting EvidenceFirstly lets look at the actual passages
"And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. (1Co 7:10-11 KJV)
vs
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. (1Co 7:12- * KJV)
1.0"Remain Unmarried or reconcile” "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord,It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or brain surgeon or even a biblical scholar to look at that passage as a whole to see that Paul is speaking to two groups there. The first being those where obviously both the husband and the wife are both listening since Paul addresses both of them therein.This idea is made absolute by Pauls making a clear distinction in his next words in saying “BUT TO THE REST SPEAK I, NOT THE LORD” where he shows clearly that he is now speaking to ‘the rest’ of married couples who do not fall into whatever category as the first group fell. These are defined as being those who are married to someone who ‘believeth not’ which we understand as as ‘unequally yoked’ marriage.Notice that Paul makes it very clear that to these who ARENT married to someone who ‘believeth not’ that he isnt speaking, but the Lord is giving commandment to these.Easy enough concept to see, to understand and to accept for those reading and being honest enough to let the words say what they simply state. To these who arent married to someone who ‘believed not’, these are married to someone who instead is a believer. They cannot be anything else or otherwise Pauls words “BUT TO THE REST” when he speaks to the rest who are married make no logical sense whatsoever.These in verses 7:10-11 MUST be those who are NOT married to someone who ‘believeth not’ but MUST be to those marriages where the person being spoken to is married to a believer. Being honest with ourselves, we accept the targets of these words to be those marriages where both persons are a believer...ie ‘equally yoked’.To these, Paul shows that the Lord has given commandment if they depart to remain unmarried (ARAMOC/agamos/single/unwed) or reconcile with the man she left”This makes logical sense and harmonizes quite well with Gods whole word and is even completely logical even if we set scripture aside for a moment. These are two people who have compatible beliefs who, for whatever reason, have left their marriage who, as christians, should be quite interested in working together as ALL believers in Christ should be doing in order to be in harmony with one another. BOTH of these persons, as followers of Jesus Christ, having entered a marital covenant and having set it aside for whatever frivolous reasonings, should be willing to work together to reunite what they created together previously and set aside without just cause.The Lord has commanded these two believers to remain unmarried or reconcile this marriage cast away without just cause (as historical evidence of Corinth is quite capable of showing. That area was not exactly morally sound).2.0"not in bondage""But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not,Now we move on ‘to the rest’....to those marriages where Paul is addressing the believer who is married to one who ‘believeth not’.This is the greek for the ‘rest’...
G3062Thayer Definition:1) remaining, the rest1a) the rest of any number or class under consideration1b) with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number1c) the rest of the things that remain
These ‘rest’ are those that remain of the groups under consideration, which are clearly those whoare ‘married’. This ‘rest’ are those who are married to unbelievers, clearly indicating that the groups being spoken to in verses 7:10-11 are those who are believers married to believers...in other words, equally yoked.Since the ‘rest’ are those who are Unequally yoked, logically there is no way that that Paul is speaking to ‘the rest’ in verses 7:10-11 then turning right around and addressing ‘the rest’ again starting in verse 7:12. To ‘the rest’ who are clearly believers unequally yoked to unbelievers Paul has no commandment of the Lord but is clearly speaking his own mind in the matter. Believing that Paul may not be speaking by direct commandment, we still accept that he is speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and thus his words are ‘law’ for these married to an unbelieving spouse.Firstly we notice that Pauls words offer a more conditional tone. “IF a brother has a wife who is pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away”. If this brother is married to an unbelieving wife who wants to live in peace with him, then he should not put her away. This church had asked questions of Paul and based on Pauls response its easy to determine that they must have believed that if they became born again, that somehow they were defiled by being with an unbelieving husband.Paul lets them know in this passage that that isnt the case. The unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the believer (in a physical or spiritual ‘cleaness’ type of manner, not meaning a free ride to heaven without repentance or anything like that). These clearly were under the impression that it might be ok to just walk out of a marriage if they became saved, yet their spouse did not. Paul straightens out this erroneous viewpoint and lets them know that if the the unbeliever is mutually ‘pleased’ along with the believer and wants to remain in the marriage, then they arent to put them away, and may even be key to their spouses salvation.Paul then goes on to give concession not given to the two believers above. First there was no commandment at all from the Lord to these as with the equally yoked marriage, but Paul now tells these that if the unbeliever wishes to depart the marriage that the believer isnt in bondage to this marriage.Instead of repeating other studies here, please see this page for more on this point.Now, these folks will casually leave out that Paul gives instruction to TWO different married groups there and try to apply 1 Cor 7:10-11 to ALL marriages, but this makes Pauls statement of ‘BUT TO THE REST” and everything that follows completely illogical and unable to be harmonized with the whole properly.And the reason they need to pull this deceptive tactic is because they like what the Lord has commanded in verses 7:10-11, but they arent too happy with Pauls concession in 7:12 and after. It completely destroys these false teachings of theirs that Paul offers this idea that the believer might not be forced to remain bound in marriage to an unbeliever in whatever circumstance, and so they force the text to give instruction to a group of people, those unequally yoked, that Paul CLEARLY says he has no word from the Lord to.Thankfully, you readers are quite capable of seeing the wording used for yourself and seeing what is actually presented by Gods whole word....
