Mount Zion in Jerusalem

[guysmith]

Mount Zion in Jerusalem


Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.


Isaiah 4: 2 In
that day the Branch of the Lord
will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and
glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion,
who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the
living in Jerusalem. 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the
women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit[a] of judgment
and a spirit[b] of fire. 5 Then
the Lord will create over all of
Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow
of flaming fire by night; over everything the glory[c] will be a
canopy. 6 It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the
day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.


Isaiah 31:4 This is what the Lord says to me: “As a lion growls, a great lion over
its prey— and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against it,
it is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor— so the Lord Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.


Isaiah
35: 9 No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be
found there. But only the redeemed will walk there,
10 and those the Lord has rescued will return.
They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting
joy will crown their heads Gladness and
joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.


Jeremiah 4: 5 “Announce
in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say: ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’ Cry
aloud and say: ‘Gather
together! Let us flee to the fortified cities! 6 Raise
the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without
delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”


Joel 3:16
The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will
tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his
people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.


Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and
there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name
written on their foreheads.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You forgot a very important one. Mount Zion is spiritual, not earthly. Notice the present tense.

But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to tens of thousands of angels, to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous [people] made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Abel’s [does]. Hebrews 12:22-24

 

[afaithfulone4u]

You forgot a very important one. Mount Zion is spiritual, not earthly. Notice the present tense.

But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to tens of thousands of angels, to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous [people] made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Abel’s [does]. Hebrews 12:22-24

Spiritual Jerusalem is the inheritors not those born of the flesh.

Mount Zion in Jerusalem


Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Isaiah 4: 2 In
that day the Branch of the Lord
will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and
glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion,
who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the
living in Jerusalem. 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the
women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit[a] of judgment
and a spirit[b] of fire. 5 Then
the Lord will create over all of
Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow
of flaming fire by night; over everything the glory[c] will be a
canopy. 6 It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the
day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.


Isaiah 31:4 This is what the Lord says to me: “As a lion growls, a great lion over
its prey— and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against it,
it is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor— so the Lord Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.


Isaiah
35: 9 No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be
found there. But only the redeemed will walk there,
10 and those the Lord has rescued will return.
They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting
joy will crown their heads Gladness and
joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.


Jeremiah 4: 5 “Announce
in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say: ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’ Cry
aloud and say: ‘Gather
together! Let us flee to the fortified cities! 6 Raise
the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without
delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”


Joel 3:16
The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will
tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his
people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.


Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and
there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name
written on their foreheads.

You see the truth guysmith

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Spiritual Jerusalem is the inheritors not those born of the flesh.

Who are the inheritors and who are those born of the flesh?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

You forgot a very important one. Mount Zion is spiritual, not earthly. Notice the present tense.

But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to tens of thousands of angels, to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous [people] made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Abel’s [does]. Hebrews 12:22-24

And, once again, you take a hard left into non-reality.

Har Tsiown (Mount Zion) is a LITERAL MOUNTAIN in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el. You can go there TODAY! It's not "spiritual" (THERE'S THAT WORD AGAIN!!!!); IT IS REAL!!! Hebrews 12:22-24 is talking about a substitute mountain/city that ISN'T HERE, yet!

I know this is going to be hard for you, but you really need to check out the Greek for yourself. The mountain and the city are one and the same in Hebrews 12:22, and it is talking about the New Jerusalem, not the current Har Tsiown nor is it talking about during the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign!

I know you have a hard time with this, but even if the Lord returned tomorrow, the New Jerusalem is yet a THOUSAND YEARS OFF IN THE FUTURE!

I've done a study on the New Jerusalem for years now, and there are many reasons for understanding that it is both a literal, tangible city consisting of physical substances, just as any other city, and it is a HUGE city that lands upon the New Earth after the New Earth has been re-created. The city is said to be "twelve thousand furlongs" long, wide, and high, and a conservative estimate is that twelve thousand furlongs is about 1,500 miles (with each "furlong" or Greek "stadios" being 660 feet, based on the Roman "stadium")! Thus, the city MUST be pyramidal in shape, and as such, it will look very much like a HUGE mountain! Indeed, it will significantly DWARF Mount Everest, which is only about 5.5 miles high!

