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Featured Mary, Queen of Heaven

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Mungo, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Mary as Queen of Heaven seems to have been disparaged a lot recently but I don't think there has been a detailed explanation of the Catholic position on this topic. So here goes.

    Catholic Teaching
    There is no formal dogma that Mary is Queen of Heaven but Many Popes have used this tile of Mary, including Pope Pius XII who wrote an Encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam in which he proclaimed a feast day in honour of Mary as Queen of Heaven.

    Introduction
    “What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 487)

    The Davidic King
    Let us therefore start with Jesus.

    God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of king’s mother.

    #1 In a monarchical system a woman may have the title Queen for one of three reasons.
    We can see examples of this in both the recent history in the UK and in the Bible. I will give examples from the Bible.

    1. The woman is a ruler in her own right. For example the Queen of Sheba (see 1Kg 10)

    2. The woman is the wife of the reigning king. In the book of Esther, King Ahasuerus had many concubines, but gave one of them the honour of being designated Queen, first Vashti, but then Esther.

    3. The woman is the mother of the reigning king. In the kingdom of David the king might have multiple wives, so the practice was to give the title Queen Mother to the mother of the king. This was instituted by Solomon the son of David.

    We see this first established by Solomon when he greets Bathsheba who comes to ask a favour. He pays her homage and sits her on a throne at his right hand (a position of honour) (1Kg 2:19)

    After Solomon the kingdom splits into the Northern kingdom (Israel) and the Southern kingdom (Judah). After this there were 20 kings in Israel before the deportation to Assyria. For none of these is the mother of the king mentioned.

    There were 19 kings in Judah after Solomon before they were deported to Babylon. In 17 of these the king’s mother is given, usually after introducing the king, with the words “his mother’s name was ……”. This in itself shows that the king’s mother was a significant figure.

    The mother of the king was referred to as the queen mother (1Kg15:13 (& 2Chr 15:16), 2Kg 10:13, Jer 13:18, Jer 29:2.). Note the Hebrew is gebirah – queen. The KJV just says queen but more modern translations say queen mother as she is the mother of the king.

    #2 This role of queen mother was an established role in the kingdom.
    “He also removed Maacah his mother from being queen mother because she had an abominable image made for Asherah” (1Kg 15:13)

    #3 The queen mother sat on a throne at the right of her son
    “So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat [throne] brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.”(1Kg 2:19)

    #4 The queen mother had authority.
    Firstly she sat on the right of the king which is the position of authority.

    Then there is one particularly interesting woman Athalia, who was the mother of Ahazier the sixth king of Judah. After her son was killed, she killed all the royal family (except one baby who was hidden from her) and assumed power in her own right. She ruled as Queen for six years until she was killed and her grandson Joash installed as king at the age of seven. She would not have been able to do that if she was not in a recognised position of authority to start with.

    We can also see the important position of the queen mother in Jeremiah 13:18-20
    “Say to the king and the queen mother: ‘Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head. The cities of the Negeb are shut up, with none to open them; all Judah is taken into exile, wholly taken into exile. "Lift up your eyes and see those who come from the north. Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?’”

    Three points to note here.
    Firstly Jeremiah is told to address both the king and queen mother. They are both to be punished by God.

    Secondly both the king and queen mother are to come down from their thrones and to lose their crowns. They are both royalty in the kingdom.

    Thirdly God says to them: “Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?
    They are both responsible for the flock, the sheep – i.e. the people that God entrusted to them. God had given the queen mother responsibilities for the people, not just the king. That does not mean that the queen mother was equal in authority to the king. The authority she had was derived from and under the king. She was still subject to him.

    #5 Jesus is the true Davidic king with an eternal kingdom. That kingdom is based in Heaven.
    Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom does not belong to this world.’” (Jn 18:36)

    “Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness…….. He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, “King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Rev 19:11-16)

    #6 Mary is the mother of Jesus As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary has the right to the title Queen of Heaven.
    As such she has some responsibility for the flock.