Simply put, it is not right to divorce. Yes, a person is allowed to divorce if the spouse has been unfaithful as Jesus taught, but then both people ought to stay divorced or be reconciled again unless one or the other dies.In the OT, the Lord divorced Israel, He did not divorce Judah His other wife, but rather she was punished. Being a divorced wife (as much as the Lord hated doing it) and Him the husband left them both separated from each other. It was only proper to marry again if there was a death, in which the Lord died and became the new husband for Israel, and these physical children of Israel became the church. (The same can now be said of Judah in this age of grace if they accept their new husband)So, in a nutshell, once God divorced, He stayed that way until the death of Christ.Likewise, I would say do not divorce, as there is enough of a "marry-go-round" these days. But if things are that intolerable, like a husband slamming a wife around or whatever, then I say it's OK---- just stay single. Probably such a person is better off that way.I thank God I'm with the same woman 22 years now and going strong, kids are now out of HS and going to college. When I studied genealogy of our family, it was amazing how many kids are products of two, three or more marriages that they have no sense of roots any longer. Divorce is tragic for everyone involved.
Tim, your theology is really out there man.
And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. (Zec 11:10-12 KJV)
"And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. (1Co 7:10-11 KJV)
vs
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. (1Co 7:12- * KJV)
1.0"Remain Unmarried or reconcile” "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord,It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or brain surgeon or even a biblical scholar to look at that passage as a whole to see that Paul is speaking to two groups there. The first being those where obviously both the husband and the wife are both listening since Paul addresses both of them therein.This idea is made absolute by Pauls making a clear distinction in his next words in saying “BUT TO THE REST SPEAK I, NOT THE LORD” where he shows clearly that he is now speaking to ‘the rest’ of married couples who do not fall into whatever category as the first group fell. These are defined as being those who are married to someone who ‘believeth not’ which we understand as as ‘unequally yoked’ marriage.Notice that Paul makes it very clear that to these who ARENT married to someone who ‘believeth not’ that he isnt speaking, but the Lord is giving commandment to these.Easy enough concept to see, to understand and to accept for those reading and being honest enough to let the words say what they simply state. To these who arent married to someone who ‘believed not’, these are married to someone who instead is a believer. They cannot be anything else or otherwise Pauls words “BUT TO THE REST” when he speaks to the rest who are married make no logical sense whatsoever.These in verses 7:10-11 MUST be those who are NOT married to someone who ‘believeth not’ but MUST be to those marriages where the person being spoken to is married to a believer. Being honest with ourselves, we accept the targets of these words to be those marriages where both persons are a believer...ie ‘equally yoked’.To these, Paul shows that the Lord has given commandment if they depart to remain unmarried (ARAMOC/agamos/single/unwed) or reconcile with the man she left”This makes logical sense and harmonizes quite well with Gods whole word and is even completely logical even if we set scripture aside for a moment. These are two people who have compatible beliefs who, for whatever reason, have left their marriage who, as christians, should be quite interested in working together as ALL believers in Christ should be doing in order to be in harmony with one another. BOTH of these persons, as followers of Jesus Christ, having entered a marital covenant and having set it aside for whatever frivolous reasonings, should be willing to work together to reunite what they created together previously and set aside without just cause.The Lord has commanded these two believers to remain unmarried or reconcile this marriage cast away without just cause (as historical evidence of Corinth is quite capable of showing. That area was not exactly morally sound).2.0"not in bondage""But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not,Now we move on ‘to the rest’....to those marriages where Paul is addressing the believer who is married to one who ‘believeth not’.This is the greek for the ‘rest’...
