My agnostic friend says: "I don't need it." - How would you respond?

[Lambano]

@Lambano ..digressing a bit for your understanding and for why I reacted so abruptly, the way I did in my post to you...

I really reacted to not just the lack of understanding amongst us of the critical definitions for this subject of the elect, it was when you suddenly dropped the bomb in your last 'context' that is not the subject here at all. And equating the chosen one as with the Jews, as the, or type of elect, was a little too much for me to let slip by. And then for you to add on its tail 'the thief in the night' that was really out there for me....just wanted to tell you where my head was...

Thank you for taking the time to explain your own context.

I come to the subject of "Election" as a wounded survivor of the unending Calvinist/Arminian internet flame wars. @St. SteVen comes at it from the point of view of a Universal Restorationist and a Deconstructionist. I wouldn't think he would accept the Reformed functional definition of "the Elect" as "those chosen for Salvation", since from the UR point of view, all will be saved in the end and that set is universal. So, I suspect his understanding is closer to the Deuteronomic view, but as noted in post #280 above, his views on perseverance have been historically (and logically necessarily?) more aligned with the Reformed view. (Steven, you don't mind if we talk about you behind your back, do you?) I'll let him speak for himself.

 

[Lambano]

"@St. SteVen comes at it from the point of view of a Universal Restorationist and a Deconstructionist."

So, remember the controversial Bush - Gore election in 2000 and the hanging chads and stuff in Florida? (If we'd stayed in Palm Beach County, my vote might've really counted for something that year.) Well, during all the recounts and hubbub on the nightly news and internet shouting matches and such, one of my Japanese vendors flew in for a business meeting and the first thing he asked me was what I thought about the "Presidential Erection".

(Mr. Clinton would still be in office until the inauguration, so my wife had a few choice thoughts on that subject.)

So, from a UR standpoint, who and what are "the Elect" we're talking about?

 

[Hillsage]

Matt 22:14 For  many  are  called, G2822  but  few  are chosen. G1588

G2822 κλητός klētos klay-tos'​

From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

​

G1588 ἐκλεκτός eklektos ek-lek-tos'​

From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

2Ti 2:20,21 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. :21 Therefore if anyone purges himself from these, he shall be a vessel to honor, sanctified and useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

[St. SteVen]

I come to the subject of "Election" as a wounded survivor of the unending Calvinist/Arminian internet flame wars. @St. SteVen comes at it from the point of view of a Universal Restorationist and a Deconstructionist. I wouldn't think he would accept the Reformed functional definition of "the Elect" as "those chosen for Salvation", since from the UR point of view, all will be saved in the end and that set is universal. So, I suspect his understanding is closer to the Deuteronomic view, but as noted in post #280 above, his views on perseverance have been historically (and logically necessarily?) more aligned with the Reformed view. (Steven, you don't mind if we talk about you behind your back, do you?) I'll let him speak for himself.

From the Universal Restorationist POV my reference to the Elect is those who have a renewed relationship with God before entering the afterlife. (each in turn)

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

Context.

That quote, "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" was pulled out of the Olivet discourse. This starts with "Jesus said to them: 'Watch out that no one deceives you.'" (verse 5), has "'So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time'" in the middle (verse 23), and ends with "What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’” in verse 37.

Context.

If you think you can't be deceived because you're one of God's chosen people (you know - like the Jews), you won't be on your guard in the hour the thief comes. And you're missing the whole point of what Jesus is trying to say.

The Elect do not have false confidence. They know that every aspect of their remaining on the right Way is by His Grace.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Friends as I woke this morning I thought of writing a piece on how to thrive in a wicked world.

To further pursue the topic and improve the tone, I will lay out, with Steve's permission, how I have concluded we handle increasing challenges both in the church and without.

This will help to properly explain my biblical position and how it is applied practically.

I am aware we all have different callings but basic principles hold for us all.

I will not debate UR as that is not the topic at hand.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree. @Carl Emerson claims that the Elect cannot even be tempted by deception. (of any kind)

[

Incorrect - they cannot fall to deception.

All are tempted - that is a different issue altogether.

 

[St. SteVen]

Friends as I woke this morning I thought of writing a piece on how to thrive in a wicked world.

To further pursue the topic and improve the tone, I will lay out, with Steve's permission, how I have concluded we handle increasing challenges both in the church and without.

