MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[rwb]

You can read as well I can and you see see just as well as I see that the resurrection happens during Jacob’s trouble which is a short period or with max time being 7 years.

But more so than that, isn’t it obvious when Daniels people were delivered? It was the cross. Isn’t it obvious that many saints that slept awoke with Christ? The evidence is overwhelming that Daniel 12 was fulfilled at the cross and what I don’t understand is why do you not want that to be true?

You’re not trying to harmonize scripture here you’re trying to bend Daniel 12 to fit your view of Revelation 20.

Why can’t you let Daniel 12 say what it says and let Revelation 20 say what it says and then figure out what that means?

Yes, Daniel's people who died in faith before the first advent of Christ were delivered to heaven spiritually, NOT physically! They were not bodily resurrected, because that will not be until the last trumpet sounds. They are the firstfruits unto the Lamb, the spiritual body of Christ in heaven, the hundred and forty-four thousand which were redeemed from the earth. They were awakened and delivered by Christ because they remained faithful unto death.

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

You continue to confuse this spiritual awakening (Dan 12) with a physical resurrection that shall not be until the seventh trumpet sounds.

Those of Daniel's people who were not of faith but died in unbelief shall not be raised to shame and everlasting contempt until the hour that is coming when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that time for this earth shall be no longer. We know the unbelieving dead are not raised to shame and everlasting contempt before they are called to stand before the great white throne to give account according to all that is written in the books and the book of life. The book of life that shall not be opened for those who shall be judged until AFTER the thousand years expires.

What may be confusing you is how Daniel writes that this shall all come to pass during this time/age/era that Daniel writes as "a time of trouble", and Christ says is "great tribulation." Both Daniel's time of trouble and Christ's great tribulation began when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God and will not end until the last trumpet sounds. IOW from the first advent unto the second coming all that is written in Daniel and all the words spoken by Christ from the Mt of Olives shall be fulfilled during this age/time/era symbolically called a/the thousand years of time.

 

[rwb]

rwb, you say our mortal bodies will be "changed from mortal to immortal" — but that actually contradicts the very analogy Paul uses to explain how resurrection works.

Paul says in v.37: "thou sowest not that body that shall be." The seed that goes into the ground is explicitly NOT the body that comes up. It rots. God then gives it a new body as He pleases (v.38). The old body is sown in corruption, weakness, and dishonour — something entirely new is raised in incorruption, power, and glory (v.42-43).

So the seed analogy isn't about transformation of the old body — it's about the old body being left behind while God gives new life a new body. What carries through is the life, not the old physical matter. Paul couldn't have made it clearer: "thou sowest not that body that shall be."

Our physical mortal body is not raised and changed from mortal to immortal until the last trumpet sounds. But the life we have in Christ is ETERNAL! Yes, our mortal body after death returns to dust, but man is more than body of flesh. We are also spirit (breath of life) that gives physical life to our body of flesh. If our spirit that returns to God after death (Ecc. 12:7) dies with our mortal flesh, our life Christ promised is eternal, is not eternal after all. Paul does not define a transformation of our natural body. He tells us it is sown natural but raised a "spiritual body." That in no way defines our body of flesh. Paul clearly writes the two, natural/spiritual are not the same for he writes "there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body", he also writes "that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." And "as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." That image of the heavenly is spirit without human flesh/form.

 

[IndianaRob]

Our physical mortal body is not raised and changed from mortal to immortal until the last trumpet sounds. But the life we have in Christ is ETERNAL! Yes, our mortal body after death returns to dust, but man is more than body of flesh. We are also spirit (breath of life) that gives physical life to our body of flesh. If our spirit that returns to God after death (Ecc. 12:7) dies with our mortal flesh, our life Christ promised is eternal, is not eternal after all. Paul does not define a transformation of our natural body. He tells us it is sown natural but raised a "spiritual body." That in no way defines our body of flesh. Paul clearly writes the two, natural/spiritual are not the same for he writes "there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body", he also writes "that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." And "as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." That image of the heavenly is spirit without human flesh/form.