G3062Thayer Definition:1) remaining, the rest1a) the rest of any number or class under consideration1b) with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number1c) the rest of the things that remain
These ‘rest’ are those that remain of the groups under consideration, which are clearly those whoare ‘married’. This ‘rest’ are those who are married to unbelievers, clearly indicating that the groups being spoken to in verses 7:10-11 are those who are believers married to believers...in other words, equally yoked.Since the ‘rest’ are those who are Unequally yoked, logically there is no way that that Paul is speaking to ‘the rest’ in verses 7:10-11 then turning right around and addressing ‘the rest’ again starting in verse 7:12. To ‘the rest’ who are clearly believers unequally yoked to unbelievers Paul has no commandment of the Lord but is clearly speaking his own mind in the matter. Believing that Paul may not be speaking by direct commandment, we still accept that he is speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and thus his words are ‘law’ for these married to an unbelieving spouse.Firstly we notice that Pauls words offer a more conditional tone. “IF a brother has a wife who is pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away”. If this brother is married to an unbelieving wife who wants to live in peace with him, then he should not put her away. This church had asked questions of Paul and based on Pauls response its easy to determine that they must have believed that if they became born again, that somehow they were defiled by being with an unbelieving husband.Paul lets them know in this passage that that isnt the case. The unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the believer (in a physical or spiritual ‘cleaness’ type of manner, not meaning a free ride to heaven without repentance or anything like that). These clearly were under the impression that it might be ok to just walk out of a marriage if they became saved, yet their spouse did not. Paul straightens out this erroneous viewpoint and lets them know that if the the unbeliever is mutually ‘pleased’ along with the believer and wants to remain in the marriage, then they arent to put them away, and may even be key to their spouses salvation.Paul then goes on to give concession not given to the two believers above. First there was no commandment at all from the Lord to these as with the equally yoked marriage, but Paul now tells these that if the unbeliever wishes to depart the marriage that the believer isnt in bondage to this marriage.Instead of repeating other studies here, please see this page for more on this point.Now, these folks will casually leave out that Paul gives instruction to TWO different married groups there and try to apply 1 Cor 7:10-11 to ALL marriages, but this makes Pauls statement of ‘BUT TO THE REST” and everything that follows completely illogical and unable to be harmonized with the whole properly.And the reason they need to pull this deceptive tactic is because they like what the Lord has commanded in verses 7:10-11, but they arent too happy with Pauls concession in 7:12 and after. It completely destroys these false teachings of theirs that Paul offers this idea that the believer might not be forced to remain bound in marriage to an unbeliever in whatever circumstance, and so they force the text to give instruction to a group of people, those unequally yoked, that Paul CLEARLY says he has no word from the Lord to.Thankfully, you readers are quite capable of seeing the wording used for yourself and seeing what is actually presented by Gods whole word....
(Alpha and Omega;51972)
Just to put a non-scriptural spin on things here.....
You're correct that it is unscriptural. I fully understand that when we let emotion take over we find all sorts of pragmatic reasons why we think we know better than God and should allow people an exit from their marriages and an attempt at a redo. However, we see from experience what happens in just a few generations when we start to allow people to divorce for reasons that we feel are reasonable, and then to find a new and hopefully better spouse. Once the door is opened a crack, it is thrown open until the whole institution is destroyed, and more than half of people who profess Christ as Lord disobey His command and live in what He calls adultery, most of the time for trivial reasons. I'll stick with God's wisdom in scripture rather than man's.SealedEternal
Just to put a non-scriptural spin on things here.....
You're correct that it is unscriptural. I fully understand that when we let emotion take over we find all sorts of pragmatic reasons why we think we know better than God and should allow people an exit from their marriages and an attempt at a redo. However, we see from experience what happens in just a few generations when we start to allow people to divorce for reasons that we feel are reasonable, and then to find a new and hopefully better spouse. Once the door is opened a crack, it is thrown open until the whole institution is destroyed, and more than half of people who profess Christ as Lord disobey His command and live in what He calls adultery, most of the time for trivial reasons. I'll stick with God's wisdom in scripture rather than man's.SealedEternal
tim_from_pa
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(FoC;51975)
Tim, your theology is really out there man.