I also find enough evidence to suggest that this three-dimensional city will have twelve foundations, each of which is a fundamental, foundational LEVEL to the city, so that the entire city is encased in "jasper" or "iaspis," the "blood" of the "bloodstone" (NOT "diamond" which can burn, being pure carbon, regardless the value mankind places on diamond)! One cannot, therefore, enter the city without going through the "blood." (The first foundation is "jasper" as are the four walls, meeting to a single point at its pinnacle, the capstone or the "cornerstone" or the "head stone of the corner," where the Throne will be.

Since, it is "the glory of God (that) did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof" (Rev. 21:23, KJV), such a scenario gives new meaning to such passages as Isaiah 24:23:

Isaiah 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded (mixed up in its phases), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously (brightly).
KJV

This is not some scene from "Heaven"; it is a literal scene from the future of this re-made earth, the New Earth! Please stop using the word "spiritual" if you're not going to use it correctly.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

You forgot a very important one. Mount Zion is spiritual, not earthly. Notice the present tense.

But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to tens of thousands of angels, to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous [people] made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Abel’s [does]. Hebrews 12:22-24

I have been there ...... it's better than you can imagine

But we must keep in mind the earthly Mount Zion still plays a part also .... so dont write it off completely

And remember .... the city of God (New jerusalem) comes down here eventually.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And, once again, you take a hard left into non-reality.

Har Tsiown (Mount Zion) is a LITERAL MOUNTAIN in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el. You can go there TODAY! It's not "spiritual" (THERE'S THAT WORD AGAIN!!!!); IT IS REAL!!! Hebrews 12:22-24 is talking about a substitute mountain/city that ISN'T HERE, yet!

I know this is going to be hard for you, but you really need to check out the Greek for yourself. The mountain and the city are one and the same in Hebrews 12:22, and it is talking about the New Jerusalem, not the current Har Tsiown nor is it talking about during the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign!

I don't have a hard time with anything you say. I just shake my head in disbelief that you can be so spiritually blind, yet still think you see. You are the one who has a problem with what the bible says - you have come to Mount Zion, not you will come to Mount Zion.

And again you're showing your confusion over the terms literal and natural. Literal means real, natural simply means natural. The Zion on earth is natural, the Zion above is spiritual in nature, and per Hebrews is the literal, or real, one that our spirits currently reside (we who are in Christ). The Zion you think is real is a merely a shadow of the greater reality. It's significance passed away long ago.

 

[Episkopos]

Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.


And, once again, you take a hard left into non-reality.

Har Tsiown (Mount Zion) is a LITERAL MOUNTAIN in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el. You can go there TODAY! It's not "spiritual" (THERE'S THAT WORD AGAIN!!!!); IT IS REAL!!! Hebrews 12:22-24 is talking about a substitute mountain/city that ISN'T HERE, yet!

I know this is going to be hard for you, but you really need to check out the Greek for yourself. The mountain and the city are one and the same in Hebrews 12:22, and it is talking about the New Jerusalem, not the current Har Tsiown nor is it talking about during the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign!

I know you have a hard time with this, but even if the Lord returned tomorrow, the New Jerusalem is yet a THOUSAND YEARS OFF IN THE FUTURE!

I've done a study on the New Jerusalem for years now, and there are many reasons for understanding that it is both a literal, tangible city consisting of physical substances, just as any other city, and it is a HUGE city that lands upon the New Earth after the New Earth has been re-created. The city is said to be "twelve thousand furlongs" long, wide, and high, and a conservative estimate is that twelve thousand furlongs is about 1,500 miles (with each "furlong" or Greek "stadios" being 660 feet, based on the Roman "stadium")! Thus, the city MUST be pyramidal in shape, and as such, it will look very much like a HUGE mountain! Indeed, it will significantly DWARF Mount Everest, which is only about 5.5 miles high!

I also find enough evidence to suggest that this three-dimensional city will have twelve foundations, each of which is a fundamental, foundational LEVEL to the city, so that the entire city is encased in "jasper" or "iaspis," the "blood" of the "bloodstone" (NOT "diamond" which can burn, being pure carbon, regardless the value mankind places on diamond)! One cannot, therefore, enter the city without going through the "blood." (The first foundation is "jasper" as are the four walls, meeting to a single point at its pinnacle, the capstone or the "cornerstone" or the "head stone of the corner," where the Throne will be.