When a seed is planted, the new plant is not the old seed “regenerated”. That old seed rots in the ground and remains in the ground forever and the new plant is a completely new creation.

When your view of the resurrection lines up with that analogy, then you will have it right. Right now your view doesn’t line up with it.

 

[David in NJ]

MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

Throughout history men have worshiped the Beast (Aka Satan)… “and mortally Died in their Sin”…which Carry’s its own Judgement of Damnation…LOF.

During (mid-time) of the Tribulations Sent Down from Heaven…
The Beast is Revealed, Given Power to entice, gather, conquer, MARK men into his fold AND kill men who reject him.
They who “stand with him”, shall ALSO receive A Damnation (LOF) Judgement.

Worship AND Receive the MARK of the Beast…does = LOF consequence during the Trib.

So ALSO, Before the Trib = LOF, for men WHO while Alive Worshiped the Beast (Satan) and then Mortally Died”.

Different “timing circumstances” of men…
Same Damnination Consequence… LOF.

Neither HAVE the MARK of God, which is Required to become MADE Saved and Avoid the Damination of the LOF.

Glory to God,
Taken

Excellent elaboration - thank you

 

[rwb]

When a seed is planted, the new plant is not the old seed “regenerated”. That old seed rots in the ground and remains in the ground forever and the new plant is a completely new creation.

When your view of the resurrection lines up with that analogy, then you will have it right. Right now your view doesn’t line up with it.

What are you referring to when you say, "a seed is planted"? What is the seed you say is planted?

 

[IndianaRob]

What are you referring to when you say, "a seed is planted"? What is the seed you say is planted?

Paul uses a seed as his way to explain how the resurrection works.

The Resurrection Body


1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?


1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.


1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.


1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:


1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[rwb]

Paul uses a seed as his way to explain how the resurrection works.

The Resurrection Body


1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?


1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.


1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.


1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:


1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Are you saying the mortal body that dies is the seed that is planted?

 

[IndianaRob]

Are you saying the mortal body that dies is the seed that is planted?

Yes Paul uses a planted seed to illustrate the resurrection.

Seed body → Human body
Life in the seed → Soul/Spirit in the human body
Death of the seed → Death of the human body
Life transfers to the new plant → Life transfers to the new body
Seed body returns to the earth → Human body returns to the earth
Pant body glorious brand new creation →Glorified body glorious brand new creation

 

[Davidpt]

You can't be serious here. You are actually complaining that Amil doesn't have the second most important resurrection being referenced in Revelation 20 while Premil doesn't have the MOST important resurrection being referenced in Revelation 20?

Maybe you misunderstand me? In Revelation 20 there are only 2 resurrection events mentioned.

1) the first resurrection

2) the resurrection of the rest of the dead after the thousand years.

Premil = 1) = the bodily resurrection of the saints

Amil = 1) = spiritual resurrection of the saints and is applicable to the here and now, thus is not meaning a bodily resurrection.

Therefore, since the 2nd resurrection event after the thousand years could not possibly be meaning the bodily resurrection of those that have part in the first resurrection, thus the most important resurrection of all, next to Christ's resurrection, Amil has this event missing altogether in Revelation 20. But why?

In Revelation 20 there is no mention of 3 resurrection events. There is mention of only two. In order for Amil to be correct, Amil needs the text to mention 3 resurrection events. 1) a spiritual resurrection of the saints. 2) a bodily resurrection of these same saved saints. 3) a resurrection of the rest of the dead after the thousand years who are raised in order to be judged and sentenced to the LOF. Keeping in mind, the LOF = the 2nd death. And according to the text, verse 6, only those that have part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them.