God ENDED that covenant He made with all the peoples as PROVEN in Zechariah 11.This Judah nonsense need not applyIm really happy that your marriage is great, chap, but some of us werent so lucky.
Divorce is completely allowable where there is cause and remarriage is as well.The ONLY command to 'stay single' in the NT is where two believers have left their marriage...sorry but its a fact.Dont feel you have the right to put a yoke of bondage on His children where you have no right or authority to do so.
Zec:11:10: And I took my staff, even Beauty, [this is Israel]and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all [i.e. all the people of Israel] the people.Zec:11:11: And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.Zec:11:12: And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.Zec:11:13: And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.[then AFTER that Christ was betrayed as evidenced by the 30 pieces of silver]Zec:11:14: Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands[this is Judah], that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.After the death of Christ, the brotherhood was broken because the house of Israel would go one way and Judah the other, i.e. Christianity and Judaism.This means Ezekiel 37 is YET future when they are then rejoined.As for the subject of marriage, what do you find wrong with what I said, or would you rather I have a biblical reason (like my pastor)for justifying divorce, and then shacking up with another?
Tim, your theology is really out there man.
And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. (Zec 11:10-12 KJV)
Zec:11:10: And I took my staff, even Beauty, [this is Israel]and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all [i.e. all the people of Israel] the people.Zec:11:11: And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.Zec:11:12: And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.Zec:11:13: And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.[then AFTER that Christ was betrayed as evidenced by the 30 pieces of silver]Zec:11:14: Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands[this is Judah], that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.After the death of Christ, the brotherhood was broken because the house of Israel would go one way and Judah the other, i.e. Christianity and Judaism.This means Ezekiel 37 is YET future when they are then rejoined.As for the subject of marriage, what do you find wrong with what I said, or would you rather I have a biblical reason (like my pastor)for justifying divorce, and then shacking up with another?
(SealedEternal;51976)
You're correct that it is unscriptural. I fully understand that when we let emotion take over we find all sorts of pragmatic reasons why we think we know better than God and should allow people an exit from their marriages and an attempt at a redo. However, we see from experience what happens in just a few generations when we start to allow people to divorce for reasons that we feel are reasonable, and then to find a new and hopefully better spouse. Once the door is opened a crack, it is thrown open until the whole institution is destroyed, and more than half of people who profess Christ as Lord disobey His command and live in what He calls adultery, most of the time for trivial reasons. I'll stick with God's wisdom in scripture rather than man's.SealedEternal
And therein lies the heart of your error.Laziness or something causes you to toss EVERY divorcee into one big basket so you actually are naive enough to believe that ALL of us were just looking for a better spouse and a way out of our marriages.You know, youre one of the few people on the planet that I honestly think I am starting to feel like it might be a good thing if your marriage falls apart.Maybe when YOU are faced with what the some of us have been that smug attitude of yours might get rubbed off.
You're correct that it is unscriptural. I fully understand that when we let emotion take over we find all sorts of pragmatic reasons why we think we know better than God and should allow people an exit from their marriages and an attempt at a redo. However, we see from experience what happens in just a few generations when we start to allow people to divorce for reasons that we feel are reasonable, and then to find a new and hopefully better spouse. Once the door is opened a crack, it is thrown open until the whole institution is destroyed, and more than half of people who profess Christ as Lord disobey His command and live in what He calls adultery, most of the time for trivial reasons. I'll stick with God's wisdom in scripture rather than man's.SealedEternal
And therein lies the heart of your error.Laziness or something causes you to toss EVERY divorcee into one big basket so you actually are naive enough to believe that ALL of us were just looking for a better spouse and a way out of our marriages.You know, youre one of the few people on the planet that I honestly think I am starting to feel like it might be a good thing if your marriage falls apart.Maybe when YOU are faced with what the some of us have been that smug attitude of yours might get rubbed off.
(tim_from_pa;51977)
Zec:11:10: And I took my staff, even Beauty, [this is Israel]and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all [i.e. all the people of Israel] the people.Zec:11:11: And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.Zec:11:12: And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.Zec:11:13: And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.[then AFTER that Christ was betrayed as evidenced by the 30 pieces of silver]Zec:11:14: Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands[this is Judah], that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
WONDERFUL ADDITIONS to the text, Tim
I think Ill stick with the ACTUAL texts as presented by the Hebrew and english without your twists
It says the covenant was broken with ALL the peoples...not just Israel.which makes the rest irrelevant.