Since, it is "the glory of God (that) did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof" (Rev. 21:23, KJV), such a scenario gives new meaning to such passages as Isaiah 24:23:

Isaiah 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded (mixed up in its phases), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously (brightly).
KJV

This is not some scene from "Heaven"; it is a literal scene from the future of this re-made earth, the New Earth! Please stop using the word "spiritual" if you're not going to use it correctly

It's real as in it's temporal. Do you think spiritual things are fantasy? Or are they eternal? Does something eternal make it less "real" than something temporal?

Temporal reality is based on facts...eternal reality is based on truth.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

I don't have a hard time with anything you say. I just shake my head in disbelief that you can be so spiritually blind, yet still think you see. You are the one who has a problem with what the bible says - you have come to Mount Zion, not you will come to Mount Zion.

You are blinded by the English of that passage in the version you are using. Consider the word that was so translated, the Greek word "proseleeluthate" the third-person, plural of "proserchomai," which means "to come near" or "to approach." "Proseleeluthate" means "you are coming to" or "you are coming toward" or "you are coming near" or "you are approaching." It does NOT mean "you have come!"

And again you're showing your confusion over the terms literal and natural. Literal means real, natural simply means natural. The Zion on earth is natural, the Zion above is spiritual in nature, and per Hebrews is the literal, or real, one that our spirits currently reside (we who are in Christ). The Zion you think is real is a merely a shadow of the greater reality. It's significance passed away long ago.

Actually, "literal" means to accept the "letter" of what you are reading. BOTH Tsiowns are natural, as you mean the word, and again, you are demonstrating that you don't know the meaning of the word "spiritual."

Here's the Greek of Hebrews 12:22-24:

Hebrews: 12:22-24
22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei
23 kai ekkleesia proototokoon apogegrammenoon en ouranois kai kritee Theoo pantoon kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon
24 kai diatheekees news mesitee Ieesou kai haimati rantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Abel.

Greek New Testament

22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = you-are-coming-toward
Sioon = Zion (Tsiown)
orei = mountain
kai = and
polei = city
Theou = of-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Jerusalem (Yerushalayim)
epouranioo, = in-above-the-sky
kai = and
muriasin = a-myriad
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
paneegurei = to-a-mass-meeting
23 kai = 23 and
ekkleesia = a-called-out-(group)
proototokoon = of-firstborn
apogegrammenoon = who-are-written-off
en = in
ouranois = (the)-sky
kai = and
kritee Judge
Theoo = to-God
pantoon = of-all
kai = and
pneumasi =to-spirits
dikaioon = of-righteous-ones
teteleioomenoon = made-complete
24 kai = 24 and
diatheekees = covenant
neas = new
mesitee =mediator
Ieesou = to-Jesus (to-Yeshua`)
kai = and
haimati = to-blood
rantismou = of-sprinkling
kreitton = stronger/better/nobler
lalounti = that-speaks
para = near
ton = of-the
Abel. = Abel (Hevel).

22 But you-are-coming-toward Zion (Tsiown) mountain and city of-God living, Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in-above-the-sky and a-myriad of-messengers, to-a-mass-meeting
23 and a-called-out-(group) of-firstborn who-are-written-off in (the)-sky and Judge to-God of-all and to-spirits of-righteous-ones made-complete
24 and covenant of-(the)-new mediator to-Jesus (to-Yeshua`) and to-blood of-sprinkling stronger/better/nobler that-speaks near of-the Abel (Hevel).

22 But you-are-coming-toward Zion (Tsiown), mountain and city of (the) living God, Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in above-the-sky and a-myriad of-messengers, to-a-mass-meeting
23 and a-called-out-(group) of-firstborn who-are-listed in (the)-sky and to-God Judge of-all and to-spirits of-righteous-ones made-complete
24 and mediator of (the) new covenant Jesus (Yeshua`) and to-blood of-sprinkling that-speaks stronger/better/nobler near of Abel (Hevel).