You have my blessing, friend. Carry on.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK

At 13 I was born again - I knew my time had come, repented of sin and invited His full Lordship in my life.

Faith at that stage was like a thin fragile thread.

As I read the Bible I realised that He required total commitment and surrender. I was afraid of this and equated it to a total freakout - I was afraid of ending up as a ragged barefooted prophet in the streets - eventually to be carried away in a van by the whitecoats.

So I liberalised my faith and followed good principle but not Jesus day by day. (that was too scary)

From there my life went down hill - by 25 I was in the drug culture and ended up in a Psych ward and given ECT.

But God...

He is ever faithful and drew me back to Him, putting me back on the rails for a second chance.

He showed me that full surrender was not to be afraid of, because it simply meant yielding to His Godly order and not chaos.

His Word to me was to saturate myself with Scripture to form an inspired world view. So for 5 years in a stretch I read devotionally nothing but the Bible.

7 years of prayer and ministry and I was 'normal again'.

Onto topic - I watched a Mother duck and her young in the sea bobbling, staying close and safe, but one strayed back. There was an overwhelming feeling that He was going to show me something...

In a flash a seagull swooped down - right in front of my eyes - and pecked the duckling to bits.

He was saying to me - there is safety from spiritual attack being in the Body of Christ in fellowship and not to separate.

But I wondered how it could be safe when the members were imperfect and some not even born again.

Meantime I was attending a non-denominational Bible College and bonds formed with 'serious believers' who became life long friends and prayer partners.

I then realised that the 'invisible' Body of Christ was my real family. The visible churches have a mix of Wheat and Tares.

So who are the Elect?

I maintain they are the truely born again who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit as predicted by Ezekiel and Jeremiah, and promised by Jesus.

Paul stated that this indwelling would be our True teacher.

Taking the preached word without confirmation from the Spirit within and the leads to bondage.

Assessing what is truely of God in a deceptive age is a joint effort among the elect.

I was seriously deceived when out of fellowship with the elect.

So I maintain that the elect in fellowship will not be deceived in this age when anti-Christ spirits hog the media and stir up violence. Likewise when the unsaved infiltrate the church and assume positions of influence.

Our times are wicked - bond with true, born again believers. That is where the real Body of Christ is.

Lastly I have been called to serve in an imperfect visible church - He is working on a broad front.

p.s. I can give plenty of Scriptural support for my position but understanding where I come from seems best to lay a foundation of understanding.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I agree. @Carl Emerson claims that the Elect cannot even be tempted by deception. (of any kind)

Incorrect - they cannot fall to deception.

All are tempted - that is a different issue altogether.

To be clear, I never suggested that they would "fall".
Why would you think that the deceptions that we all live with equate to a "fall"?

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

They did with me - almost lost my life altogether...

Christian folks considered me beyond hope.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

My agnostic friend acknowledges that some people need something, like religion, to help them get along in life.
He considers himself to be in the group that doesn't need something, like religion, to help him get along in life.

I think this is his polite way of saying, crutches are fine for those who need them, but he doesn't need one.
Ironically, he walks using a cane. - LOL

Humor aside, how would you respond? Why do we need a relationship with God?
Or, more to the point, why does he need a relationship with God? Remember, he is agnostic,
so appeals to the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible have little bearing.

He was raised Lutheran, baptized and confirmed in the church.
Stopped going to church at some point. Married a Catholic woman that was also estranged from the church.
Which ended in a nasty divorce which nearly destroyed my friend. I have been an important support for him.
He is now remarried to a Protestant Christian who is also estranged from the church, but has a relationship with God.

/ cc: @ChristisGod @mailmandan @Lizbeth @quietthinker @amadeus @David in NJ @Hillsage @Lambano @Peterlag @marks @1stCenturyLady @St. SteVen

I'd leave it alone.

If God moves on them,they will believe it. Till then when they identify as an Agnostic they're telling you they doubt there is a god. But they're open to be proven wrong.

 

[Carl Emerson]

One more observation - many folks on forum seem to have a detailed understanding of the map but don't seem to be walking in The Way.

When you ask them about their personal walk the question is ignored.

I honestly think that evidence of His work through us is an evidence we should look for in assessing genuine faith. These are the folks I tend to listen to - not just the technically competent.

 

[The Learner]

scrolled through, I need to rest now