As for the subject of marriage, what do you find wrong with what I said, or would you rather I have a biblical reason (like my pastor)for justifying divorce, and then shacking up with another?
Hardly.But if you started beating your wife and cheating on her Id hope youd have the godliness to accept the fact that she IS lawfully permitted to put you away for it and remarriage is simply assumed at that point.
Zec:11:10: And I took my staff, even Beauty, [this is Israel]and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all [i.e. all the people of Israel] the people.Zec:11:11: And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.Zec:11:12: And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.Zec:11:13: And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.[then AFTER that Christ was betrayed as evidenced by the 30 pieces of silver]Zec:11:14: Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands[this is Judah], that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
WONDERFUL ADDITIONS to the text, Tim
As for the subject of marriage, what do you find wrong with what I said, or would you rather I have a biblical reason (like my pastor)for justifying divorce, and then shacking up with another?
Hardly.But if you started beating your wife and cheating on her Id hope youd have the godliness to accept the fact that she IS lawfully permitted to put you away for it and remarriage is simply assumed at that point.
tim_from_pa
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(FoC;51979)
WONDERFUL ADDITIONS to the text, Tim
I think Ill stick with the ACTUAL texts as presented by the Hebrew and english without your twists
It says the covenant was broken with ALL the peoples...not just Israel.which makes the rest irrelevant.
Hardly.But if you started beating your wife and cheating on her Id hope youd have the godliness to accept the fact that she IS lawfully permitted to put you away for it and remarriage is simply assumed at that point.
You just don't understand the difference between Judah and Israel, and that God had two nations of people after they split as prophesied. Can't prove that wrong. It's in black and white over and over again ---house of Israel and house of Judah. The text even says both. So why else are there were beauty and bands? I can't help if you're blinded to that.
WONDERFUL ADDITIONS to the text, Tim
You just don't understand the difference between Judah and Israel, and that God had two nations of people after they split as prophesied. Can't prove that wrong. It's in black and white over and over again ---house of Israel and house of Judah. The text even says both. So why else are there were beauty and bands? I can't help if you're blinded to that.
(FoC;51978)
You know, youre one of the few people on the planet that I honestly think I am starting to feel like it might be a good thing if your marriage falls apart.Maybe when YOU are faced with what the some of us have been that smug attitude of yours might get rubbed off.
Well that's a wonderful Christian attitude to have, but it does illustrate your heart condition. What you fail to understand however is that my marriage won't fail precisely because my wife and I don't even consider divorce as an option. That's the wisdom of God's position that doesn't allow Satan the opportunity to try to convince us that there are greener pastures elsewhere. By viewing marriage as a lifelong commitment without loopholes, it causes us to view one another as a team and to always work together for a common goal, whereas if divorce is an option, it may always be used as a threat to keep division in the relationship. I know you you'd revel in the my fall, but I'm afraid you aren't going to get the pleasure.SealedEternal
You know, youre one of the few people on the planet that I honestly think I am starting to feel like it might be a good thing if your marriage falls apart.Maybe when YOU are faced with what the some of us have been that smug attitude of yours might get rubbed off.
Well that's a wonderful Christian attitude to have, but it does illustrate your heart condition. What you fail to understand however is that my marriage won't fail precisely because my wife and I don't even consider divorce as an option. That's the wisdom of God's position that doesn't allow Satan the opportunity to try to convince us that there are greener pastures elsewhere. By viewing marriage as a lifelong commitment without loopholes, it causes us to view one another as a team and to always work together for a common goal, whereas if divorce is an option, it may always be used as a threat to keep division in the relationship. I know you you'd revel in the my fall, but I'm afraid you aren't going to get the pleasure.SealedEternal
tim_from_pa
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- Jul 11, 2007
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(SealedEternal;51981)
Well that's a wonderful Christian attitude to have, but it does illustrate your heart condition. What you fail to understand however is that my marriage won't fail precisely because my wife and I don't even consider divorce as an option. That's the wisdom of God's position that doesn't allow Satan the opportunity to try to convince us that there are greener pastures elsewhere. By viewing marriage as a lifelong commitment without loopholes, it causes us to view one another as a team and to always work together for a common goal, whereas if divorce is an option, it may always be used as a threat to keep division in the relationship. I know you you'd revel in the my fall, but I'm afraid you aren't going to get the pleasure.SealedEternal
Sealed:Yes, I was taken back when I read that to you as well. My wife and I would not consider divorce as an option, either.I would question those who face divorce, where was God when they married? My God saved me from the wrong woman. That's because I asked Him. Some may be so dead-set however in their ways and are so sure of themselves that they believe they have the right one, and even God is tired of warning them. Then they wonder why it falls apart later.