    We also read in Revelation:
    "A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." (Rev 12:1).

    This can taken to be a reference to Mary – “and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5), which is Jesus. She has on her head a crown – as do queens.

    Psalm 45
    Psalm 45 is a prophecy of the Messiah’s reign and is addressed to the king and line 9 says: at you right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. We have seen that in the Davidic kingdom the queen sits, or stands, at the king’s right hand (1Kg 2:19).

    [Also in Rev 21:1 the woman is clothed with the sun (i.e golden coloured) just as the queen here is clothed in gold of Ophir.]

    [There is another interesting line a little later, verse 17:
    I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations; therefore the peoples will praise you for ever and ever.


    Compare that to Lk 1:48 when Mary said: For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.]

    Elizabeth
    Finally there is a hint of Mary being the gebirah in Lk 1:43 when Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaims “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth has recognised that the child in Mary’s womb is God, the promised Messiah, the Son of David and that Mary is therefore the gebirah. She is astonished that such an important person should come to her.
     
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  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi @Mungo , thank you for putting this all together! I always appreciate being able to understand better people's reasonings.

    Much love!
     
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  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    If you read through the book of Jeremiah, I believe you will come across multiple occasions wherein the Israelites burned incense to the queen of heaven and this was condemned by the LORD.
     
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  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Also made small cakes for her.
     
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  5. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Mary as Queen of Heaven has nothing to do with the pagan cult of the queen of heaven condemned in Jeremiah but relates to her position of the mother of Jesus who is the King of Heaven (and sits on the throne of David) as explained in the OP.

    Giving honour to the true Queen of Heaven is not wrong because some pagans 3,000 years ago gave honour to a false queen of heaven, just as worshipping the one true God is not wrong because some pagans 3,000 years ago worshipped false gods.
     
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  6. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Home
    - Answers

    The Bible about Mary

    Question I would like to know why the Bible doesn't tell much about virgin Mary.

    Answer These are the main references to Mary in the New Testament:
    1. Annunciation, visit to Elizabeth, birth and early life of Jesus - Matthew 1,2; Luke 1,2
    2. Woman, what have I to do with thee? - John 2:1-11
    3. Is not his mother called Mary? - Matthew 13:54-58; Mark 6:1-6; Luke 4:16-31
    4. Who is my mother? - Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21
    5. Woman, behold thy son! - John 19:26,27
    6. With the early disciples - Acts 1:14
    7. Made of a woman - Galatians 4:4
    It is true, the Bible does not say much about Mary. However, the Bible tells us enough about her that we need to know. She was the virgin mother of our Lord, whom God chose by His grace to fulfill this special role in the plan of redemption. And for the unique privilege she is called blessed by all Christians and in all ages.

    The Roman Catholic doctrines about Mary, namely, the perpetual virginity, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption to heaven, and the titles Queen of Heaven, mediatrix, our mother, our life, our hope and others are conspicuously absent from the Bible.

    Why so? Simply because the Bible is a book about another person, who was chosen and appointed by God to be the mediator and savior of the world. That person is Jesus Christ.

    The Lord Jesus said: “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39). The Bible is the Book about the Lord Jesus Christ and we should be wholeheartedly devoted to Him.

    The Bible about Mary
     
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  7. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    As usual - no attempt to address the OP.
    Just a cut and paste from an anti-Catholic web site.

    Or perhaps you entirely agree with the OP!
    Do you?
    If not perhaps you could address it instead of diverting off into something else
     
  8. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    The article addresses the topic just fine. You can either believe the truth found in Scripture or else you can believe Roman Catholic dogma. Prior to my conversion several years ago, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic Church so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.
     
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  9. Devin Wintch

    Devin Wintch Well-Known Member

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    Interesting cause I had a visitation by Holy Spirits which came with the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) in which I was shown a Heavenly Mother. So you're references are of great interest to me. Thanks. Not that I should burn incense to her.
     
