MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??
- Thread starter PeterAndroz
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
No offense and no disrespect intended but I don't like arguing back and forth on issues that we will never even come close to agreeing on.
If man is not born again when they believe why does John tell us we must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God? (see Jo 3)
EXACTLY! Unless a person is born again of what? The incorruptible seed - the incorruptible word of God. A brand new believer literally knows nothing about the bible. No need to debate this one either.
1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The verse is right there that proves how a person is born again and you will reject it just like with the seed analogy. Am I right? If I'm wrong and you're open to debating per what scripture actually says then I would love to discuss it with you but if you can't accept that verse as written, there's no point in further discussion.
- Jul 11, 2015
- 8,804
- 1,786
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Jul 11, 2015
- 8,804
- 1,786
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
A gap not being mentioned is not no gap. Rev 20 gives us the time gap between the two resurrections. Daniel 12 does not say the two resurrections happen at the same time. First you would need to admit there are two separate resurrects that all related passages mention, then the gap of time inbetween them dealt with at another time.
There are two resurrections mentioned in all these passages:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest of the dead have to wait for their resurrection:
The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation
First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"
We're in agreement on two resurrection groups — the just, the unjust. Where we disagree is what "the first resurrection" means. You take it as ordinal — slot one in a numbered sequence, with a second one following later. My argument is that it's a name. "The first resurrection" is a title for the resurrection of the just, the way "the resurrection of damnation" is a title for the unjust. Neither one is a calendar position.
Now take the three passages you cited, because each one describes a single event:
Acts 24:15 — "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Singular. One resurrection containing two classes. Paul could have written "resurrections" and did not.
John 5:28–29 — "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth." One hour. One voice. All the dead in the graves. Then, and only then, two destinations. The division Jesus draws is in where they go, not when they rise.
Daniel 12:2 — "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." One verb of awakening governing the whole group, then "some… some." Again: one event, two outcomes.
That's the pattern in all three. The two-ness is never in the rising. It's always in what follows the rising — life or damnation, just or unjust. "Resurrection of life" and "resurrection of damnation" are names for outcomes, not slots on a calendar. And that's exactly how "the first resurrection" reads: a name for the company of the just, not the first entry in a numbered series.
So all three of the passages you brought forward cut against the reading you're putting on Revelation 20. You cited them as support for a two-stage sequence, but each one describes a single rising with two outcomes. Revelation 20 has to be read alongside them, not against them.
You haven't answered my question. You said that man is NOT born again when they believe. So, the question I asked again:
If man is not born again when they believe why does John tell us we must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God? (see Jo 3)
There is no question about how a person is born again. We both know that man is born again when they hear the Word of God (gospel) and believe in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Why are you denying that believing in Christ is to be born again? It matters because Christ tells us that when we believe we have been born again, and both see (understand) and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven. Our entrance into the Kingdom of God is not through physical flesh because the Kingdom of God is in heaven and that is the spiritual realm of God.
It is in this life, before we die that believers through new birth are with Christ spiritually in the Kingdom of God in heaven. The spiritual life we possess through the power of God in us is forever, and though our body of flesh will die, the spiritual body of Christ already possessing heaven shall never die, but will abide with Christ forever now in heaven, and when Christ comes again, we will be with Christ in immortal/incorruptible physical flesh on the new earth.
That is why Paul in 1Cor 15 tells us that when our natural body dies, our body returns to dust, but we as spiritual body ascend up into the Kingdom of God in heaven. Because we are both natural body and spiritual body the moment we believe and have been born again!
"If man is not born again when they believe why does John tell us we must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God? "
Because it's true. The kingdom of heaven is Heavenly Jerusalem, not heaven where God is. It's the place where all believers should be living right now but they can't see that kingdom, they don't know it exists right now.
How do you prove that Daniel is writing of a bodily resurrection when he writes that many of the dead "shall awake" during this time he writes will be "a time of trouble"? Do you believe this passage from Matthew 27 that says "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose" is fulfillment of Daniel's prophesy?
Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
How can believers know the Kingdom of God exists since they cannot physically see it?
The Kingdom of heaven is the Kingdom of God. Yes, it is where heavenly Jerusalem is now spiritually found both above and within believers and being completed as the gospel is proclaimed through the power of the holy Spirit and the realm/dwelling place of God.
Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Daniel's subject is The Resurrection — the event in which ALL who sleep in the dust are raised and judged, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. That is the thing being spoken of.
But notice what Daniel actually says. He does not say ALL who sleep in the dust awake. He says MANY. That word is deliberate, and it is doing different work than the subject itself. The awaking of many is not The Resurrection — it is the marker that The Resurrection has come. Daniel is giving us the when.
So the two things sit side by side in the verse:
The Resurrection — all who sleep in the dust raised and judged, life or contempt.
The timing — many awake, and among those, some to life and some to contempt. This is what happened at the cross and resurrection of Christ.
So the many awaking tells you the hour has struck — The cross. The two destinies tell you what hour it is — The Resurrection.
- Jul 11, 2015
- 8,804
- 1,786
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
That's because that is what is shown in Rev 20. First ressurect also is linguistically related to the "dead in Christ RISE FIRST".
That's the position of Premill. Amill argues there is a single resurrection of all.
That's wrong. The just are always in the first group resurrection, in every passage that exist about it. You accept there are two resurrections so naturally the first group to resurrect is the first resurrection.
