Message in Tongues

[Lively Stone]

Is singing in tongues in scripture?

1 Corinthians 14:15
Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand.

 

[biggandyy]

Let's look at the entire context:

[sup]13[/sup] For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. [sup]14[/sup] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. [sup]15[/sup] So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. [sup]16[/sup] Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[sup][d][/sup] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? [sup]17[/sup] You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

Now, let's hear what someone better informed than I speak on those verses, Matthew Henry:

I. Directs them how they should sing and pray in public (1 Cor. 14:15): What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also. I will sing with the spirit, etc. He does not forbid their praying or singing under a divine afflatus, or when they were inspired for this purpose, or had such a spiritual gift communicated to them; but he would have them perform both so as to be understood by others, that others might join with them. Note, Public worship should be performed so as to be understood.
II. He enforces the argument with several reasons.
1. That otherwise the unlearned could not say Amen to their prayers or thanksgivings, could not join in the worship, for they did not understand it, 1 Cor. 14:16. He who fills up or occupies the place of the unlearned, that is, as the ancients interpret it, the body of the people, who, in most Christian assemblies, are illiterate; how should they say Amen to prayers in an unknown tongue? How should they declare their consent and concurrence? This is saying Amen, So be it. God grant the thing we have requested; or, We join in the confession that has been made of sin, and in the acknowledgment that has been made of divine mercies and favours. This is the import of saying Amen. All should say Amen inwardly; and it is not improper to testify this inward concurrence in public prayers and devotions, by an audible Amen. The ancient Christians said Amen aloud. Vide Just. Mart. apol. 2. propè fin. Now, how should the people say Amen to what they did not understand? Note, There can be no concurrence in those prayers that are not understood. The intention of public devotions is therefore entirely destroyed if they are performed in an unknown tongue. He who performs may pray well, and give thanks well, but not in that time and place, because others are not, cannot be, edified (1 Cor. 14:17) by what they understand not.

Once again, tongues is abused by the Corinthians and I would hazzard a guess Paul would have the same exact advice for the church today abusing that so called gift the same exact way the Corinthians were.

BTW: it is really stretching the context to include "singing in tongues" as a gift or even a valid form of worship.

 

[Lively Stone]

In a good church the gifts are not being abused, and leadership takes their job seriously in ensuring that. As far a singing in tongues, I experience it, and I witness it regularly. God loves it, so there's nothing to be said against it. sometimes one needs to be quiet about their negativity concerning the ways in which God calls us to worship.

If it was OK for the early church, it is OK for us, and God is blessed and glorified. Who is it that seeks to rob God of worship?


.

 

[biggandyy]

Rather than apologize for the faith you want the naysayer to simply be silent? heh heh heh...

You claim to speak on behalf of the Lord and then claim those who want a purer form of worship as robbing God.

Let me ask others watching the thread this:

Look at Christ's life. Recorded are His sermons, miracles, rebukes, prayers, disputes, even His death. Yet the Bible's record of Christ singing a hymn, only once, and it goes like this: "And when they had sung a hymn..." (Matthew 26:30). If Christ had considered singing important doesn't it stand to reason there would be a greater mention of it than the above.

In fact, we are told He will give us a New Song in heaven. Why bother with all these old ones when the important one is to come?

Also, did Christ speak in tongues? No. Could it have been simply to strengthen the early church and help it spread the Gift of Tongues was given? Now that the Church (physical and invisible) is strong and can survive on it's own do we really want to cling to the crutch of tongues like infants clining to a security blanket?

 

[Lively Stone]

Criticizing one of the gifts of the Spirit is a serious sin, and it is for the sake of the one being negative that I say it is best to be quiet, lest the Lord chasten you.

All the gifts of the Spirit are useful for the Church today, as it is still being built by the Lord. there is nothing in scripture that tells us when the gifts would be stopped except the time when the perfect chall come, and that is when Jesus returns for her. We will have no need for the gifts when we see Him face to face.

The church is not mature and when the gifts are being utilized, it is indeed strong. There are just as much spiritual opposition against it as ever...and even more so when we have people with imperfect understanding telling others that the gifts God so graciously provides for His children have ceased.

 

[biggandyy]

I am questioning those who believe they are acting in the Spirit of God when I sincerely believe they are acting upon a different spirit not of God. In either case, I am not in danger from the so called "unpardonable sin" since all my sins have been pardoned already. I can not possibly blaspheme the Spirit for I have the Spirit in me and it is that same Spirit calling me to question those whom I believe are in serious error.

 

[Lively Stone]

I am questioning those who believe they are acting in the Spirit of God when I sincerely believe they are acting upon a different spirit not of God. In either case, I am not in danger from the so called "unpardonable sin" since all my sins have been pardoned already. I can not possibly blaspheme the Spirit for I have the Spirit in me and it is that same Spirit calling me to question those whom I believe are in serious error.

You can grieve Him by speaking out of the lack of knowledge about this.

 

[biggandyy]

So since I disagree I am obviously less knowledgable than you? That is the definition of arrogance (as I stated in another thread). That's two for two on your side... rather than educate you both have chosen arrogance.

