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Monotheism vs. Predestination

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by friend of, Nov 3, 2019.

  1. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering, does the belief in a singular God by an uncommitted person (one without a religion like Christianity) actually evidence that we are not as dead as predestination doctrine would have us believe? To me, the nonreligious belief in God at all would seem to show a semblance of wakefulness and Life even in those who are unconverted to Christ.

    I ask because I talked with someone today and they told me that they DID believe in God. To me, I do not believe it can be said then that this person is completely spiritually dead, since his affirmation displays Theism, albeit, at its most fundamental level. Yet most Predestination Christians would believe that this counts for nothing and would say that he is still utterly dead and unregenerate since this is not a positive belief on Christ. They use verses from Romans 5:6 and Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13 and the like, to back up their take on the matter.

    I find this interesting, don't you? What does it say about the state of those who have not fully come to saving knowledge of Christ as savior and Lord? Are they really dead in spite of acknowledging a Creator/Monotheism?

    To me, this evidences at least the vital signs of Spiritual life.

    God bless,
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they are still spiritually dead, not having believed on The Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Acts 4:10-12
    10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.

    11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    KJV


    The matter is simple. There is NO OTHER FAITH on earth that presents a Saviour as Immanuel (God with us) come in the flesh to die on a cross for the remission of sins of those who believe.

    The initiate fraternities which support the idea of a "one world government" like to push the false idea that all religions are equal. That's even what they teach their little lackeys with their secret Christianity degrees (Weishaupt). Their puppets in governments are even busy passing legislation that it's a hate crime to say all religions aren't all equal. It will eventually come down to their service to Satan requiring everyone to state their support for all religions, and even worship of the beast image to represent the amalgamation of all of them. True Christians will not do so. If God's Salvation through His Son is not the only Way, then it would mean He has no power to forgiven sin, and is just a flesh man, which of course is what Satan's servants want us to believe.
     
  4. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    The doctrine of Predestination that is debated today is not a Biblical doctrine. There's also no such thing as "spiritually dead". These are just idea that people have come up with to try to reconcile passages of Scripture that don't fit their doctrine. Anyone who chooses to follow Christ can come to the Lord. John said that Christ gives light, understanding, to everyone coming into the world.

    The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    (Jn. 1:7-9 KJV)

    John says that all through Christ may believe. In verse 9 he says Christ gives light or understanding to every man. In the Greek text it's in the singular number. Which means it's ever single person.
     
  5. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Getitright, I see that you are new to CB. Welcome!

    I believe that all may believe (whosoever) if they so choose, but Jesus said those who practice evil hate the light and will not come to the light.

    John 3:19-21--And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
     
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  6. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    Thanks for the welcome! I agree with your statement.
     
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  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The term and concept of "predestination" is a biblical term/concept...see Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4, Ephesians 1:11, 1 Peter 1:2.

    I think that I have to disagree with you there too...on the basis of Ephesians 2:1 and 2 Corinthians 5:14.

    However,

    Welcome to the boards!

    Don't let a little disagreement deter you from posting.
     
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  8. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    Predestination is Biblical. The doctrine that is called Predestination is not.



    Neither of those passages says anything about being spiritually dead.

    Thanks!

    Not at all.[/quote]
     
  9. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    What about the verse

    No man can come to me lest my father draw him?
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Can you elaborate on this?

    I think they do...and that pretty clearly.
     
  11. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    Sure. What people today call the doctrine of Predestination, that God chose or chooses some and not others to be saved, is not a Biblical doctrine. Predestination in the Bible refers to Israel as a nation. God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation. Right there in that promise is seen the predestination or predetermining of Israel as a nation. The word Predestination simply means to predetermine something. God had predetermined to make a great nation from Abraham. That nation is Israel. If the passages in the Scriptures that use the word predestine are read in context this become clear.
     
  12. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2.1: 'And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...'
     
  13. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    When Jesus was on earth His ministry was specifically to the Jews. He said,

    24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 15:24 NKJ)

    So, His statement about coming to Him was limited to Israel at that time. However, He made another statement after that.

    And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (Jn. 12:32 KJV)

    When Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him, it was for a limited time during Jesus ministry and it was meant of disciples. It meant for people who could literally come to Him. As in walk up to Him and follow Him as the apostles did. Today many people use the phrase, come to Jesus, figuratively, to simply mean to believe. When Jesus said it, it was literal. Those who could literally come to Him.
     
  14. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    That doesn't say anything about being spiritually dead. Paul uses metaphors quite often.
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    He goes on to say about being made alive by God's grace. Why? because they had been spiritually dead.

    I don't think we are going to agree here.
     
  16. Getitright

    Getitright Member

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    He does. But it says nothing about spirituality. Paul also said, "I die daily". Does that mean he died spiritually everyday? He said,

    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.1
    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    (Rom. 7:7-12 KJV)

    Was Paul spiritually alive before the commandment and then spiritually dead after it?

    None of these passages have anything to do with spiritually. There's no reason to insert the idea into the text when it's not there. For some reason people do this with Ephesians 2. There's no reason insert a concept that isn't found in Scripture. If they weren't literally dead, the logical conclusion is that Paul is using a figure of speech. They were dead in sin. What does that mean" What can a dead person do? Nothing. So, the metaphor means they could do nothing about their sinful condition. That's a simple and logical explanation that doesn't require creating new concepts to explain the text.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    In what sense were we dead in trespasses and sins, if we were not spiritually dead?
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I do believe that predestination, the concept that God chose people from the foundations of the world, is, in fact, a biblical doctrine (see Ephesians 1:4).

    I do believe that it is not by an arbitrary choice of God, but rather that predestination is according to foreknowledge.
     
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