You just described two events but now have reverted to one event. You were correct before but wrong now. Listen to yourself, "We're in agreement on two resurrection groups — the just, the unjust. "
It can be written in the singular: There shall be a resurrection of the dead, Lazarus first and later Jesus. Two separate resurrections.
Every example has the just or righteous first. Only Rev 20 provides the time inbetween the two groups resurrecting. The very fact that one group resurrects before the other shows a gap of some amount. Believe one second separates the two resurrections if you wish. At least that is closer to the truth than this one event idea.
I also noticed you didn't quote John fully. Likely because he uses the word resurrection twice, one for each group:
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation
Two resurrections. Is that why you didn't quote that part? It clearly disproves the one resurrection theory. This is one way to know if a doctrine is valid or not, by how it must ignore parts that don't fit.
Two events, two groups, the just first, the unjust afterward.
None show one rising with two outcomes. They show TWO RISINGS, with the righteous always first. None speak of what time happens between except Rev 20. All together, they show the just rising first (first resurrection) and over a thousand years later (the rest of the dead lived not until...) is the second resurrection of the unjust.
Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
He did not say the resurrection of the just and unjust. He said only the just. Again, this is evidence of two separate resurrections. The resurrection of the just is only of the just, no one else.
What we learn from these verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.
We also see here that the saved/righteous are resurrected first, and at some time later the unsaved are resurrected and judged.
What these verses do not tell us is how much time is inbetween the two. For that we have to go to Revelation 20 where Christ tells John there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". There we have the dead separated into two groups. One who are saved and will be resurrected and judged first, like Dan 12:2 and Joh 5:29 show, and the other group that has to wait until the thousand years are finished before they are resurrected and judged.
This is Premill through and through.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jesus says the hour NOW IS, right then, when dead people are hearing his voice and coming to life.
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jesus says marvel not at this (living dead people coming to life) and goes to further explain the “raising of the dead” by saying the same thing is about to happen to those that are in the grave.
When Jesus said “the hour” is coming, he is talking about the ninth where he “cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
The complete resurrection is laid out in simple easy to understand terms in John 5:25-29. Everything a person needs to know about the resurrection is right there.
- Jul 11, 2015
- 8,804
- 1,786
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
This verse is speaking of the future because it is not "now is"....plus the dead coming from graves makes this about a physical resurrection.
He was not talking about a specific hour when he was about to die. He is speaking of hour as a time when it will happen. The Greek word can mean various things. There is an hour/time when ppl graduate high school but not all graduate on the same day.
That's called isolating a passage which makes it easier to interpret incorrectly. When you use ALL PASSAGES about the topic, we find two separate resurrections on separate days, a thousand years apart.
It clearly says “now is” in John 5:25 so I don’t understand your argument on this. Are you saying “now is” doesn’t mean right then?
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
- Jul 11, 2015
- 8,804
- 1,786
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
I was speaking about the other verse. The one that speaks of a future resurrection that does not use the words "now is".
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Daniel's prophesy was to be fulfilled at the time when Michael, the great Prince would stand up for the children of Daniel's people. Although there will be a bodily resurrection for all who are in the graves at the end of this time, which is the end of this age, the resurrection is NOT what Daniel is showing us in this passage.
Yes, that's how we might know that Daniel is not writing about the resurrection that shall be in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.
This is not "the marker that The Resurrection has come" for all who are in the graves. There was only ONE resurrection at that time, the bodily resurrection of Christ. Christ's resurrection proved to all the world that He was the Son of God, and that death through Him had been defeated for those who believe. Since none of the MANY bodies that came out of the graves after Christ's resurrection were resurrected in physical flesh, this is proof the resurrection that is coming was not what Daniel meant when he writes many of them who had died were awakened as though from sleep.
This is not proving the resurrection had come, rather it proves the Kingdom of God through Christ has come, and now, since He is resurrected from the dead, whosoever lives and believes in Him need not fear death. No man could have entrance into the Kingdom of God in heaven until after Christ came to make atonement for sin, and to defeat death. This is what Daniel's prophesy is showing us.
The many who had died and were awakened were faithful Old Covenant saints who had died in faith before the advent of Christ. They did awake as though from sleeping, not physically but as the spiritual body of Christ. And before ascending to heaven Christ first descended down into the graves to set those captives of the grave free, taking them spiritually alive or as living souls with Him to heaven. Since Christ defeated death the gates of heaven were opened so that now all who physically die in faith go as spiritual body to heaven where they/we shall be until the seventh/last trumpet sounds.
While many were spiritually free from the grave, some shall also be awakened to shame and everlasting contempt. But those awakened to shame and everlasting contempt will be bodily resurrected to life again only to stand before the great white throne judgment of God to give account to all that is found written in the books and the book of life. Their shame and everlasting contempt wait for the hour coming when all who are in the graves shall be bodily resurrected to immortal/incorruptible life or judgment and condemnation.
This is NOT what happened at the cross. Because at the cross the only resurrection was the resurrection of Christ.
The many awakened three days after the cross went to the Kingdom of God in heaven spiritual body or living souls without human form. The final destiny for all of mankind shall not come until the hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds that time given this earth wherein man might be saved has ended.
So what is John 5:25 talking about, if it is not the resurrection? Who are the dead in that verse that were hearing his voice at that exact time?
Similar threads
