"My Lord and My God"

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belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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"My Lord and My God"
by Shmuel Playfair
[edited for easier reading]

One of the most popular proof texts used by Christians to support their deification of a human creature is found near the end of the gospel of John where we read, "And Thomas answered and said unto him, 'My Lord and my God!'". [John 20:28] What they do not understand is that Thomas addresses the resurrected Jesus, the son of Joseph, with titles of respect commonly used in the ancient Near East to refer to human kings and judges. He was *not* addressing Jesus as being the only immortal, invisible Creator, the Greater Than All, Aveenu, Malkaynu (our Father, our King). Rather, he was acknowledging Yeshua as his appointed Lord (Master) and as his representative Sovereign (i.e. Powerful Ruler = authorized Judge or anointed King).

In the Jewish milieu in which Thomas spoke, we often find that the title "Lord" was often used to address a human king. For example, we read, "YHVH ("adonai", the Creator) says to my lord ("adonee"), 'Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.' " [Ps.110:1] Since King David could be addressed as "Master" or "Lord", certainly one can address David's greater son, Jesus, as his "Master" (Adon). As Peter proclaimed later, "Therefore, let all the House of Israel know assuredly that the God (HaShem) made this Jesus whom you crucified both 'Lord' and 'Messiah'." [Acts 2:36] These words confirms that the only Almighty Creator made this crucified and resurrected human creature, Jesus, both "Lord" (Master) and "Messiah" (the Anointed King).

Also, in Jewish context the title "God" is sometimes used to address a human king. For example, in the Psalms we read, "Your throne, O 'god' (Eloheem), will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore, 'god', your God has anointed you with the oil of joy above your companions." [45:6-7] IOW, the God of this human "god" anointed this human creature to rule over his human companions. If the human judges and kings could be referred to as "gods" or "powerful rulers" ("eloheem"), it is no surprise that one who is considered to be the supreme human king or judge is given the same title.

It is possible that Thomas was using a grammatical construction called "hendiadys" where a single concept is expressed by two synonyms linked by the conjunction "and" [v']. For example, one might say "to look with eyes and envy" and mean "to look with envious eyes". Here are a couple of examples of "hendiadys" found in the Hebrew scriptures...in Genesis 1.2, "tohoo vavohoo" (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ) might best be translated as "a formless void" and in Job 40:10, "v'hod v'hadar" (וְה֖וֹד וְהָדָ֣ר) could be translated as "glorious splendor". So here in John 20:28, "my Lord (Master) and my God (i.e. Sovereign or Potentate)" are apparently two synonyms used to express a single concept which could be translated as "my sovereign Lord" or as "my lordly Potentate".

Since one might address human kings or judges as "Lord" and "God", it is not surprising to find one of Jesus' disciples addressing the resurrected son of David as his "powerful Master" or as his "lordly Potentate". OTOH, those who deify this human creature and claim that he was a second one of three different "co-equal" and "co-eternal" god-persons are forcing a different idolatrous meaning on this text which was not intended. Thomas' confession is an acknowledgement of Jesus as a human creature whom the Almighty Creator has given authority. It was not a recognition of a second god-person in a god-head (i.e. pantheon) of three co-equal, co-eternal members.
 

veteran

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"My Lord and My God"
by Shmuel Playfair
[edited for easier reading]

One of the most popular proof texts used by Christians to support their deification of a human creature is found near the end of the gospel of John where we read, "And Thomas answered and said unto him, 'My Lord and my God!'". [John 20:28] What they do not understand is that Thomas addresses the resurrected Jesus, the son of Joseph, with titles of respect commonly used in the ancient Near East to refer to human kings and judges. He was *not* addressing Jesus as being the only immortal, invisible Creator, the Greater Than All, Aveenu, Malkaynu (our Father, our King). Rather, he was acknowledging Yeshua as his appointed Lord (Master) and as his representative Sovereign (i.e. Powerful Ruler = authorized Judge or anointed King).