Which means once they rise from the dead they can't die anymore. Vs the 2nd death which means can still die again. But even if you think ECT is the case instead, it doesn't matter. Only those that have part in the first resurrection escape the 2nd death. Obviously, anyone raised after the thousand years are excluded, otherwise they would have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Can't do that if you were counted among the rest of the dead during the first resurrection, therefore, don't live again until after the thousand years. Can't reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years would be in the past when the rest of the dead live again.

Read verse 6 again if still hasn't sunk in. Every single person where the 2nd death has no power over them, they reign with Christ a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

Yes Paul uses a planted seed to illustrate the resurrection.

Seed body → Human body
Life in the seed → Soul/Spirit in the human body
Death of the seed → Death of the human body
Life transfers to the new plant → Life transfers to the new body
Seed body returns to the earth → Human body returns to the earth
Pant body glorious brand new creation →Glorified body glorious brand new creation

No, he doesn't. Paul uses the analogy of the seed to show how death of the body is when/how we become something entirely new. Just as plants growing from a single seed becomes new life. Paul says that which is quickened after our mortal body dies, will not be the same as the physical body. Rather it (body) shall be a mere grain/seed (spiritual body) as God shall give it. And that spiritual body shall never die. The spiritual body made alive after our mortal body dies will never die because it (spirit) shall give our resurrected physical body the breath of life. Because the body without the spirit has not life. Because life comes from the spirit.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Our natural mortal body is sown in corruption, but raised a spiritual body in incorruption, sown in dishonour; raised in glory: sown in weakness; raised in power: sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Because the spirit of man who dies after having been born again with ETERNAL life does not die, but, returns with Christ, will once again give physical, albeit immortal/incorruptible life to our resurrected body of flesh when the last trumpet sounds.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[ewq1938]

The first group was the Old Testament saints that rose with Christ. The next group are believers after the cross. The thousand years represents life on earth under the dominion (10) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000.

The cattle on a thousand hills are the “sheep” that belong to Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000.

No need to accuse me of using numerology, this is not numerology, it’s how God uses numbers in the Bible. It’s no different than saying the number 7 represents completion.

I asked when the resurrection of the saved happens and you avoided answering.

 

[IndianaRob]

No, he doesn't. Paul uses the analogy of the seed to show how death of the body is when/how we become something entirely new. Just as plants growing from a single seed becomes new life. Paul says that which is quickened after our mortal body dies, will not be the same as the physical body. Rather it (body) shall be a mere grain/seed (spiritual body) as God shall give it. And that spiritual body shall never die. The spiritual body made alive after our mortal body dies will never die because it (spirit) shall give our resurrected physical body the breath of life. Because the body without the spirit has not life. Because life comes from the spirit.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Our natural mortal body is sown in corruption, but raised a spiritual body in incorruption, sown in dishonour; raised in glory: sown in weakness; raised in power: sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Because the spirit of man who dies after having been born again with ETERNAL life does not die, but, returns with Christ, will once again give physical, albeit immortal/incorruptible life to our resurrected body of flesh when the last trumpet sounds.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I'm not giving my interpretation of this, a seed works the way it works, it's biology and you can't interpret biology.

 

[ewq1938]

You can read as well I can and you see see just as well as I see that the resurrection happens during Jacob’s trouble which is a short period or with max time being 7 years.

But more so than that, isn’t it obvious when Daniels people were delivered? It was the cross. Isn’t it obvious that many saints that slept awoke with Christ? The evidence is overwhelming that Daniel 12 was fulfilled at the cross and what I don’t understand is why do you not want that to be true?

You’re not trying to harmonize scripture here you’re trying to bend Daniel 12 to fit your view of Revelation 20.

Why can’t you let Daniel 12 say what it says and let Revelation 20 say what it says and then figure out what that means?

They teach the same thing about two resurrections. Rev shows a thousand years inbetween, and Daniel like other passages does not mention the time gap. Isolating Daniel 12 and not including info from Rev 20 is what you are doing not me. You’re not trying to harmonize scripture here you’re trying to bend Daniel 12 to fit your view of Revelation 20.

