Missing from bible

[StanJ]

WW,

That's not how Jesus saw it, as he made clear in John 14:12 (ESV): 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father'.

What works did Jesus do? His works included miracles, as recorded in the Gospels. Jesus' teaching is that 'whoever believes' in him shall do the works he did and even greater works than these. Why? He was returning to the Father and would no longer be available to do it through an earthly ministry. To whom did he give that ministry? He gave to those who believe in him. That includes you, me, and millions of others throughout the last 2000 years.

I'm not inventing this. I'm following what Jesus stated.

Oz

If we are going to get picky about vernacular, then I guess I can only say that Jesus did not say that we would do everything he did. The fact is that the body of Christ has done much more than Jesus ever did. For sure evangelizing was one of the main things that Jesus did and we as a body on the whole have done that as well. I agree with WW, that not all are called to do the same thing, as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 12:12-31.

 

[iakov]

]It's better to use the format the way it is intended to be used here. If you want to quote the entire post then you can use the quote button or if you want to quote sections of it use the multi quote button. The following link will give you some info on how to use BB code.


Yes and that is metaphorical language to identify in actuality what happens spiritually. Unless of course you know of a way to detect what happens without using metaphorical language?


I didn't use the term Christian mysticism, those are your words and in my opinion are designed to deflect from the actual issue. I didn't mysticism and in its proper context and connotations it is not something that's needed in Christianity. Just because you add the word Christianity in front of something doesn't make it viable or correct. Why even bother with all the negative connotations involved in mysticism? We are supposed to be separate come out from among the world and that means in every aspect including mysticism. I have an imposed anything on your words I simply Illustrated what the common meaning or connotations of them are and that it doesn't fit into a Biblical lifestyle.


Exactly, and that is in no way mystical.

Stanj: It's better to use the format the way it is intended to be used here. If you want to quote the entire post then you can use the quote button or if you want to quote sections of it use the multi quote button. The following link will give you some info on how to use BB code.
Hmmmmmm..........clear as mud. No help.

Stanj: Yes and that is metaphorical language to identify in actuality what happens spiritually.
Ok. You call that "metaphorical language."

Stanj: I didn't use the term Christian mysticism, those are your words and in my opinion are designed to deflect from the actual issue.
Everybody's got an opinion.
They aren't "designed" to do anything but distinguish pagan meditation from Christian.

Stanj: I didn't mysticism and in its proper context and connotations it is not something that's needed in Christianity.
Again: Everybody's got an opinion.

Just because you add the word Christianity in front of something doesn't make it viable or correct.
Just because you don't like or understand the concept doesn't make it non-viable or incorrect.

Stanj: Why even bother with all the negative connotations involved in mysticism?
Those connotations are the product of your imagination. (as in: Everybody's got an opinion.)

Stanj: We are supposed to be separate come out from among the world and that means in every aspect including mysticism.
Christianity is a mystical religion. You assert that we should "come out from it."
I really don't think you know what mysticism is.
See: http://www.innerexplorations.com/chmystext/christia2.htm
Maybe that can help.

Stanj: I have an imposed anything on your words I simply Illustrated what the common meaning or connotations of them are and that it doesn't fit into a Biblical lifestyle.
In your opinion and, possible, common to your experience. Please be aware that your opinions based on your experiences are not definitive for all of Christianity. They are only definitive for your personal experience.

By the way, you tend to leave words out of your posts (I have ??? an imposed anything...)

Stanj: Exactly, and that is in no way mystical.
You make my point for me. By such a comment you make it obvious that you do not understand the subject

I hope you are able to follow the conversation until I figure out how to "hold my mouth right" for this forum's quotation method.

iakov the fool



[SIZE=9pt]You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. [/SIZE]

 

[OzSpen]

iakov,

Apart from quoting the entire post of the poster to whom you are replying by using the 'Quote' function in the lower left hand corner of a post, I only know how to quote a portion of your post by using the 'quote' icon in the second row above what I'm writing. I'll use that now:

I hope you are able to follow the conversation until I figure out how to "hold my mouth right" for this forum's quotation method.

