MIRACLES

[JesusIsFaithful]

That thorn is his flesh I would think as to it's meaning.

He did not know how it was so, that it was beyond him.

The Original Sin buffets him in the flesh I would think.

You had posted that Paul did not know how it was so and that it was beyond him.

Great people ? people of extinction among others may talk of themselves in the third person only to remove themselves apart from their greatness, so as to humble themselves before others.
Hercule Poirot the great detective does this and a Premier or Statesman etc may refer to his time in office as in this way, because that is separated from what he is at present and it's not boasting at all, but some may think it is. it just distinguishes this from that like so.

So the point Paul is making is a Spiritual comprehension here with his flesh and one who does not understand spiritual things can not pick up on the reality of what he is truly saying, because they do not have the Holy Spirit to give guidance in such matters.

This line of reasoning would lead someone to conclude that Paul did not have the Holy Spirit to give guidance in such matters when that thorn in the flesh was beyond him, seeing how he still did not know.

So you see, Belafonte she speaks.

Nice to meet you, sister, but I have to disagree with you on this point. Paul was really referring to the apostle John from which his experience was recorded in the Book of Revelations as led by the Holy Spirit in him.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

how is it that your dreams seem so real? Even after you have become lucid in them?
Paul was talking about himself, almost surely. Maybe even giving a primer on how to relate a concept without appearing to be boasting, by going into 3rd person, only not being as obvious about it as he was there, and wadr he was being pretty obvious?

The thorn in his flesh i guess we can agree could have been figurative even, some kinda-jealous type constantly giving him grief even, just like we use the term today?

Well if Paul was talking about himself in the third person, it is not the same person as he, when he went to a lot of trouble denigrating himself by that said thorn in the flesh.

And it would be considered a false witness if he was talking to himself especially in a third person for how he gloried in that person that was caught up to the third heaven.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

So when any one speaks of himself in seeking glory for himself, it is considered unrighteousness and a false witness. To be a true witness is to speak of another in seeking the glory of the other.

Hence Paul debasing himself was not one where he was seeking glory for himself by that thorn in the flesh as the Lord permitted so that others would not think of him higher than they ought to think by all those epistles to the N.T. churches from which his revelations and edification has been shared.

 

[bbyrd009]

So when any one speaks of himself in seeking glory for himself, it is considered unrighteousness and a false witness. To be a true witness is to speak of another in seeking the glory of the other.

it strikes me that relating a personal testimony in the third person--that might otherwise be considered bragging--would do just that!

 

[bbyrd009]

Hence Paul debasing himself was not one where he was seeking glory for himself by that thorn in the flesh as the Lord permitted so that others would not think of him higher than they ought to think by all those epistles to the N.T. churches from which his revelations and edification has been shared.

hmm, there's like one too many concepts packed in there for me to really follow you, but imo Paul's thorn might even have been that he recognized that he was garnering unwanted glorification by pre-Catholic types (no-offense, i mean to speak to The Enshrining effect), and needed to speak in the third person to abate this? Which is maybe what you just said too

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

it strikes me that relating a personal testimony in the third person--that might otherwise be considered bragging--would do just that!

But if the hearers or readers sees that bragging even in the third person, it is still a false witness.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

hmm, there's like one too many concepts packed in there for me to really follow you, but imo Paul's thorn might even have been that he recognized that he was garnering unwanted glorification by pre-Catholic types (no-offense, i mean to speak to The Enshrining effect), and needed to speak in the third person to abate this? Which is maybe what you just said too

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Since Paul could not tell if that man having those visions in how he was caught up to the third heaven, then he cannot be talking about himself.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

Never heard any one talking about himself in a third person refer to himself as having known the man as in a past tense.

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Not lawful for man to utter? Like maybe the Book of Revelations where there is a warning about adding or taking away any words from that Book of Revelation? Sure sounds like he is talking about the apostle John and John was taken up to the third Heaven for him to be writing what he had seen there.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Can't very well be glorying in yourself if it is another person and then defer to glorying in yourself in your own infirmities. That is assigning glory to the other person which Paul was glorying in and yet in any glorying in himself, he did so by debasing himself by his infirmities. That's two different kinds of glorying going on here as being given by Paul. One exaltation has to be given to another for Paul's witness to be true to even be written in this epistle to be considered righteousness scripture while the other glory was self debasement due to a thorn in the flesh. Not the same thing and hardly talking about the same person.

 

[bbyrd009]

But if the hearers or readers sees that bragging even in the third person, it is still a false witness.

ergo one should not be as baldly obvious as Paul here, who is needing to be obvious to teach a lesson on the concept, not actually trying to relate his experience in the third heaven, as we can read?

 

[bbyrd009]

Not lawful for man to utter? Like maybe the Book of Revelations where there is a warning about adding or taking away any words from that Book of Revelation?

Since Paul could not tell if that man having those visions in how he was caught up to the third heaven, then he cannot be talking about himself.

ah i guess you have some knowledge of Paul that i do not, so i will bow out here

 

[bbyrd009]

but i gotta say the theory does neatly resolve what Paul's thorn was, too

 

[bbyrd009]

if Paul was not instructing on 3rd person use, then what is the point of the passage?
to introduce a riddle about a thorn?
a vision is mentioned, but no details are related. Or rather the passage starts "visions" but then even this is made more ambiguous, not less; "whether in the body or out of it, i don't know."

 

[bbyrd009]

6For if I want to boast, I will not be a fool, because I will be telling the truth. But I will spare you, so that no one can credit me with something beyond what he sees in me or hears from me,

iow a restatement of the little scenario he just went through,, and then he tells us precisely what the thorn is;

7especially because of the extraordinary revelations. Therefore, so that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to torment me so I would not exalt myself.

a flowery way of saying that some repeating meme came into his life that reminded him not to speak in the first person sometimes, lest he start getting worshipped. The thorn was the obsequious adoration he started getting imo. He was being put on a pedestal iow
imo