Morality vs. Love

[aspen]

Based on recent conversations on this board, morality seems to have taken a front seat to love in the process of Christian sanctification. It is true that Jesus tells people to go and sin no more many times in the NT, but is that a challenge to go out and become moral? Of course morality is important, but even the pagans are moral people - even the Pharisees were moral. Christ did not say they will know we are Christian by our moral code and the ability to live up to it. He said that they will know us by our love.

For some strange reason, people here do not like to hear about love, however, they fail to realize that love is the solution to sin - if you are loving others and God, you are not focused on yourself and therefore, tempted to to fulfill your own desires above others. If you are practicing love you are fulfilling God's Will for your life. If you choose to love, you are living out all the Be Attitudes. Love also takes care of morality without tapping into our Pride. If we are loving perfectly, we are not sinning. In fact, we may not be about to be perfectly moral (following an external standard), but we can learn to love perfectly (love God and other because we have experienced His love for our true self - we are truly known by Him).

So why the false dichotomy? Why are we so concerned about our tendency to misuse creation (sin, fail to follow our moral code)? While we fail to implement the solution (love)?

 

[Rach1370]

Nice post Aspen! Jesus Himself told us that all the commandment could be summed up in only two: love God and love others. Usually when we try and sum things up we kinda miss the point, committee wise! But I think we're safe in Jesus' advice!

I think the following verse is very wise as well. Salvation comes from God in His love and grace. Safe in that knowledge we then go out and do good works...but we need to be very careful about why we do these good works. We should do them out of love of God and others, out of gratitude, out of a desire to make much of God and His grace. Anyone who loses sight of these purposes are then doing these works out of morality and a mistaken desire to make much of themselves, not God.

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
(Titus 3:4-11 ESV)

 

[aspen]

YES!!

 

[prism]

I see more of a distinction on these boards between love, (morality included) by way of self+Christ in contrast to love, (morality included) by way Christ alone (which involves faith alone). In other words the old Rome vs. Reformation debate respectively.
Is love and purity (morality) of life a result (fruit) of the Spirit primarily working in us through the Word and trials (Reformation) or primarily through our own effort with the Spirit's help (Rome and many modern day Evangelicals)?

 

[lawrance]

True morality is love. or Love is true morality in truth.

 

[aspen]

I see more of a distinction on these boards between love, (morality included) by way of self+Christ in contrast to love, (morality included) by way Christ alone (which involves faith alone). In other words the old Rome vs. Reformation debate respectively.
Is love and purity (morality) of life a result (fruit) of the Spirit primarily working in us through the Word and trials (Reformation) or primarily through our own effort with the Spirit's help (Rome and many modern day Evangelicals)?

I am not sure the dividing line is as clear as you are stating it. I am Roman Catholic, but I only talk about our participation in our sanctification, which has nothing to do with salvation in Reformation theology. Prentis and Episkopos and Jake talk so much about spirit lead works on our part that they are all willing to say that if you are not willing to agree that participation is not involved in justification and sanctification, and that includes the spirit lead ability to stop sinning, you are not really a Christian, which is way more works focused than I am willing to go.

I do think you are right that works and faith have been discussed a lot lately, though.

I am interested in your belief about the role of morality in our sanctification.

Episkopos/Prentis/Jake - if I misrepresented your beliefs - let me know.

 

[prism]

I am interested in your belief about the role of morality in our sanctification.

I believe morality is important but is more of a fruit of the Spirit. Yes, God involves us but only as He first works in and upon us conforming us into His Image through His Word of Grace, His Spirit, trials, chastisements etc. He is the Initiator we are responders. He slowly shapes our responses. There is no merit on our part.

 

[aspen]

Prism - yes, I agree with that - I really like how you worded your point - that we are responders to God's initiation. Merit is all God's - we get to benefit in our sanctification through the relationship.

 

[prism]

Aspen,

You say you are Roman Catholic. Is it true that Rome sees justification as a lifelong process along the lines of sanctification?
I see a number on this board denying Rome and yet embracing that formula for justification rather than the Reformers view of a declared righteousness by God through faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ (i.e. Christ's righteousness credited to our account freely on account of Christ).

 

[aspen]

Aspen,

You say you are Roman Catholic. Is it true that Rome sees justification as a lifelong process along the lines of sanctification?
I see a number on this board denying Rome and yet embracing that formula for justification rather than the Reformers view of a declared righteousness by God through faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ (i.e. Christ's righteousness credited to our account freely on account of Christ).