I increase the quote font size to 14 so that this old fella can read it more readily.

I find the MultiQuote function in the lower right corner to be useless. I need an owner's manual to know how to operate it. So, I never use it as I don't know how to use it for practical purposes.

May you have a good day. By now it should be early Sat afternoon for you while it is 7am Sunday for me.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[iakov]

Fasting was part of the old Covenant, and as the old Covenant is no longer applicable neither is the fasting part of it. Fasting is also personal it is not meant to invoke any type of special dispensation from God.

In any event the following link should give you some good perspective on this issue
http://www.titusinstitute.com/christianliving/fastingbible.php

Stanj: Fasting was part of the old Covenant, and as the old Covenant is no longer applicable neither is the fasting part of it.
Whaaaatt???

Jesus taught his disciples that prayer combined with fasting was important to their ministry (Mat 17:21) and His teaching on not making your fasting obvious (Mat 6:16-17) assumes that believers will fast.

Luke reported that the Paul's apostolic band prayed with fasting. (Act 14:23)

Paul gave instruction to married couples which assumes that believers will practice fasting. (1Co 7:4-5)

So, I don't know where you get the idea that fasting is no longer applicable. It is certainly not from the New Testament.

Fasting is a spiritual exercise in which we exercise authority over the flesh from where the passions arise in order to draw closer to God.

Here's some info on it. http://www.allaboutgod.com/christian-fasting.htm

Stanj: Fasting is also personal it is not meant to invoke any type of special dispensation from God.
Where did that come from? Did someone suggest that dispensations were available through fasting? I didn't see that.

 

[iakov]

iakov,

Apart from quoting the entire post of the poster to whom you are replying by using the 'Quote' function in the lower left hand corner of a post, I only know how to quote a portion of your post by using the 'quote' icon in the second row above what I'm writing. I'll use that now:

I increase the quote font size to 14 so that this old fella can read it more readily.

I find the MultiQuote function in the lower right corner to be useless. I need an owner's manual to know how to operate it. So, I never use it as I don't know how to use it for practical purposes.

May you have a good day. By now it should be early Sat afternoon for you while it is 7am Sunday for me.

Blessings,
Oz

THe "quote" function appears at the lower RIGHT hand on my screen.
I don't see a second row above what I'm writing.

??????

Also, is there a way to know when someone responds to a post without having to search through all the posts in every topic where I have posted?

Confused in Las Vegas.

 

[OzSpen]

THe "quote" function appears at the lower RIGHT hand on my screen.
I don't see a second row above what I'm writing.

??????

Confused in Las Vegas.

There are 2 rows in my task bar at the top of what I'm writing. Hang your cursor over the yellow quotation marks icon and it will tell you that it is a 'quote' function. Click that and you'll be able to copy and paste from the post to which you are replying into the quote thing provided.

Like this:

Confused in Las Vegas.

Are you still confused?

I'm of the view that CyB should have a mini tutorial on how to use the functions of writing and replying. Most forums I've used have fairly common functions, but this one is somewhat different in some places, especially with the 'Quote' function in the lower left corner.

My wife is calling for breakfast on this Sunday morning. I had better be an obedient husband.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Hmmmmmm..........clear as mud. No help.

Here is your first part of your post. It opens with double square brackets, [ ], surrounding the command which states quote name equals "iakov" in quotation marks then post="274157" timestamp="1457815127"

Whenever you want to use a specific part of the quite you close it off with the same square brackets [ ], around the command '/quote'

You do the above with every section you want to deal with. In order to do this you have to use the multi quote feature so it uses BB code instead of the normal heading that shows up if you just do quote. Now and some browsers such as Chrome on my Android tablet it doesn't recognize the quote button and simply shows that BB code but if you're using Internet Explorer it does make a difference. The link I gave you shows all the commands that you would need on any Bulletin Board, which is what CB is. Sometimes the commands are not case sensitive but I find on a lot of sites it is best to show the commands in lower case.

