My take on original sin

[Keiw]

So what was the original sin?

Satan lied to Eve and told her they positively would not die. Gen 3:4

 

[TonyChanYT]

Satan lied to Eve and told her they positively would not die. Gen 3:4

any reference support?

 

[JBO]

Realize that death is a process of cells dying daily, organs and systems within breaking down, growing old and eventually no longer functioning.
This process started when sin came into the world and into their bodies.

Nah, that process started when God created the universe. God has not given anything or anybody the power to alter the basic functioning of His creation.

So the wages of sin is both physical and spiritual death. You might ask, But what about the Tree of Life, they could 't have lived forever unless they ate of it? True. But this was God's plan all along, that we would know good and evil, and appreciate what good is and know Him. Think about it, we could not know what the meaning of mercy, forgiveness, healing, love, faith, kindness, joy, patience or peace unless we experience their opposites. When we experience pain and suffering, or despair, hate, hunger and death, then when good comes along, we really appreciate it, we really begin to understand what good is, who God is and all of His attributes.

So God created all that is bad so we would know what is good. Interesting idea, but I don't believe it. Did the angels need to experience pain and suffering, or despair, hate, hunger and death in order to know and appreciate good?

 

[TonyChanYT]

Do you know what good is?

See Was the Garden of Eden created perfect?

 

[Keiw]

any reference support?

Gods inspired words at Genesis 3:4

 

[Webers_Home]

.
● Gen 2:15-17 . . Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for
the tree of knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for in the day
you eat of it, you shall die.

That passage is a favorite among critics because Adam didn't drop dead the
very day he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live
outside the garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son
Seth (Gen 5:4). So; is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent
discrepancy?

The first thing to point out is that in order for his maker's warning to
resonate in Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as he understood
death in his own day rather than death as modern Sunday school classes
construe it in their day. In other words: Adam's concept of death was
primitive, i.e. normal and natural rather than spiritual.

As far as can be known from scripture, Man is the only specie that God
created in His own image, viz: a creature blessed with perpetual youth. The
animal kingdom was given nothing like it.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around Adam by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that it
wasn't a strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a
moment and define death for Adam seeing as how it was doubtless a
common occurrence in his everyday life.

So I think we can be reasonably confident that Adam was up to speed on at
least the natural aspects of death and fully understood that if he went ahead
and tasted the forbidden fruit that his body would lose its perpetual youth and
end up no more permanent than grass.

The thing is: the aging process is a lingering, walking death rather than sudden
death, i.e. mortality is slow, but very relentless: like Arnold Swarzenegger's movie
character "The Terminator"-- mortality feels neither pain nor pity, nor remorse nor
fear; it cannot be reasoned with nor can it be bargained with, and it absolutely will
not stop-- ever! --until your body is so broken down that it cannot continue.

● Zech 1:5 . .Where are your forefathers now? And the prophets, do they live
forever?

My parents are gone, and the great preacher Billy Graham is gone. My
favorite rock and roll guitar player during the years I was a teen-ager was
Chuck Berry. He's gone. When I was a sophomore in high school, me and a
buddy went to see "The Blob" starring a rather unknown actor at the time
named Steve McQueen. He's gone. My eldest brother entered the Catholic
priesthood and anon became a Friar. He's gone. My bestest friend ever,
whom I'd known since the 2nd grade in elementary school is gone; shot to
death by law enforcement. My very favorite nephew is gone too; dropped
dead to the floor of unknown causes at 51.

There's hardly a year goes by without someone passing away that at one
time was very important to me --constant reminders that nobody lives
forever and neither will I. At my current age of 79+ and diagnosed with
esophageal cancer, I'll be passing away not too long from now. Most of my
life has already been lived and I'm in the home stretch; heading for the exit.
When I was a youngster, life's horizon seemed forever far away; but now,
looking at my deteriorating body, it seems I'm walking on the horizon's
edge.
_

 

[Jim C]

.
● Gen 2:15-17 . . Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for
the tree of knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for in the day
you eat of it, you shall die.