In the Jewish milieu in which Thomas spoke, we often find that the title "Lord" was often used to address a human king. For example, we read, "YHVH ("adonai", the Creator) says to my lord ("adonee"), 'Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.' " [Ps.110:1] Since King David could be addressed as "Master" or "Lord", certainly one can address David's greater son, Jesus, as his "Master" (Adon). As Peter proclaimed later, "Therefore, let all the House of Israel know assuredly that the God (HaShem) made this Jesus whom you crucified both 'Lord' and 'Messiah'." [Acts 2:36] These words confirms that the only Almighty Creator made this crucified and resurrected human creature, Jesus, both "Lord" (Master) and "Messiah" (the Anointed King).

Also, in Jewish context the title "God" is sometimes used to address a human king. For example, in the Psalms we read, "Your throne, O 'god' (Eloheem), will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore, 'god', your God has anointed you with the oil of joy above your companions." [45:6-7] IOW, the God of this human "god" anointed this human creature to rule over his human companions. If the human judges and kings could be referred to as "gods" or "powerful rulers" ("eloheem"), it is no surprise that one who is considered to be the supreme human king or judge is given the same title.

It is possible that Thomas was using a grammatical construction called "hendiadys" where a single concept is expressed by two synonyms linked by the conjunction "and" [v']. For example, one might say "to look with eyes and envy" and mean "to look with envious eyes". Here are a couple of examples of "hendiadys" found in the Hebrew scriptures...in Genesis 1.2, "tohoo vavohoo" (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ) might best be translated as "a formless void" and in Job 40:10, "v'hod v'hadar" (וְה֖וֹד וְהָדָ֣ר) could be translated as "glorious splendor". So here in John 20:28, "my Lord (Master) and my God (i.e. Sovereign or Potentate)" are apparently two synonyms used to express a single concept which could be translated as "my sovereign Lord" or as "my lordly Potentate".

Since one might address human kings or judges as "Lord" and "God", it is not surprising to find one of Jesus' disciples addressing the resurrected son of David as his "powerful Master" or as his "lordly Potentate". OTOH, those who deify this human creature and claim that he was a second one of three different "co-equal" and "co-eternal" god-persons are forcing a different idolatrous meaning on this text which was not intended. Thomas' confession is an acknowledgement of Jesus as a human creature whom the Almighty Creator has given authority. It was not a recognition of a second god-person in a god-head (i.e. pantheon) of three co-equal, co-eternal members.

Just more babel from unbelieving Jews.

Try "Emmanuel" per Matthew 1.

How many times are you going to post this same type of idea of trying to prove that Christ Jesus is not God? There's enough posts on this already!!!
 

Duckybill

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From YOUR chosen English Bible belantos:

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

goodshepard55

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The thing is the op does not even belong to belantos......it belongs to someone else, he has just edited it for easier reading....Mercy ....belantos...what are your own ideas on this?Also do you have permission to post and edit that persons writing or are you just one of the people that just copy and paste someones work without permission? So no need to respond to the op post as the original writeris not here to defend themselves...
 

Duckybill

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"From YOUR chosen English Bible belantos:"

Correction:

John 1:1 (NRSV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (NRSV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.


 

belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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From YOUR chosen English Bible belantos:

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



We have dealt with these verses many times, why do you keep bringing them up pretending you are showing something new?

ESV is not my chosen translation. I use a variety of them, like NRSV / RSV, NASB, and many others. If you only depend on one you subject yourself to theological bias. The NRSV is excellent in that it gives you alternative readings also. For example, when it reads "died for our sins" you can see in the footnote "because of", which is the correct reading.



The thing is the op does not even belong to belantos......it belongs to someone else, he has just edited it for easier reading....Mercy ....belantos...what are your own ideas on this?Also do you have permission to post and edit that persons writing or are you just one of the people that just copy and paste someones work without permission? So no need to respond to the op post as the original writeris not here to defend themselves...

His writings are in the public domain. They can be gleaned from google groups. If I claimed them to myself that would be wrong. He is actually my Facebook friend. I only edited out the Hebrew names for your sake, so instead of Eleesha you read Elizabeth and such.

I post these because i agree with him and it saves me typing.
 