BE CAREFUL which English version you use, and ALWAYS check the version against the Greek (and Hebrew or Aramaic).

And, by the way, in these three verses, where is the word "spiritual?"

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I don't have a hard time with anything you say. I just shake my head in disbelief that you can be so spiritually blind, yet still think you see. You are the one who has a problem with what the bible says - you have come to Mount Zion, not you will come to Mount Zion.

And again you're showing your confusion over the terms literal and natural. Literal means real, natural simply means natural. The Zion on earth is natural, the Zion above is spiritual in nature, and per Hebrews is the literal, or real, one that our spirits currently reside (we who are in Christ). The Zion you think is real is a merely a shadow of the greater reality. It's significance passed away long ago.

You have to keep in mind that the author of Hebrews is (was) a religious observant Jew who is now a believer in Messiah ..... and he is writing the book of Hebrews to observant religious Jews who have either come to Christ .... or are contemplating it.

And remember ch12 is discussing the kingdom ...... Jews were expecting an immediate earthly kingdom ..... and the author of Hebrews is telling them that at this point it is a heavenly kingdom (Heavenly Zion) (not earthly Zion)

Hebrews 12:28 .... 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken

Eventually this "New Kingdom" comes down here in the future ..... but we are not at that point quite yet ...... you are correct though .... it is present tense ... you have come to Mount Zion, (the heavenly city of God)

The book of Hebrews is rich in it's teachings .... but the key to understanding it properly is to be (or have been) a religious Jew who needed the new covenant carefully explained to them in light of the old covenant they were accustomed to , and loyal to.

Can you imagine being a life long observant religious Jew .... then all of a sudden try to figure out all this "Jesus stuff" in a short period of time .... ??? talk about an abrupt change of religion !!!!

The book of Hebrews lays out the similarities between the OT and the NT and reconciles the fulfillment of the OT with the NT in order to comfort the recipients of the book of Hebrews that this "abrupt change of religion " was all part of God's plan from the start.

Best wishes reading Hebrews ..... just remember it is written to messianic Jews .... and most of us are gentile Christians .... once we sort that out , it is smooth reading ..... otherwise Hebrews becomes full of mind-benders for the (gentile) believer

Bottom line ..... Jews were expecting Messiah to establish an earthly kingdom and he did not (yet)
Bottom line ..... They were partly correct ... it is just that Jesus is preparing it in heaven first ... then it comes down here later

Bottom line ..... today (unbelieving) Jews still expect Messiah will establish an earthly kingdom when he arrives
Bottom line .... they are also correct .... but when Messiah does establish his earthly kingdom ... He happens to look exactly like Jesus Christ ....... oops !!!

At that time the jews mourn the one whom they pierced.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are blinded by the English of that passage in the version you are using. Consider the word that was so translated, the Greek word "proseleeluthate" the third-person, plural of "proserchomai," which means "to come near" or "to approach." "Proseleeluthate" means "you are coming to" or "you are coming toward" or "you are coming near" or "you are approaching." It does NOT mean "you have come!"

Actually, "literal" means to accept the "letter" of what you are reading. BOTH Tsiowns are natural, as you mean the word, and again, you are demonstrating that you don't know the meaning of the word "spiritual."

BE CAREFUL which English version you use, and ALWAYS check the version against the Greek (and Hebrew or Aramaic).

The verb is intransitive, active, 2nd person, perfect plural. Perfect tense means the action is complete and continuing. Indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's perspective. The translation 'you have come to' or 'you have come to and are continuing to come to' Mt Zion is accurate.

I use an interlinear bible. I don't use any translation.

Literal means to take the intended meaning of the author, not the letter or what you want to read into a passage.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

The verb is intransitive, active, 2nd person, perfect plural. Perfect tense means the action is complete and continuing. Indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's perspective. The translation 'you have come to' or 'you have come to and are continuing to come to' Mt Zion is accurate.

I use an interlinear bible. I don't use any translation.

Literal means to take the intended meaning of the author, not the letter or what you want to read into a passage.