That passage is a favorite among critics because Adam didn't drop dead the
very day he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live
outside the garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son
Seth (Gen 5:4). So; is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent
discrepancy?

The first thing to point out is that in order for his maker's warning to
resonate in Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as he understood
death in his own day rather than death as modern Sunday school classes
construe it in their day. In other words: Adam's concept of death was
primitive, i.e. normal and natural rather than spiritual.

As far as can be known from scripture, Man is the only specie that God
created in His own image, viz: a creature blessed with perpetual youth. The
animal kingdom was given nothing like it.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around Adam by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that it
wasn't a strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a
moment and define death for Adam seeing as how it was doubtless a
common occurrence in his everyday life.

So I think we can be reasonably confident that Adam was up to speed on at
least the natural aspects of death and fully understood that if he went ahead
and tasted the forbidden fruit that his body would lose its perpetual youth and
end up no more permanent than grass.

The thing is: the aging process is a lingering, walking death rather than sudden
death, i.e. mortality is slow, but very relentless: like Arnold Swarzenegger's movie
character "The Terminator"-- mortality feels neither pain nor pity, nor remorse nor
fear; it cannot be reasoned with nor can it be bargained with, and it absolutely will
not stop-- ever! --until your body is so broken down that it cannot continue.

● Zech 1:5 . .Where are your forefathers now? And the prophets, do they live
forever?

My parents are gone, and the great preacher Billy Graham is gone. My
favorite rock and roll guitar player during the years I was a teen-ager was
Chuck Berry. He's gone. When I was a sophomore in high school, me and a
buddy went to see "The Blob" starring a rather unknown actor at the time
named Steve McQueen. He's gone. My eldest brother entered the Catholic
priesthood and anon became a Friar. He's gone. My bestest friend ever,
whom I'd known since the 2nd grade in elementary school is gone; shot to
death by law enforcement. My very favorite nephew is gone too; dropped
dead to the floor of unknown causes at 51.

There's hardly a year goes by without someone passing away that at one
time was very important to me --constant reminders that nobody lives
forever and neither will I. At my current age of 79+ and diagnosed with
esophageal cancer, I'll be passing away not too long from now. Most of my
life has already been lived and I'm in the home stretch; heading for the exit.
When I was a youngster, life's horizon seemed forever far away; but now,
looking at my deteriorating body, it seems I'm walking on the horizon's
edge.
_

Powerful post.
Go with God, my brother.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Nah, that process started when God created the universe. God has not given anything or anybody the power to alter the basic functioning of His creation.

So God created all that is bad so we would know what is good. Interesting idea, but I don't believe it. Did the angels need to experience pain and suffering, or despair, hate, hunger and death in order to know and appreciate good?

Evil already existed! The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was planted in the Garden days before Adam and Eve existed --- for a purpose. That tree of course was just a tree that was to be off limits, a rule, that God knew they would break. Trees don't contain knowledge, it was just a doorway, a trigger, that set them off on a life filled with experiences that God intended mankind to go through. Remember, I was a doorway to know what good was as well as evil.
1/3 of the angels sinned and fell, only they became evil remained that way. The rest were obedient. And that served a purpose. It is interesting that likely there are hundreds of millions of angels and there was an exact fraction of that amount, don't think the figure was a rounded off figure. And btw, 200,000,000 demons seems to be what comes out will soon come out of the Abyss to torture unbelievers, appearing as demon locusts (in Rev. 9:3-11); then they morphed into another form, appearing as horsemen (in Rev. 9:16-19). God had a purpose for everything from Creation to Judgment Day into eternity.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

See Was the Garden of Eden created perfect?