No one has convinced me more that I am correct than the two of you "defenders" of speaking in tongues. Again, let me ask, if speaking and singing in tongues is so important, why did not Christ emphasize those? Or even participate.

Paul was correcting, not commending. Everywhere I see tongues being used in scripture by anyone other than the Apostles and Disciples error is nipping at the heels of those participating.

 

[Lively Stone]

So since I disagree I am obviously less knowledgable than you? That is the definition of arrogance (as I stated in another thread). That's two for two on your side... rather than educate you both have chosen arrogance.

It isn't arrogance to state a fact. The gift has never ceased, and people are operating in every gift there is every day. What is knowledgeable about denial?

No one has convinced me more that I am correct than the two of you "defenders" of speaking in tongues. Again, let me ask, if speaking and singing in tongues is so important, why did not Christ emphasize those? Or even participate.

No, you are not convinced. You are digging your heels in.

Christ didn't emphasixe any particular spiritual gift. He mentioned healing, speaking in tongues and many wonders that we would perform in His name. Then He sent Holy Spirit who gives every gift to the Church that Paul describes.

Paul was correcting, not commending. Everywhere I see tongues being used in scripture by anyone other than the Apostles and Disciples error is nipping at the heels of those participating.

That is a false understanding. Yes, everyone agrees that Paul was correcting the Corinthian church, and all churches awere corrected by that message---and so are we. He also instructed in the proper use of tongues, and urged us to follow after his pattern. When we submit our voices fully to Holy Spirit, there is no room for error.

 

[biggandyy]

 

[lawrance]

-- That of course would be the position of a person willfully ignoring what the Bible says on the subject.

i don't think so, as i think it has to do with the interpretation of it and i think a lot of peoples perception on it is just a load of bull. and just a work of Satan.
I am not rejecting anything biblical at all.
I have had people talking in a group who say things and one or some know what is being said and others don't comprehend at all and it's all in english. not gibberish nonsense.

 

[IanLC]

The woman is preaching the gospel. Why is it a problem if we have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire as written in the Holy writ? And we speak in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives us utterance. We are not harming anyone we are exalting Jesus!

 

[biggandyy]

In preparing for this disputation I came across a very succinct and easy to read pre-prepared disputation and apology for Cessationism (the entire point of the discussion). I will reprint it here for your thoughtful consideration. The direct link appears below:

Question: "Is cessationism biblical?"

Answer: Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence for cessationism. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

>> LINK <<

 

[rockytopva]

I was brought up in the military and born in North Carolina. I spent my High School years in Michigan in which I attended a GARBC registered Baptist church. That was the most deadest place on the planet. I use to look out on the frigid Michigan tundra while service was going on amazed on how a place could be so dead and lifeless.

I had a dream one time that I went to a service in which everybody was praising the Lord and the place was very much warm and alive... And then I woke up... Only in your dreams Rocky... Only in your dreams!

 

[Lively Stone]

Are there spirtual gifts today or have they ceased?


Excellent article here:

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct77.htm

 

[biggandyy]

Interesting read, but it addresses the position of Total Cessationism, which is a position, I agree, the Bible does not support. But the cessation of tongues, healing, and prophesy are addressed in scripture (Partial Cessationism), and that is where I dispute on the issue.

Additionally, Total Cessationists also hold to the everlasting cessation of all gifts when scripture teaches the gifts will be returned to at least the two Prophets of Revelation if not the entire Body of Christ.

 

[Lively Stone]

There is only a mention of cessation in scripture insofar as that they will end when the perfect---Jesus---comes. Those who hold to another view about 'perfect' are spiritually misapprehending scripture, and following after certain traditions of teaching of fallible men.


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[biggandyy]

I make the same claim against your position, merely the traditions of men in clinging to what was lost but will one day be returned.

 

[Lively Stone]

Not one thing has been lost. God is bigger than some make Him out to be. He has made Holy Spirit's power available to us in many ways, and that includes all the gifts mentioned in scripture, all to be used to build the Church of Jesus Christ! He's not finished yet.

 

[biggandyy]

A lot of this hangs on the definition of what a Spiritual Gift IS. I'll give you my working definition:

A true Spiritual Gift (unique for the individual member of the Body of Christ) is a special gift to be used in edifying, uplifting, encouraging, enhancing, and furthering the Body of Christ. That special gift is one that can be consciously exercized at the sole discression of the recipient of that special gift.

That is to say, if a person must wait for the Holy Spirit to come on them in order to begin praying or singing in a different tongue then it is, by definition, NOT a spiritual gift, but a monergistic work of the Holy Spirit upon that person. That person is not exercizing a gift of their own free will but a subserviant vessel being used by the Holy Spirit.

Spiritual Gifts oft times are mundane, like Organization, or Fellowship, yet our greedy spirit yearns for the glamor and glitz of the gifts denied us at this present age. Just like a child wanting to use the scissors before they are ready. When they get hold of them everything looks like it needs cutting and many times they end up cutting themselves.

When we are ready for the sharpness of the Miracle Gifts the Lord will return them.