 

[StanJ]

Stanj: Fasting was part of the old Covenant, and as the old Covenant is no longer applicable neither is the fasting part of it.
Whaaaatt???

Jesus taught his disciples that prayer combined with fasting was important to their ministry (Mat 17:21) and His teaching on not making your fasting obvious (Mat 6:16-17) assumes that believers will fast.

Luke reported that the Paul's apostolic band prayed with fasting. (Act 14:23)

Paul gave instruction to married couples which assumes that believers will practice fasting. (1Co 7:4-5)

So, I don't know where you get the idea that fasting is no longer applicable. It is certainly not from the New Testament.

Fasting is a spiritual exercise in which we exercise authority over the flesh from where the passions arise in order to draw closer to God.

Here's some info on it. http://www.allaboutgod.com/christian-fasting.htm

Stanj: Fasting is also personal it is not meant to invoke any type of special dispensation from God.
Where did that come from? Did someone suggest that dispensations were available through fasting? I didn't see that.

Well I guess you either didn't understand what I posted or you refused to actually read it? In any event you didn't answer what I wrote you just wrote what you wanted to write. Very non-productive.

 

[OzSpen]

Here is your first part of your post. It opens with double square brackets, [ ], surrounding the command which states quote name equals "iakov" in quotation marks then post="274157" timestamp="1457815127"

Whenever you want to use a specific part of the quite you close it off with the same square brackets [ ], around the command '/quote'

You do the above with every section you want to deal with. In order to do this you have to use the multi quote feature so it uses BB code instead of the normal heading that shows up if you just do quote. Now and some browsers such as Chrome on my Android tablet it doesn't recognize the quote button and simply shows that BB code but if you're using Internet Explorer it does make a difference. The link I gave you shows all the commands that you would need on any Bulletin Board, which is what CB is. Sometimes the commands are not case sensitive but I find on a lot of sites it is best to show the commands in lower case.

Stan,

I use Firefox as my browser. I have not a clue what you mean by double square brackets [ ] surrounding the command. I don't see any double square brackets, but I do see the Quote of your post which I have obtained by choosing the 'Quote' icon in the bottom right of the screen.

Now that I've started my reply to you, there is no MultiQuote option available in this answer window. So the information you are providing is meaningless as I can't see what you are talking about.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

I use Firefox as my browser. I have not a clue what you mean by double square brackets [ ] surrounding the command. I don't see any double square brackets, but I do see the Quote of your post which I have obtained by choosing the 'Quote' icon in the bottom right of the screen.

Now that I've started my reply to you, there is no MultiQuote option available in this answer window. So the information you are providing is meaningless as I can't see what you are talking about.

Oz

If you go to the more reply options button it will bring you to a page that has a light switch in the top left-hand corner of the reply field.
Then if you click on that light switch icon it will turn the screen off so you can see the BB coding
Now you should be able to see the coding between the brackets and as long as you keep the opening and closing quote marks at the beginning and end of each section of the quote you should have no problems
I have never liked Firefox because it is never been ready for prime time but to each his own. By the way I just did this on the Firefox browser for Android and twice while I was trying to do it it crashed

 

[iakov]

Stan,

I use Firefox as my browser. I have not a clue what you mean by double square brackets [ ] surrounding the command. I don't see any double square brackets, but I do see the Quote of your post which I have obtained by choosing the 'Quote' icon in the bottom right of the screen.

Now that I've started my reply to you, there is no MultiQuote option available in this answer window. So the information you are providing is meaningless as I can't see what you are talking about.