I don't have a problem with the verb being "intransitive, perfect and 2nd person plural," but I DO have a problem with you NOT recognizing the VERB ITSELF! It is the verb proseleeluthate," a form of "proserchomai" (Strong's NT:4334), a combination verb formed by adding the preposition "pros" (NT:4314), meaning "to" or "toward," with "erchomai" (NT:2064), meaning "to go" or "to come" or "to bring." Thus, the verb itself contains a dimension that is not being considered in the mere discussion of the tenses! If he meant that you were just "coming" to the New Jerusalem as an arrival, erchomai would have sufficed, but he was talking about the APPROACH to the New Jerusalem, hence PROS-erchomai! The APPROACH is "complete and continuing," not the ARRIVAL! We are ON THE WAY!

 

[Cooter]

Mount Zion in Jerusalem
Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Isaiah 4: 2 In
that day the Branch of the Lord
will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and
glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion,
who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the
living in Jerusalem. 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the
women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit[a] of judgment
and a spirit[b] of fire. 5 Then
the Lord will create over all of
Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow
of flaming fire by night; over everything the glory[c] will be a
canopy. 6 It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the
day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.
Isaiah 31:4 This is what the Lord says to me: “As a lion growls, a great lion over
its prey— and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against it,
it is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor— so the Lord Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.
Isaiah
35: 9 No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be
found there. But only the redeemed will walk there,
10 and those the Lord has rescued will return.
They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting
joy will crown their heads Gladness and
joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.
Jeremiah 4: 5 “Announce
in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say: ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’ Cry
aloud and say: ‘Gather
together! Let us flee to the fortified cities! 6 Raise
the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without
delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”
Joel 3:16
The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will
tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his
people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and
there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name
written on their foreheads.

The original Mount Zion does not exist today; and neither did it in the day of Jesus and the disciples. Mount zion was named by the Jebuzites in their day and Zion means "Fortress." David conquered this fortress; and in his day it was called the "City of David." It had very steep walls on three sides, so it was a natural fortress; and you only had to defend the northern wall. The Syrians captured this fortress or Zion and it took 20 years for the Jews to drive them out of it. This was in the time of Simon the Hasmonian - about 135BC. He convinced the people that this fortress had to be destrpyed. And so for the next three years the original city of David was cut down to bedrock. After this it was known as "the lower city." They built a new fortress called the Baris in order to defend the Temple and the city of Jerusalem. Herod rebuilt and enlarged the Baris and renamed it "Fortress Antonia" after his friend Mark Anthony. This structure still stands in Jerusalem - except today they call it the Temple Mount. Not true.

I think the name Zion transferred to Mount Moriah where the temple was located. In 70AD the Temple and the 450 foot tower that it was built on was totally destroyed by the Romans - just like Jesus said it would be. I read that the Mount of Olives was later called Mount Zion because that is where Jesus was crucified. Today when they refer to "The City of David" they are talking about the area to the west of the temple where they had moved some of the main buildings before the mountain was cut down. Actualy David never set foot into the present city of David. Confusing isn't it?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

When Jesus returns doesn't he plant his feet on Mount Zion ?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Cooter.

The original Mount Zion does not exist today; and neither did it in the day of Jesus and the disciples. Mount zion was named by the Jebuzites in their day and Zion means "Fortress." David conquered this fortress; and in his day it was called the "City of David." It had very steep walls on three sides, so it was a natural fortress; and you only had to defend the northern wall. The Syrians captured this fortress or Zion and it took 20 years for the Jews to drive them out of it. This was in the time of Simon the Hasmonian - about 135BC. He convinced the people that this fortress had to be destrpyed. And so for the next three years the original city of David was cut down to bedrock. After this it was known as "the lower city." They built a new fortress called the Baris in order to defend the Temple and the city of Jerusalem. Herod rebuilt and enlarged the Baris and renamed it "Fortress Antonia" after his friend Mark Anthony. This structure still stands in Jerusalem - except today they call it the Temple Mount. Not true.

I think the name Zion transferred to Mount Moriah where the temple was located. In 70AD the Temple and the 450 foot tower that it was built on was totally destroyed by the Romans - just like Jesus said it would be. I read that the Mount of Olives was later called Mount Zion because that is where Jesus was crucified. Today when they refer to "The City of David" they are talking about the area to the west of the temple where they had moved some of the main buildings before the mountain was cut down. Actualy David never set foot into the present city of David. Confusing isn't it?