Duckybill

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Feb 12, 2010
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We have dealt with these verses many times, why do you keep bringing them up pretending you are showing something new?
Actually you have been running from them.
ESV is not my chosen translation.
Already corrected my error. NRSV says the same thing. I don't know of any that support YOUR opinion.
I use a variety of them, like NRSV / RSV, NASB, and many others. If you only depend on one you subject yourself to theological bias. The NRSV is excellent in that it gives you alternative readings also. For example, when it reads "died for our sins" you can see in the footnote "because of", which is the correct reading.

John 1:1 (NRSV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (NRSV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.
 

Duckybill

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Belantos, actually I can easily see why you reject the NT as it proclaims you as a deceiver and antichrist.

2 John 1:7 (ESV)
[sup]7 [/sup]For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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Just more babel from unbelieving Jews.

Try "Emmanuel" per Matthew 1.

How many times are you going to post this same type of idea of trying to prove that Christ Jesus is not God? There's enough posts on this already!!!

Check the original Isaiah prophecy. Ahaz was supposed to see its fulfilment...


Actually you have been running from them.

Already corrected my error. NRSV says the same thing. I don't know of any that support YOUR opinion.


John 1:1 (NRSV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (NRSV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.

The "word" is the personified Torah. Anything else new?

Belantos, actually I can easily see why you reject the NT as it proclaims you as a deceiver and antichrist.

2 John 1:7 (ESV)
[sup]7 [/sup]For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Have you noticed the grammar? John said it in his days that these deceivers "have gone" out into the world. That was about 2000 years ago. These antichrists proclaimed that Jesus was not a full human being ("in the flesh"), but that their Pagan god impregnated his virgin mother and so he was born as a god-man like many other Greek deities.
 

Duckybill

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The "word" is the personified Torah. Anything else new?
Oh gee, now you live by the Torah? How can you live by it when you don't even know it??? You can't/don't.



These antichrists proclaimed that Jesus was not a full human being ("in the flesh"), but that their Pagan god impregnated his virgin mother and so he was born as a god-man like many other Greek deities.
The description, antichrist, fits you well. You deny the NT, including Jesus/God. Remember John 1? God came in the flesh. You are an antichrist.
 

belantos

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Oh gee, now you live by the Torah? How can you live by it when you don't even know it??? You can't/don't.


The description, antichrist, fits you well. You deny the NT, including Jesus/God. Remember John 1? God came in the flesh. You are an antichrist.

This is very low and sinful attitude, ducky. You sink to personal insults rather than dealing with the subject in question. This is very un-Christian.


Matthew 5:22
... whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

You don't demean people.You must guard your tongue.
 

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"My Lord and My God"
by Shmuel Playfair
[edited for easier reading]

One of the most popular proof texts used by Christians to support their deification of a human creature is found near the end of the gospel of John where we read, "And Thomas answered and said unto him, 'My Lord and my God!'". [John 20:28] What they do not understand is that Thomas addresses the resurrected Jesus, the son of Joseph, with titles of respect commonly used in the ancient Near East to refer to human kings and judges. He was *not* addressing Jesus as being the only immortal, invisible Creator, the Greater Than All, Aveenu, Malkaynu (our Father, our King). Rather, he was acknowledging Yeshua as his appointed Lord (Master) and as his representative Sovereign (i.e. Powerful Ruler = authorized Judge or anointed King).

In the Jewish milieu in which Thomas spoke, we often find that the title "Lord" was often used to address a human king. For example, we read, "YHVH ("adonai", the Creator) says to my lord ("adonee"), 'Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.' " [Ps.110:1] Since King David could be addressed as "Master" or "Lord", certainly one can address David's greater son, Jesus, as his "Master" (Adon). As Peter proclaimed later, "Therefore, let all the House of Israel know assuredly that the God (HaShem) made this Jesus whom you crucified both 'Lord' and 'Messiah'." [Acts 2:36] These words confirms that the only Almighty Creator made this crucified and resurrected human creature, Jesus, both "Lord" (Master) and "Messiah" (the Anointed King).

Also, in Jewish context the title "God" is sometimes used to address a human king. For example, in the Psalms we read, "Your throne, O 'god' (Eloheem), will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore, 'god', your God has anointed you with the oil of joy above your companions." [45:6-7] IOW, the God of this human "god" anointed this human creature to rule over his human companions. If the human judges and kings could be referred to as "gods" or "powerful rulers" ("eloheem"), it is no surprise that one who is considered to be the supreme human king or judge is given the same title.