Oz

OZ
I use Firefox as well (on my Mac book) and I've just about had it with the way the forum "works."
It's a pain in the neck to use and I don't need the aggravation.

jim

 

[StanJ]

Then I suggest you both switch to Google Chrome. It's not the forum, it's PHP, which works better with Internet Explorer or Chrome than it does with Firefox.
PHP is the software that most forums like this run on.

 

[OzSpen]

If you go to the more reply options button it will bring you to a page that has a light switch in the top left-hand corner of the reply field.
Then if you click on that light switch icon it will turn the screen off so you can see the BB coding
Now you should be able to see the coding between the brackets and as long as you keep the opening and closing quote marks at the beginning and end of each section of the quote you should have no problems
I have never liked Firefox because it is never been ready for prime time but to each his own. By the way I just did this on the Firefox browser for Android and twice while I was trying to do it it crashed

There is no 'more reply options' button to click. There is an 'Options' icon in the top right of the top task bar. To click this, gives me these options:

• Paste as plain text by default
• Clear my saved content

That helps ZERO.

The BBCode Mode icon is in the top left corner of the dialogue box as I type. No public forum, if it wants traffic, should require the minutiae that you have described. It should be made eazy-peazy for people with basic IT skills.

Whether you like Firefox or not is not the issue. My son is an IT professional and he recommended moving to Firefox from IE as Firefox is more secure. I have used Firefox for years as a reliable browser. We use Chrome for banking, so I would not use it here.

I hope that CyB IT folks look in on our discussion and do something about making CyB user friendly for folks like myself. Otherwise it drives people away from this forum as it is not easy to move around.

Oz

 

[Wormwood]

WW,

That's not how Jesus saw it, as he made clear in John 14:12 (ESV): 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father'.

What works did Jesus do? His works included miracles, as recorded in the Gospels. Jesus' teaching is that 'whoever believes' in him shall do the works he did and even greater works than these. Why? He was returning to the Father and would no longer be available to do it through an earthly ministry. To whom did he give that ministry? He gave to those who believe in him. That includes you, me, and millions of others throughout the last 2000 years.

I'm not inventing this. I'm following what Jesus stated.

Oz

Oz,

I would not discount the miraculous today. I did not intend to say that miracles cannot happen nor that a Christian could not have a miraculous gift. I was simply trying to underline the notion that we are not to be sign-seekers or be people who strive to validate their beliefs with miraculous proofs. I simply do not think such works are to be considered normative in the Christian life. There is nothing in all of Christian history that would suggest that miracle working powers were commonplace among everyday believers. I think the NT calls them "signs" and "wonders" for a reason. As Stan pointed out, the NT indicates that not all would have such gifts, and, unfortunately I feel that those segments of Christianity that argue as much often fall into emotionalism and have an unhealthy fascination with signs and wonders. In fact, when Paul speaks of Christian maturity, he uses the fruit of the Spirit as his barometer, not the ability to perform miracles. It seems there were Corinthian believers with such abilities who were also very carnal and ungodly in their behaviors.

As far as the quote from Jesus, I do think Christians have done greater works. I think this is testified to in the book of Acts. More importantly, I think these works Jesus speaks of reflects primarily on the preaching of the Gospel. Jesus empowered his followers to preach a message of eternal life to their hearers. Jesus never preached of faith in his death, burial and resurrection. Jesus never proclaimed a message that brought the gift of the Holy Spirit into the life of his hearers that He might dwell in them and empower them to live a sanctified life. I think this is the focus of what Jesus is talking about. Remember what Jesus said to the seventy when they returned from doing miracles and preaching the Good news of the Kingdom,

“Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”” (Luke 10:20, ESV)

Those who preach the Gospel have recieved power from God to share a message that can free a person from sin, enscribe their names in heaven and grant them the Holy Spirit of God to dwell in them and testify that they are children of the Almighty God. Paul's primary focus as a believer, even to his dying day, was not the power that was at work in him to heal the sick and raise the dead, but the advance of the Gospel.

“Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.” (2 Timothy 2:8–10, ESV)

One day we will stand in that heavenly, eternal kingdom. Then we will realize the power of God. That power is most fully on display, not at the raising or healing of a mortal body that is destined to perish, but in transforming of a person's eternity by preaching the blood of Jesus that cleanses and saves the sinner's soul.

 

[StanJ]

There is no 'more reply options' button to click. There is an 'Options' icon in the top right of the top task bar. To click this, gives me these options:

• Paste as plain text by default
• Clear my saved content

That helps ZERO.

The BBCode Mode icon is in the top left corner of the dialogue box as I type. No public forum, if it wants traffic, should require the minutiae that you have described. It should be made eazy-peazy for people with basic IT skills.

Whether you like Firefox or not is not the issue. My son is an IT professional and he recommended moving to Firefox from IE as Firefox is more secure. I have used Firefox for years as a reliable browser. We use Chrome for banking, so I would not use it here.

I hope that CyB IT folks look in on our discussion and do something about making CyB user friendly for folks like myself. Otherwise it drives people away from this forum as it is not easy to move around.

Oz

I have discussed this with the admin and they're having enough trouble getting Internet Explorer and chrome to work properly. I doubt very much that they entertain any other browser at this point in time. You could always use Internet Explorer for just one purpose but that is up to you. I'm just trying to help out.

See the following link for fastest browsers;

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2966127/browsers/the-best-web-browser-of-2015-firefox-chrome-edge-ie-and-opera-compared.html?page=2

 

[StanJ]

There is no 'more reply options' button to click. There is an 'Options' icon in the top right of the top task bar. To click this, gives me these options:

• Paste as plain text by default
• Clear my saved content

That helps ZERO.

The BBCode Mode icon is in the top left corner of the dialogue box as I type. No public forum, if it wants traffic, should require the minutiae that you have described. It should be made eazy-peazy for people with basic IT skills.

Whether you like Firefox or not is not the issue. My son is an IT professional and he recommended moving to Firefox from IE as Firefox is more secure. I have used Firefox for years as a reliable browser. We use Chrome for banking, so I would not use it here.

I hope that CyB IT folks look in on our discussion and do something about making CyB user friendly for folks like myself. Otherwise it drives people away from this forum as it is not easy to move around.

Oz

So when you click the quote button, there is no button in the bottom right on the next screen that says more reply options?

In any event if you ask for help and get it and then refuse to use it, then why even bother asking? CB is NOT the problem.

 

[r4hnsn]

Fasting was part of the old Covenant, and as the old Covenant is no longer applicable neither is the fasting part of it. Fasting is also personal it is not meant to invoke any type of special dispensation from God.

In any event the following link should give you some good perspective on this issue
http://www.titusinstitute.com/christianliving/fastingbible.php

Hi Stan, not sure where you get that from, Jesus said "when the groom is taken away his disciples will fast" Math 9:15. Can`t get much more NT than that can you?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I would not discount the miraculous today. I did not intend to say that miracles cannot happen nor that a Christian could not have a miraculous gift. I was simply trying to underline the notion that we are not to be sign-seekers or be people who strive to validate their beliefs with miraculous proofs. I simply do not think such works are to be considered normative in the Christian life. There is nothing in all of Christian history that would suggest that miracle working powers were commonplace among everyday believers. I think the NT calls them "signs" and "wonders" for a reason. As Stan pointed out, the NT indicates that not all would have such gifts, and, unfortunately I feel that those segments of Christianity that argue as much often fall into emotionalism and have an unhealthy fascination with signs and wonders. In fact, when Paul speaks of Christian maturity, he uses the fruit of the Spirit as his barometer, not the ability to perform miracles. It seems there were Corinthian believers with such abilities who were also very carnal and ungodly in their behaviors.