Well that's a wonderful Christian attitude to have, but it does illustrate your heart condition. What you fail to understand however is that my marriage won't fail precisely because my wife and I don't even consider divorce as an option. That's the wisdom of God's position that doesn't allow Satan the opportunity to try to convince us that there are greener pastures elsewhere. By viewing marriage as a lifelong commitment without loopholes, it causes us to view one another as a team and to always work together for a common goal, whereas if divorce is an option, it may always be used as a threat to keep division in the relationship. I know you you'd revel in the my fall, but I'm afraid you aren't going to get the pleasure.SealedEternal
Sealed:Yes, I was taken back when I read that to you as well. My wife and I would not consider divorce as an option, either.I would question those who face divorce, where was God when they married? My God saved me from the wrong woman. That's because I asked Him. Some may be so dead-set however in their ways and are so sure of themselves that they believe they have the right one, and even God is tired of warning them. Then they wonder why it falls apart later.
(SealedEternal;51981)
Well that's a wonderful Christian attitude to have, but it does illustrate your heart condition.
No, it shows that Im very sick of seeing your hardhearted judgment of your innocent brothers and sisters.Im starting to understand that a soulless attitude such as yours may need to experience the pain before you will ever understand it.
What you fail to understand however is that my marriage won't fail precisely because my wife and I don't even consider divorce as an option.
its all talk, David...ALL talk.Its the SAME naive line most of us told ourselves in our own marriages
By viewing marriage as a lifelong commitment without loopholes,
And there again lies the asinine viewpoint that somehow if someone divorced they WENT IN with the idea there were 'loopholes' to get out.That pathetic ignorance on your part is most of the reason you will never have the HEART to understand this particular area of scripture beyond your own pharisaical legalistism void of the Spirit of God.
I know you you'd revel in the my fall, but I'm afraid you aren't going to get the pleasure.SealedEternal
Never said Id revel in anything.It would bring that haughty ego of yours down a peg so that maybe you MIGHT be able to understand the innocent rather than judging them.In your particular case, I dont see you growing a heart until your own has been ripped out by divorce.
Well that's a wonderful Christian attitude to have, but it does illustrate your heart condition.
No, it shows that Im very sick of seeing your hardhearted judgment of your innocent brothers and sisters.Im starting to understand that a soulless attitude such as yours may need to experience the pain before you will ever understand it.
What you fail to understand however is that my marriage won't fail precisely because my wife and I don't even consider divorce as an option.
its all talk, David...ALL talk.Its the SAME naive line most of us told ourselves in our own marriages
By viewing marriage as a lifelong commitment without loopholes,
And there again lies the asinine viewpoint that somehow if someone divorced they WENT IN with the idea there were 'loopholes' to get out.That pathetic ignorance on your part is most of the reason you will never have the HEART to understand this particular area of scripture beyond your own pharisaical legalistism void of the Spirit of God.
I know you you'd revel in the my fall, but I'm afraid you aren't going to get the pleasure.SealedEternal
Never said Id revel in anything.It would bring that haughty ego of yours down a peg so that maybe you MIGHT be able to understand the innocent rather than judging them.In your particular case, I dont see you growing a heart until your own has been ripped out by divorce.
(tim_from_pa;51980)
You just don't understand the difference between Judah and Israel, and that God had two nations of people after they split as prophesied. Can't prove that wrong. It's in black and white over and over again ---house of Israel and house of Judah. The text even says both. So why else are there were beauty and bands? I can't help if you're blinded to that.
Yes, I understand them fine, Tim.I also understand that the Zechariah passage mentions BOTH Judah and Israel when it speaks about the second staff while talking about ALL the peoples with the first.If THIS is part of your 'theory' then Ill have nothing to do with it and I understand entirely why its been rejected.