Confusing, yes; your words are somewhat confusing. The word "tsiyown" or "tsiyuwn" means "desert" or "wasteland" and does NOT mean "fortress." The Hebrew word for "fortress" is "matsuwd." You're slightly misreading the wording of 2 Sh'mu'el 5:7

2 Sh'mu'el 5:7
7 Vayilkod Daavid eet mtsudat Tsiyown hiy' `iyr Daavid:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

7 Vayilkod = 7 And-conquered
Daavid = David
eet = (direct object follows)
mtsudat = fortress
Tsiyown = of-Zion
hiy' = which (is)
`iyr = city
Daavid: = of-David.

This verse is not NAMING the fortress "Zion"; David conquered the fortress UPON Mount Zion! If the fortress had a name at all, it might have been named after the mountain upon which it was sitting, but the mountain was before the fortress! It's the old "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" dilemma.



Shalom, Arnie Manitoba.

When Jesus returns doesn't he plant his feet on Mount Zion ?

No, you're mixing up Mount Zion with the Mount of Olives. Har Tsiown is a different peak than Har haZeitiym.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Shalom, Arnie Manitoba.


No, you're mixing up Mount Zion with the Mount of Olives. Har Tsiown is a different peak than Har haZeitiym.

Ahh yes , you are right , thanks

 

[guysmith]

Welcome Cooter,

Thanks for the insight.

 

[guysmith]

The topic is Mount Zion in Jerusalem

1. Throughout the prophetic scriptures, the prophets suggest that MOUNT ZION in Jerusalem will be the place-of-safety for a pocket of believers at Christ's advent.
2. Christ instructed end-time believer to:Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND before the Son of man. Luke 21:36

If you use a word search and type in MOUNT ZION & STAND you come up with one verse, in particular, which identifies a pocket of believers found standing with Christ, on Mount Zion, at His advent.


Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Heavenly Jerusalem THE CITY is the Bride and is the mother of spiritual Israel/Jacob of the children of God whom are being tried and purified and will be heirs of the world. Natural Jerusalem is captive to sin being bondage to their flesh for they have not received the Spirit who is our helper to overcome their fleshly lusts, you must believe & receive Christ before you can receive the Spirit having a Right heart attitude towards God by repentance and the desire to be changed. Cross-ing over from death unto life!

Gal 4:22-5:1
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is{MOTHER OF THOSE ONLY BORN OF THE FLESH}, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem{MOTHER OF THOSE REBORN OF THE SPIRIT} which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son{BRING THEM OUT OF THE COVENANT OF DOOM INTO THE COVENANT OF LIFE}: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV
Heb 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem{THE BRIDE, OUR MOTHER}, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV
1 Peter 2:6-10
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV
Rev 14:1-5
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
KJV
Rev 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
KJV

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, afaithfulone4u.

Heavenly Jerusalem THE CITY is the Bride and is the mother of spiritual Israel/Jacob of the children of God whom are being tried and purified and will be heirs of the world. Natural Jerusalem is captive to sin being bondage to their flesh for they have not received the Spirit who is our helper to overcome their fleshly lusts, you must believe & receive Christ before you can receive the Spirit having a Right heart attitude towards God by repentance and the desire to be changed. Cross-ing over from death unto life!

Gal 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is{MOTHER OF THOSE ONLY BORN OF THE FLESH}, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem{MOTHER OF THOSE REBORN OF THE SPIRIT} which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son{BRING THEM OUT OF THE COVENANT OF DOOM INTO THE COVENANT OF LIFE}: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

Heb 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem{THE BRIDE, OUR MOTHER}, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV

1 Peter 2:6-10
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

Rev 14:1-5
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
KJV

Rev 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
KJV

While the bride is indeed the city New Jerusalem, it is NOT the "the mother of spiritual Israel/Jacob of the children of God whom are being tried and purified and will be heirs of the world!" That's a fabrication based more on one's theology than upon Scripture. Let's get a better look at Galatians 4:22-31, an HONEST look:

Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

And, let's check this translation against the Greek:

Pros Galatas 4:22-31
22 Gegraptai gar hoti Abraam duo huious eschen, hena ke tees paidiskees kai hena ek tees eleutheras.
23 All' ho men ek tees paidiskees kata sarka gegenneetai, ho de ek tees eleutheras di' epaggelias.
24 Hatina estin alleegoroumena hautai gar eisin duo diatheekai, mia men apo orous Sina eis douleian gennoosa, heetis estin Hagar.
25 To de Hagar Sina oros estin en tee Arabia; sustoichei de tee nun Ierousaleem, douleuei gar meta toon teknoon autees.
26 Hee de anoo Ierousaleem eleuthera estin, heetis estin meeteer heemoon;
27 gegraptai gar, "Eufrantheeti, steira hee ou tiktousa, rheexon kai boeeson, hee ouk oodinousa; hoti polla ta tekna tees ereemou mallon ee tees echousees ton andra."
28 Humeis de, adelfoi, kata Isaak epaggelias tekna este.
29 All' hooper tote ho kata sark a genneetheis ediooken ton kata pneuma, houtoos kai nun.
30 Alla ti legei hee grafee? "Ekbale teen paidiskeen kai ton huion autees; ou gar mee kleeronomeesei ho huios tees paidiskees meta tou huiou tees eleutheras."
31 Dio, adelfoi, ouk esmen paidiskees tekna alla tees eleutheras.
The Greek New Testament


22 Gegraptai = 22 It-is-written
gar = for
hoti = that
Abraam = Avraham
duo = two
huious = sons
eschen, = held,
hena = one
ek = out-of
tees = the
paidiskees = slavegirl
kai = and
hena = one
ek = out-of
tees = the
eleutheras. = free-woman.
23 All' (Alla) = 23 But
ho = the-one
men = indeed
ek = out-of
tees = the
paidiskees = slavegirl
kata = according-to
sarka = flesh
gegenneetai, = was-procreated,
ho = the-one
de = but
ek = out-of
tees = the
eleutheras = free-woman
di' (dis) = through
epaggelias. = promise.
24 Hatina = 24 Which-things
estin = are
alleegoroumena = an-allegory;
hautai = these (feminine)
gar = for
eisin = are
duo = two
diatheekai, = covenants,
mia = one (feminine)
men = indeed
apo = away-from
orous = mount
Sina = Sinai
eis = into
douleian = slavery
gennoosa, = was-procreated,
heetis = which
estin = is
Hagar. = Hagar.
25 To = 25 This
de = but
Hagar = Hagar
Sina = Sinai
oros = mount
estin = is
en = in
tee = the
Arabia; = Arabian desert;
sustoichei = walks-orderly-together-with
de = but
tee = which
nun = now
Ierousaleem, = Yerushalayim/Jerusalem
douleuei = she-is-a-slave-to
gar = for
meta = with
toon = the
teknoon = children
autees. = of-her.
26 Hee = 26 Which
de = but
anoo = on-top
Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim/Jerusalem
eleuthera = free
estin, = is,
heetis = which
estin = is
meeteer = a=mother
heemoon; = of-us;
27 gegraptai = 27 it-is-written
gar, = for,
"Eufrantheeti, = "Be-glad,
steira = childless-one
hee = that-one-who
ou = not
tiktousa, = has-produced,
rheexon = burst-out
kai = and
boeeson, = shout,
hee = the-one-that
ouk = not
oodinousa; = has-labored
hoti = because
polla = many
ta = the
tekna = children
tees = of-the
ereemou = desolate
mallon = more
ee = or/than
tees = the-one
echousees = she-who-holds
ton = the
andra." = husband."
28 Humeis = 28 We
de, = but,
adelfoi, = brothers/siblings,
kata = according-to
Isaak = Yitschaq/Isaac
epaggelias = a-promise
tekna = children
este. = are.
29 All' (Alla) = 29 But
hoosper = like/as
tote = then
ho = the-one-who
kata = according-to
sarka = flesh
genneetheis = was-procreated
ediooken = picked-on
ton = the-one
kata = according-to
pneuma, = spirit,
houtoos = likewise
kai = also
nun. = now.
30 Alla = 30 But
ti = what
legei = says
hee = the
grafee? = writing?
"Ekbale = "Throw-out
teen = the
paidiskeen = slavegirl
kai = and
ton = the
huion =son
autees; = of-her;
ou = not (positively)
gar = for
mee = not (negatively)
kleeronomeesei = shall-be-heir
ho = the
huios = son
tees = of-the
paidiskees = slavegirl
meta = with
tou = the
huiou = son
tees = of-the
eleutheras." = free-woman.
31 Dio, = 31 Therefore,
adelfoi, = brothers/siblings,
ouk = not
esmen = we-are
paidiskees = of-the-slavegirl
tekna = children
alla = but
tees = of-the
eleutheras. = free-woman.