It is possible that Thomas was using a grammatical construction called "hendiadys" where a single concept is expressed by two synonyms linked by the conjunction "and" [v']. For example, one might say "to look with eyes and envy" and mean "to look with envious eyes". Here are a couple of examples of "hendiadys" found in the Hebrew scriptures...in Genesis 1.2, "tohoo vavohoo" (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ) might best be translated as "a formless void" and in Job 40:10, "v'hod v'hadar" (וְה֖וֹד וְהָדָ֣ר) could be translated as "glorious splendor". So here in John 20:28, "my Lord (Master) and my God (i.e. Sovereign or Potentate)" are apparently two synonyms used to express a single concept which could be translated as "my sovereign Lord" or as "my lordly Potentate".

Since one might address human kings or judges as "Lord" and "God", it is not surprising to find one of Jesus' disciples addressing the resurrected son of David as his "powerful Master" or as his "lordly Potentate". OTOH, those who deify this human creature and claim that he was a second one of three different "co-equal" and "co-eternal" god-persons are forcing a different idolatrous meaning on this text which was not intended. Thomas' confession is an acknowledgement of Jesus as a human creature whom the Almighty Creator has given authority. It was not a recognition of a second god-person in a god-head (i.e. pantheon) of three co-equal, co-eternal members.


This commentary requires an incredible stretch of the imagination - let's look at the verse:

In John 20:28, the apostle Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." In the Greek, this sentence reads literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me." It would be nothing short of blasphemy for Jesus not to rebuke Thomas if he were wrong. Jesus does nothing of the sort, but in fact he accepts Thomas’ profession of his identity as God in the next verse.


John 20:29 - Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Believed what? That Jesus is Lord and God. Why would others be blessed for believing in a resurrected person they have never met?
[font="arial][size="2"][/size][/font]


Jesus was not Thomas' king or judge - He was Thomas' resurrected Savior.[font="arial]
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belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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This commentary requires an incredible stretch of the imagination - let's look at the verse:

[font="arial]In John 20:28, the apostle Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." In the Greek, this sentence reads literally, [b]"The Lord of me and the God of me."[/b][/font][font="arial] It would be nothing short of blasphemy for Jesus not to rebuke Thomas if he were wrong. Jesus does nothing of the sort, but in fact he accepts Thomas’ profession of his identity as God in the next verse.[/font]
[font="arial]
[/font]
[font="arial][color="#006400"]Thomas is not identifying Jesus as his God, but rather, as his powerful superior, king. The primary role of the Messiah, if you remember, is to be the human ruler in the Kingdom.[/color]
[/font][font="arial]
[/font]
[font="Arial"]John 20:29 - Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”[/font]


Without a risen Messiah there is no king and there is no Kingdom. Hence, it was important for Thomas to see that the Messiah was truly risen to believe that the Kingdom had come. Jesus was not reaffirming Thomas' belief in his deity, that idea is foreign to the context.

Believed what? That Jesus is Lord and God. Why would others be blessed for believing in a resurrected person they have never met?
[font="arial] [/font]
[font="arial][color="#006400"]Because they will believe due to the testimony of others and rejoice about the risen king. According to the Torah the testimony of two or three witnesses establish a matter. Thomas did not obey the Torah and doubted.[/color]
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[font="arial]Jesus was not Thomas' king or judge - He was Thomas' [/font][font="arial][size="2"]resurrected Savior.[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="2"]Jesus was Thomas' king because he is the son of David who qualifies to the throne of David, as well as to the throne of the Kingdom.
[/size][/font][font="arial][/font][font="arial][/font][font="arial][/font][font="arial][/font]


 

Duckybill

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Feb 12, 2010
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A total perversion of what Thomas and Jesus said! You have nothing to offer belantos, but Hell fire.


 

Duckybill

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Feb 12, 2010
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Honestly belantos, I'm waiting for you to produce even one English Bible that agrees with you. Can't you find even one?