You just don't understand the difference between Judah and Israel, and that God had two nations of people after they split as prophesied. Can't prove that wrong. It's in black and white over and over again ---house of Israel and house of Judah. The text even says both. So why else are there were beauty and bands? I can't help if you're blinded to that.
Yes, I understand them fine, Tim.I also understand that the Zechariah passage mentions BOTH Judah and Israel when it speaks about the second staff while talking about ALL the peoples with the first.If THIS is part of your 'theory' then Ill have nothing to do with it and I understand entirely why its been rejected.
tim_from_pa
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It would bring that haughty ego of yours down a peg so that maybe you MIGHT be able to understand the innocent rather than judging them.
Ever hear of the psychological phenomenon called "projection"? That's just a scientific sounding name for the pot calling the kettle.
Ever hear of the psychological phenomenon called "projection"? That's just a scientific sounding name for the pot calling the kettle.
(tim_from_pa;51982)
Sealed:Yes, I was taken back when I read that to you as well.
Then you dont know as much about David as I do.Dont fool yourself into believing that HERE is the only contact he and I have. This has been going on for what...about 2 years now ?Ive concluded that the only way David will grow a heart for the INNOCENT is to have his own torn out by divorce.It may be the only thing that helps him grow a soul.
My wife and I would not consider divorce as an option, either.
and again, its all talk.Most folks who are destroyed by divorce go in with the same view....that divorce isnt going to happen.It typically doesnt even enter the mind in those early years at all.So saying you wouldnt consider a divorce while neither of you is giving grounds to the other is a bit naive and somewhat meaningless.When your wife has sex with your own stepfather on your bed, then come back and lets talk about it. Of course, at that point Ill be here trying to help and encourage you instead of doing what SE will do if you DO feel the need to divorce.
I would question those who face divorce, where was God when they married?
Absolutely not where He ought to have been when I Married before.Precisely why I married. My own foolish belief that people can change.
My God saved me from the wrong woman.
IF that is the case, and it very well could be, then count yourself blessed.And use that to HELP those who have not been so lucky rather than being their judge.
That's because I asked Him. Some may be so dead-set however in their ways and are so sure of themselves that they believe they have the right one, and even God is tired of warning them. Then they wonder why it falls apart later.
You cant even begin to know how true this rings.My divorces were MY fault because in BOTH cases He told me not to marry.There is a lot more detail that I could share that Im sure you could appreciate Tim, but theres no way Id let David get ahold of the wonderful things that God has done for me so he could pervert them.
Sealed:Yes, I was taken back when I read that to you as well.
Then you dont know as much about David as I do.Dont fool yourself into believing that HERE is the only contact he and I have. This has been going on for what...about 2 years now ?Ive concluded that the only way David will grow a heart for the INNOCENT is to have his own torn out by divorce.It may be the only thing that helps him grow a soul.
My wife and I would not consider divorce as an option, either.
and again, its all talk.Most folks who are destroyed by divorce go in with the same view....that divorce isnt going to happen.It typically doesnt even enter the mind in those early years at all.So saying you wouldnt consider a divorce while neither of you is giving grounds to the other is a bit naive and somewhat meaningless.When your wife has sex with your own stepfather on your bed, then come back and lets talk about it. Of course, at that point Ill be here trying to help and encourage you instead of doing what SE will do if you DO feel the need to divorce.
I would question those who face divorce, where was God when they married?
Absolutely not where He ought to have been when I Married before.Precisely why I married. My own foolish belief that people can change.
My God saved me from the wrong woman.
IF that is the case, and it very well could be, then count yourself blessed.And use that to HELP those who have not been so lucky rather than being their judge.
That's because I asked Him. Some may be so dead-set however in their ways and are so sure of themselves that they believe they have the right one, and even God is tired of warning them. Then they wonder why it falls apart later.
You cant even begin to know how true this rings.My divorces were MY fault because in BOTH cases He told me not to marry.There is a lot more detail that I could share that Im sure you could appreciate Tim, but theres no way Id let David get ahold of the wonderful things that God has done for me so he could pervert them.
(tim_from_pa;51987)
Ever hear of the psychological phenomenon called "projection"? That's just a scientific sounding name for the pot calling the kettle.
Tell me then, Tim....what innocent brother or sister have I unjustly 'judged'?Disagreeing with your unscriptural theories isnt judging YOU...so dont even go there
If you mean 'haughty' instead...I can live with that...Ive had far worse said about me over the last few years.