I am Roman Catholic. Roman Catholic doctrine does teach that Justification and sanctification are life long processes - which goes along with the idea that Christians can deny their justification and leave the faith. I see the same thing happening, prism - they are not being consistent with Protestant doctrine. In fact, as I have said before, some people are willing to go farther away from Protestant doctrine than I am!

BTW, I usually do not talk about Catholic doctrine on this site - I believe Protestants are Christian.

 

[Rach1370]

I see a number on this board denying Rome and yet embracing that formula for justification rather than the Reformers view of a declared righteousness by God through faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ (i.e. Christ's righteousness credited to our account freely on account of Christ).

This 'formula' worries me greatly. Anything that takes salvation away from Jesus and puts it on us is not only unbiblical, but also impossible. People are incapable of being 'good' enough to have any action what so ever in salvation. If they were, if they could have any action in it, why was Jesus' perfect life and death necessary?? I think too often people forget that Jesus didn't just die for our sins...he was able to do that and be our sacrifice, because of His perfect, sinless life. Not just anyone could have taken our place on that cross, only someone who had lived a completely sin free life, could have...and none of us have done that...it took God.

 

[Jake]

This 'formula' worries me greatly. Anything that takes salvation away from Jesus and puts it on us is not only unbiblical, but also impossible. People are incapable of being 'good' enough to have any action what so ever in salvation. If they were, if they could have any action in it, why was Jesus' perfect life and death necessary?? I think too often people forget that Jesus didn't just die for our sins...he was able to do that and be our sacrifice, because of His perfect, sinless life. Not just anyone could have taken our place on that cross, only someone who had lived a completely sin free life, could have...and none of us have done that...it took God.

Jesus is not OUR sacrifice, He is God's sacrifice, why do we take ownership in places where we are not the ones owning. We also don't own ourselves, we were bought with a price.

You have misinterpeted what some people are saying, it is only IN Christ, we are being sanctified, it is a process done by HIM, not us. It is because of Jesus we are able to be sanctified. How? Because our lives are hidden in Christ, it is His life we are living, we are His vessels, with Him IN us doing HIS work.

We don't save ourselves, it is only Jesus IN us, that we are being saved.

 

[prism]

Jesus is not OUR sacrifice, He is God's sacrifice, why do we take ownership in places where we are not the ones owning. We also don't own ourselves, we were bought with a price.

He is God's sacrificial provision and yet as man Jesus offered Himself to God; and as man He identifies with us as our High Priest/Lamb. . So we can say also He is our Sacrifice, well pleasing unto God.

 

[Jake]

He is God's sacrificial provision and yet as man Jesus offered Himself to God; and as man He identifies with us as our High Priest/Lamb. . So we can say also He is our Sacrifice, well pleasing unto God.

Prism, this is not true and it lessens the sacrifice God provided and the why. When there is a sacrifice, it means something was given up. God gave up His Son. Was it your son you were giving up? No. God gave us His sacrifice and now we sacrifice our very wills and life to be a living sacrifice for God, this is our sacrifice. To believe anything different and to take part in the ownership of what God has done for us, is to say that some of it was our idea, or to even know what it cost to sacrifice His only Son.

Romans 12 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service

 

[Rach1370]

Jesus is not OUR sacrifice, He is God's sacrifice, why do we take ownership in places where we are not the ones owning. We also don't own ourselves, we were bought with a price.

You have misinterpeted what some people are saying, it is only IN Christ, we are being sanctified, it is a process done by HIM, not us. It is because of Jesus we are able to be sanctified. How? Because our lives are hidden in Christ, it is His life we are living, we are His vessels, with Him IN us doing HIS work.

We don't save ourselves, it is only Jesus IN us, that we are being saved.

You misunderstand me. All I meant when I said He is 'our' sacrifice, is that He was sacrificed in our place, for our sins.

As far as misinterpreting what others are saying, no, I have not. I have, in fact, been quite precise in making sure I understand what they were saying, hoping that I was perhaps wrong in my understanding....I was not. I'm not going to get into the argument again, as I know it will be futile...if you want to know what was said to me and my replies, go and read a few of my back and forths with Prentis.