 

[IndianaRob]

I asked when the resurrection of the saved happens and you avoided answering.

A believer is resurrected as soon as he believes (that is the resurrection) and will be translated into a glorified body whenever it's time for the believer to leave this world and go to heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

A believer is resurrected as soon as he believes

No, that is being born again before physical death.

(that is the resurrection) and will be translated into a glorified body whenever it's time for the believer to leave this world and go to heaven.

The Resurrection the bible speaks of is when the saved dead physically come to life again. The saved dead are already in heaven before the physical resurrection takes place.

 

[IndianaRob]

They teach the same thing about two resurrections. Rev shows a thousand years inbetween, and Daniel like other passages does not mention the time gap. Isolating Daniel 12 and not including info from Rev 20 is what you are doing not me. You’re not trying to harmonize scripture here you’re trying to bend Daniel 12 to fit your view of Revelation 20.

You just admitted there is no time gap in Daniel 12 by saying "Daniel like other passages does not mention the time gap". And you think I'm bending Daniel 12? You said yourself there is no time gap in Daniel 12.

 

[IndianaRob]

No, that is being born again before physical death.



The Resurrection the bible speaks of is when the saved dead physically come to life again.

I'm not going to argue over it. You are free to believe whatever you want.

 

[rwb]

A believer is resurrected as soon as he believes (that is the resurrection) and will be translated into a glorified body whenever it's time for the believer to leave this world and go to heaven.

A believer is NOT resurrected when they believe! They are born again! Being born again is NOT a resurrection to life again! It's the process through which our natural spirit already possessing natural life is quickened (come to understanding spiritually) through the Spirit of Christ within us. Because the natural spirit in man though physically alive is dead spiritually to understanding the things of God. Our spirit doesn't have to be made alive again, it only needs to receive understanding of spiritual things, which before being born again is altogether absent from fallen man. IOW man needs spiritual discernment not resurrection.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not going to argue over it. You are free to believe whatever you want.

The people described in Revelation 20 refused the mark of the beast, refused to worship the image of the beast and had the testimony of Christ and were murdered because of those things. Non-born again people DO NOT do those things. Does Amill think they did all of those things then were beheaded/killed and THEN they were born again after being killed? No way. Obviously that is wrong.

The truth is they were already born again Christians before refusing the mark, worshiping the image and being killed. After being killed the only resurrection possible is from the dead, physically being brought back to life.


**************************



There's an issue with the whole "spiritual resurrection" in regard to being born again or going from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive because that isn't what a resurrection is.

A resurrection is when someone alive becomes physically dead and then becomes physically alive again. A resurrection is not being physically alive and accepting Christ and becoming born again. Being born a second time is not a resurrection.


If a spiritually dead person accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive, that isn't a resurrection because they had to have been alive, then dead, then alive again for a resurrection to have happened. This is somewhat similar to child birth/conception. They didn't exist but then are born and are alive. That isn't a resurrection but a first experience of life. So, a person who did not have Christ is spiritually dead but if they accept Christ they are spiritually alive for the first time and NO RESURRECTION took place.

The only way a spiritual resurrection can happen is when someone accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive, then somehow becomes an Apostate and rejects Christ and goes back to being spiritually dead, and then re-accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive a second time...thus is a resurrection since resurrection requires life-death-then life again.


Correct terminology is important here.

 

[rwb]

No, that is being born again before physical death.



The Resurrection the bible speaks of is when the saved dead physically come to life again. The saved dead are already in heaven before the physical resurrection takes place.

Resurrection is when anyone physically dead comes to life again. That's the problem many translations force into Rev 20 when they write the living souls of which John speaks had to come to life AGAIN! Why would they need to come to life AGAIN after physical death since the life they received when they were born again is ETERNAL and they were not bodily resurrected? The correct translations say only that John saw "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."