22 It-is-written for that Avraham two sons held, one out-of the slave-girl and one out-of the free-woman.
23 But the-one indeed out-of the slave-girl according-to flesh was-procreated, the-one but out-of the free-woman through promise.
24 Which-things are an-allegory; these for are two covenants, one indeed away-from mount Sinai into slavery was-procreated, which is Hagar.
25 This but Hagar Sinai mount is in the Arabian desert; corresponds-to but which now to-Yerushalayim/Jerusalem is-a-slave-to for with the children of-her.
26 Which but on-top Yerushalayim/Jerusalem free is, which is a-mother of-us;
27 it-is-written for, "Be-glad, childless-one that-one-who not has-produced, burst-out and shout, the-one-that not has-labored because many the children of-the desolate more or/than the-one she-who-holds the husband."
28 We but, brothers/siblings, according-to Yitschaq/Isaac a-promise children are.
29 But like/as then the-one-who according-to flesh was-procreated picked-on the-one according-to spirit, likewise also now.
30 But what says the writing? "Throw-out the slavegirl and the son of-her; not (positively) for not (negatively) shall-be-heir the son of-the slavegirl with the son of-the free-woman.
31 Therefore, brothers/siblings, not we-are of-the-slavegirl children but of-the free-woman.
22 For it is written that Abraham held two sons, one out of the slave-girl and one out of the free-woman.
23 But the one indeed was procreated out of the slave-girl according to flesh, but the one out of the free-woman through promise.
24 Which things are an allegory; for these women are two covenants, one indeed was born into slavery [taken] away from mount Sinai, which is Hagar.
25 But this Hagar is Mount Sinai in the Arabian desert; but which walks orderly together with the present Jerusalem for she is a slave to it with her children.
26 But that Jerusalem on-top is free, which is our mother;
27 for it is written, "Be glad, childless-one, that one who has not produced, burst out and shout, the one that has never been in labor, because many more [are] the children of the desolate than she who holds the husband."
28 But we, brothers, are children of Isaac according to a promise.
29 But like/as then the one who was procreated according to flesh picked on the one according to spirit, likewise also now.
30 But what says the writing? "Throw out the slave-girl and her son; for under no circumstances shall the son of the slave-girl be heir with the son of the free-woman."
31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave-girl but of-the free-woman.
This may be hard to accept, but there are only 2 of the 24 English versions of the Bible to which I have access that even come close to an accurate translation of verse 25! These are the KJV and the American Standard Version. All the others MESS IT UP! Here's the ASV:

Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.
23 Howbeit the (son) by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the (son) by the freewoman (is born) through promise.
24 Which things contain an allegory: for these (women) are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him (that was born) after the Spirit, so also it is now.
30 Howbeit what saith the scripture? Cast out the handmaid and her son: for the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman.
ASV


Why do they mess it up? Because they ALL say that it is JERUSALEM that is in bondage with her children when it is actually HAGAR that is in bondage with her children TO JERUSALEM! These versions show the prejudice that the translators have against the children of Isra'el!

The word "anoo" does NOT mean "above"; it means "on top!" When the covenant was given at Sinai, the children of Isra'el were NOT allowed to come up the mountain but had to stand around its base at the bottom. The ONLY ones allowed up the mountain were Moshe (Moses) and Y'hoshua` (Joshua)! The Greek word "epi" means "above." Thus, this is NOT talking about the New Jerusalem but the CURRENT Jerusalem that stands ON TOP OF HAR TSIOWN (MOUNT ZION)!

Also, it is important to understand that "Har Tsiown" is talking more about the MOUNTAIN RANGE than a single peak of a mountain!