 

[prism]

Prism, this is not true and it lessens the sacrifice God provided and the why. When there is a sacrifice, it means something was given up. God gave up His Son. Was it your son you were giving up? No. God gave us His sacrifice and now we sacrifice our very wills and life to be a living sacrifice for God, this is our sacrifice. To believe anything different and to take part in the ownership of what God has done for us, is to say that some of it was our idea, or to even know what it cost to sacrifice His only Son.

Romans 12 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service

Jake,
Go ahead, you can sacrifice yourself to obtain forgiveness. I choose to plead Christ's sacrifice in my stead for the remission of my sins. This is why I said "He is God's sacrificial provision and yet as man Jesus offered Himself to God; and as man He identifies with us as our High Priest/Lamb. . So we can say also He is our Sacrifice, well pleasing unto God."
I don't understand why it has to be an 'either/or' proposition and not both; after all He was truly God / truly man..
Perhaps you want to disprove these verses,,,
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(Heb 2:17)
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14)
Do you see both priest and Lamb in these?

 

[aspen]

Jake,
Go ahead, you can sacrifice yourself to obtain forgiveness. I choose to plead Christ's sacrifice in my stead for the remission of my sins. This is why I said "He is God's sacrificial provision and yet as man Jesus offered Himself to God; and as man He identifies with us as our High Priest/Lamb. . So we can say also He is our Sacrifice, well pleasing unto God."
I don't understand why it has to be an 'either/or' proposition and not both; after all He was truly God / truly man..
Perhaps you want to disprove these verses,,,
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(Heb 2:17)
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14)
Do you see both priest and Lamb in these?

I mention on another thread that there are a few people on this board that really know how to present verses in a compelling manner - I may not always agree with your conclusions, but I always see your point of view and learn from your posts.

 

[Jake]

Jake,
Go ahead, you can sacrifice yourself to obtain forgiveness. I choose to plead Christ's sacrifice in my stead for the remission of my sins. This is why I said "He is God's sacrificial provision and yet as man Jesus offered Himself to God; and as man He identifies with us as our High Priest/Lamb. . So we can say also He is our Sacrifice, well pleasing unto God."
I don't understand why it has to be an 'either/or' proposition and not both; after all He was truly God / truly man..
Perhaps you want to disprove these verses,,,
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(Heb 2:17)
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14)
Do you see both priest and Lamb in these?

I already stated why it isn't an either and or, Jesus was not yours to sacrifice. He was God's son.

You misunderstand me. All I meant when I said He is 'our' sacrifice, is that He was sacrificed in our place, for our sins.

As far as misinterpreting what others are saying, no, I have not. I have, in fact, been quite precise in making sure I understand what they were saying, hoping that I was perhaps wrong in my understanding....I was not. I'm not going to get into the argument again, as I know it will be futile...if you want to know what was said to me and my replies, go and read a few of my back and forths with Prentis.

Prentis has it spot on, he just explains it better than I do.

 

[Rach1370]

Prentis has it spot on, he just explains it better than I do.

Ah, my point was that I disagree with him. Not on everything, but on a lot of the more important issues.

 

[us2are1]

Based on recent conversations on this board, morality seems to have taken a front seat to love in the process of Christian sanctification. It is true that Jesus tells people to go and sin no more many times in the NT, but is that a challenge to go out and become moral? Of course morality is important, but even the pagans are moral people - even the Pharisees were moral. Christ did not say they will know we are Christian by our moral code and the ability to live up to it. He said that they will know us by our love.

For some strange reason, people here do not like to hear about love, however, they fail to realize that love is the solution to sin - if you are loving others and God, you are not focused on yourself and therefore, tempted to to fulfill your own desires above others. If you are practicing love you are fulfilling God's Will for your life. If you choose to love, you are living out all the Be Attitudes. Love also takes care of morality without tapping into our Pride. If we are loving perfectly, we are not sinning. In fact, we may not be about to be perfectly moral (following an external standard), but we can learn to love perfectly (love God and other because we have experienced His love for our true self - we are truly known by Him).

So why the false dichotomy? Why are we so concerned about our tendency to misuse creation (sin, fail to follow our moral code)? While we fail to implement the solution (love)?

Those who do not practice the morality of Christ don't love anyone to begin with Including themselves. To be a real and true Christian one needs to have the Spirit of Christ leading their actions before they are capable of any Love that will endure. The temporal love of the world is hear today and gone tomorrow. Asking God for His Spirit is the way to understand this issue and all issues.