  10. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    The article makes no attempt to address the topic.

    There is no contradiction between the two.

    Can you show me how the OP is false?

    That's very sad that you left the Catholic Church. But perhaps not surprising if you have immersed yourself in sites like the one you quoted from. I have come across it before. It presents a subtly distorted version of Catholic teaching and then proceeds to argue against that.
     
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  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    I ask one thing, and it will be an end to all this nonesense. is Mary the biological Mother of the Lord Jesus or just the surrogate mother birth mother of the BODY that the Lord Jesus dwelt in.

    a. Mary is not the biological Mother of the Lord Jesus. meaning she have no claim as a Queen. now that should end that right there.

    b. to be sure that she was not biologically connected to the Lord Jesus, for the angel said this also, which many miss. Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, (thing, here means flesh), which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". notice shall be called, not named, but called Son of God, (flesh is born). now what do, "overshadow", means? lets have a look see,
    it's the Greek word G1982 ἐπισκιάζω episkiazo (ep-ee-skee-ad'-zo) v.
    1. to cast a shade upon
    2. (by analogy) to envelop in a haze of brilliancy
    3. (figuratively) to invest with preternatural influence

    ok, what do, "preternatural influence", means? It means, "out of the ordinary course of nature; exceptional or abnormal". the meaning here, is not in the natural way of conception between a man and a women. BINGO, or better known as "Checkmate".
    Mary was not our Lord Jesus birth mother biologically, because our Lord don't have a mommy, no matter how dearest she is... nor do he have a daddy. he is without mother and without father. and as a matter of fact, he's the one whom you so reckless call the Father who actually sits on David throne, lets see,

    c. JESUS is God the "FATHER", who sits on David Throne. scripture, Psalms 132:11 "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

    BINGO, the LORD, all caps the Father, whom many ignorantly don't know, is the one who will sit on David throne, read Psalms 132:11 above again. YES, JESUS is the LORD of the OT, without flesh, without bone, and without blood. he, JESUS is God who is LORD. BINGO.

    so this should put an end to this false notion that Mary is the Lord Jesus birth Mother, biologically. no, she's only a surrogate mother birth mother to the flesh that the Lord Jesus came in.

    so all that nonesense is out the door, and if one still believe in this nonesense that Mary is Jesus mother biologically, then you're just as Pagan as the Pagan themselves.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  12. Base12

    Base12 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    "The Catholic faith states, as a dogma, that Mary was assumed into heaven and is with Jesus Christ, her divine son. Mary should be called Queen..."

    Queen of Heaven - Wikipedia
     
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  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    glad you see you on the board, missed you for a while.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
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  14. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    There are only four Marian dogmas, and Queen of Heaven is not one of them. It is a title, as Wikipedia says, one of many. It may have been expressed formally by Pope Pius XII but that does not make it a dogma.
     
  15. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    so you're saying that Pope Pius XII don't know what he was talking about?

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  16. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Yes!

    And Jesus has perfect filial love for His mother.

    You might want to consider how protective most men are of their mothers, and what Jesus may think of those that denigrate His...

    Peace!
     
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  17. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    are you saying, "YES" that Mary is the Lord Jesus biological Mother? yes or no.

    hold that answer for a few I'll be away from the computer a few... ok, then we can discuss.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  18. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    1. The Greek word has three different meaning. On what basis do you choose the third one?

    2. Even with the third one you do not prove your case. Yes Mary's conception was not in the natural way of conception between a man and a woman. But that does not mean that Jesus was not the biological child of Mary.

    3. Heb 2:17 says "Therefore he [Jesus] had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people."
    If Jesus was not a biological child of Mary then hw would not be a member of the human race. He would not be "like his brethren in every respect".

    Your claim fails to be proved and therefore the rest of your post fails also.
     
  19. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    No I didn't say that at all.
     
  20. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    YES!

    Son of David, have mercy on us!
     
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