As far as the quote from Jesus, I do think Christians have done greater works. I think this is testified to in the book of Acts. More importantly, I think these works Jesus speaks of reflects primarily on the preaching of the Gospel. Jesus empowered his followers to preach a message of eternal life to their hearers. Jesus never preached of faith in his death, burial and resurrection. Jesus never proclaimed a message that brought the gift of the Holy Spirit into the life of his hearers that He might dwell in them and empower them to live a sanctified life. I think this is the focus of what Jesus is talking about. Remember what Jesus said to the seventy when they returned from doing miracles and preaching the Good news of the Kingdom,


Those who preach the Gospel have recieved power from God to share a message that can free a person from sin, enscribe their names in heaven and grant them the Holy Spirit of God to dwell in them and testify that they are children of the Almighty God. Paul's primary focus as a believer, even to his dying day, was not the power that was at work in him to heal the sick and raise the dead, but the advance of the Gospel.


One day we will stand in that heavenly, eternal kingdom. Then we will realize the power of God. That power is most fully on display, not at the raising or healing of a mortal body that is destined to perish, but in transforming of a person's eternity by preaching the blood of Jesus that cleanses and saves the sinner's soul.

WW,

I don't disagree with some of your emphases, but you seem to be missing these:

Charisma magazine featured an article in February 2015, 'Why Are There More Miracle Healings in Third World Countries?' In my view, it exposes some legitimate reasons who we are not seeing more healings in the West.

Peter Wagner wrote a number of years ago:

Why is it that we American evangelicals have not really believed in the immediate power of the Holy Spirit in miracles and wonders? Oh, most of us believed it intellectually because we read about it in the Bible. But it did not play much of a part, if any, in our daily lives or in our churches. I now think that a good deal of the problem is the pervasive influence of secular humanism in our American culture (cited in Beyond the Veil, p. 104).

What about James 5:13-18 (NIV)?

13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.

This requires the prayer of faith of the elders and confession of sins.

Oz

 

[jaybird]

OZ
I use Firefox as well (on my Mac book) and I've just about had it with the way the forum "works."
It's a pain in the neck to use and I don't need the aggravation.

jim

i have never had issues reading your post. i dont see what the big deal is.

 

[Wormwood]

WW,

I don't disagree with some of your emphases, but you seem to be missing these:

Charisma magazine featured an article in February 2015, 'Why Are There More Miracle Healings in Third World Countries?' In my view, it exposes some legitimate reasons who we are not seeing more healings in the West.

Peter Wagner wrote a number of years ago:

What about James 5:13-18 (NIV)?


This requires the prayer of faith of the elders and confession of sins.

Oz

Hey Oz,

I do agree with you that in the west we have a tendency to be intellectual about everything and not rely or seek God to move in those ways. I would not be surprised if this resulted in a lack of the Spirit's moving in these ways. At the same time, I have been around some churches and individuals who placed a heavy emphasis on such things in their lives and this did not lead to greater works of miracles or wonders in their lives...and those works they sometimes claimed to be a sign or wonder seemed very different than that which is portrayed in the NT (i.e. someone falling on the floor or guessing that someone had a headache in the audience rather than a blind man given sight or dead man raised from the dead). So I guess my point is that we should pray and expect God to move in our prayers more than we do, but we shouldnt gauge Christian maturity on such matters nor place an inappropriate emphasis on them because we just do not see this emphasis in the NT.

Anyway, I guess my point to jaybird is that Christians do not follow in the trends of Eastern mysticism because our confidence is in a revealed Word rather than subjective personal experiences. Often, Christians suffer terribly in the world and their solace is not in various fasts, meditations, or personal efforts to bring about some state of inner enlightenment. Rather, they trust in the promises of God made through the Word and rely on the Spirit to strengthen them through grace in the midst of their weaknesses. Our resource is God's promise and our trust that what He has said is true and he will be faithful to us...even if we lose everything in this world. We look to another world and are citizens of another place.