Ever hear of the psychological phenomenon called "projection"? That's just a scientific sounding name for the pot calling the kettle.
Tell me then, Tim....what innocent brother or sister have I unjustly 'judged'?Disagreeing with your unscriptural theories isnt judging YOU...so dont even go there
(tim_from_pa;51980)
You just don't understand the difference between Judah and Israel, and that God had two nations of people after they split as prophesied. Can't prove that wrong. It's in black and white over and over again ---house of Israel and house of Judah. The text even says both. So why else are there were beauty and bands? I can't help if you're blinded to that.
Yes, I understand them fine, Tim.I also understand that the Zechariah passage mentions BOTH Judah and Israel when it speaks about the second staff while talking about ALL the peoples with the first.Gods not that dimwitted to not be able to mention BOTH if He meant them separately in each part there.
If THIS is part of your 'theory' then Ill have nothing to do with it and I understand entirely why its been rejected.
You just don't understand the difference between Judah and Israel, and that God had two nations of people after they split as prophesied. Can't prove that wrong. It's in black and white over and over again ---house of Israel and house of Judah. The text even says both. So why else are there were beauty and bands? I can't help if you're blinded to that.
Yes, I understand them fine, Tim.I also understand that the Zechariah passage mentions BOTH Judah and Israel when it speaks about the second staff while talking about ALL the peoples with the first.
And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zec 11:10-14 KJV)
Richard_oti
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- Mar 17, 2008
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(Alpha and Omega;51911)
Scriptural proofs please for the following
As you have already received a multitude to review on both sides of the fence, I will simply make a have statements.(Alpha and Omega)
can we divorce?
Yes. However as you have heard it said:Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.Provision was made in the Law for divorce. However, I will not go into those currently.There are many factors to consider regarding divorce and since no two cases are alike it is not possible IMO to make a blanket statement.Remember, there are many forms of "adultery", for it is physical, mental, spiritual. It can take on and come in many forms.(Alpha and Omega)
can we re-marry if divorced?
Again, there are many factors to consider regarding remarriage and since no two cases are alike it is not possible IMO to make a blanket statement. However, there is one place in the Torah [instruction/law] in which remarriage is spoken of.(Alpha and Omega)
can we marry whom we like? Just read a verse (I cannot recall which one) where it says that an Israelite may not marry a non-Israelite.
In Deuteronomy 21:10-13, the Israelites were allowed to take wives from amoung other goyim. So yes, an Israelite was allowed to take wives from outside of Israel. They were not allowed to take wives from certain goyim as in Deuteronomy 7:1-4(Alpha and Omega)
Once married can we practice birth control? for example condoms, excluding of course abortion if one sees abortion as birth control and not murder.
For myself, I am not a 'believer' in birth control. For IMO that is in God's control. If it is His will, no birth control will prevail. However, that is something you will need to come to terms with yourself for while I am not a 'believer' in such, neither am I against it.FWIW,Richard
Scriptural proofs please for the following
As you have already received a multitude to review on both sides of the fence, I will simply make a have statements.(Alpha and Omega)
can we divorce?
Yes. However as you have heard it said:Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.Provision was made in the Law for divorce. However, I will not go into those currently.There are many factors to consider regarding divorce and since no two cases are alike it is not possible IMO to make a blanket statement.Remember, there are many forms of "adultery", for it is physical, mental, spiritual. It can take on and come in many forms.(Alpha and Omega)
can we re-marry if divorced?
Again, there are many factors to consider regarding remarriage and since no two cases are alike it is not possible IMO to make a blanket statement. However, there is one place in the Torah [instruction/law] in which remarriage is spoken of.(Alpha and Omega)
can we marry whom we like? Just read a verse (I cannot recall which one) where it says that an Israelite may not marry a non-Israelite.
In Deuteronomy 21:10-13, the Israelites were allowed to take wives from amoung other goyim. So yes, an Israelite was allowed to take wives from outside of Israel. They were not allowed to take wives from certain goyim as in Deuteronomy 7:1-4(Alpha and Omega)
Once married can we practice birth control? for example condoms, excluding of course abortion if one sees abortion as birth control and not murder.
For myself, I am not a 'believer' in birth control. For IMO that is in God's control. If it is His will, no birth control will prevail. However, that is something you will need to come to terms with yourself for while I am not a 'believer' in such, neither am I against it.FWIW,Richard
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