Randy Kluth is very knowledgeable and I enjoy reading his posts. I don't recall ever disagreeing with him because mostly we are on the same page. But now you have showed me something I do disagree with. It's okay, the Body of Christ seems to be split down the middle concerning our origins. I am a YEC. Many believe in an old universe, 13.7 billion years old, with our earth being 4.5 billion years old and to boot a Theistic Evolution of life forms as we know them. In this view, God created things in a simplistic form and then let evolution run its course.
The Bible does not say that. It says God created all forms finished, complete. A rose was always a rose. A lamb, a monkey, an apple, etc., etc.,etc., were all made finished. We were made finished. Creation occurred in SIX 24-hour days! No simple form creature turned into a more complex different creature. There are changes within each kind, but they can be referred to as adaptive mechanisms within the genetic code ( micro- evolution if you will). But there is no evidence of macro-evolutuon, (one kind slowly evolving into different kind), nor are those dating methods accurate.
With this Theistic Evolutionary view, you can't take Genesis literally, you have to distort it or just say it's all symbolic, an allegory... whatever.
Genesis is foundational and should be taken literally. If you mess with it, you'll likely mess with the rest of the Bible. And people do. Revelation is snother book people mess with. We see Preterists misinterpreting that book, turning it into some abstract allegory that already happened. Read their interpretation and it sounds like you entered the Twilight Zone, it's made up stuff to conform with their belief system. The first few chapters happened, but not chapters 6-22. But I think the first four seals in Rev. 6 have been opened and so it is happening right now, but that is another topic.

 

[keithr]

Immortality makes people immune to the aging process. But although immortality
prevents people from dying of old age, it doesn't protect them from death by other
means, e.g. violence, poison, falls, starvation, dehydration, bleeding out,
decapitation, blunt force trauma, bullets, suffocation, crushing, etc.

Humans are not immortal. Only God was immortal, 1 Timothy 6:16 (WEB):

(16) who {God} alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

The Greek word that is translated as immortal is athanasia which means deathlessness (or as Barnes Notes puts it, "exemption from death"). As Strong's says, athanasia is a compound of 'A' (alpha), as a negative particle, and thanatos which means death.

Your list of some causes of death, "violence, poison, falls, starvation, dehydration, bleeding out, decapitation, blunt force trauma, bullets, suffocation, crushing, etc." just shows why it is impossible for humans to be immortal. In order to become immortal Christians (only) must be changed to be like Jesus now is, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 (WEB):

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

Just as Jesus is now immortal, since his resurrection, so Christians will be changed to be like Jesus and to become immortal. 1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

Philippians 3:20-21 (ESV):

(20) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,​

(21) who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.​

1 Corinthians 15:50 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

 

[TonyChanYT]

Gods inspired words at Genesis 3:4

Thanks for the reference. This is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Display and indent the quoted text.
2. Selectively bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making. No need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.
3. Be concise and precise to the point. No need to quote the whole chapter.

This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you it will improve your analytical thinking.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I am a YEC.

See How old is the earth?. We can continue there.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

See How old is the earth?. We can continue there.

You should not let the age of the earth become a factor in your understanding of Genesis, nor its literal and explicit descriptions given -- that God made everything finished and perfect.
I think its close to 6000 years and that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. Since they became too large and dangerous, Noah obviously did not bring them aboard. Can you imagind, " Hey T-Rex, come on over, here is your room, be nice now ... don't even think about Mr. Brontosaurus down the hall ... Listen, we have to feed 17,000 amimals fir one year so you'll have to do with a small ration until you get out ... then you can eat everyone!" Don't think so.
These evolutionists toss around hundreds of millions and billions of years like grains of sand, easily. Do realy think a sun has billions of years of energy? Or that apes became human? I loved Jurassic Park, but frankly Doctor Grant was way off, Raptors were never anything else but Raptors and T. Rex, who along with almost all other large animals, became extinct from the FLOOD, w/ likely an Asteroid event.
Anyways, God said everything was "very good". I just don't think "very good" means with flaws and defects.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Only God was immortal, 1 Timothy 6:16

I've examined your passage in its context (1Tim 6:13-16) and it appears to
me the immortality spoken of is Christ's rather than God's.

* According to the epistle to the Hebrews: it's essential that Christ be immortal
to qualify as a high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
_

 

[Keiw]

Thanks for the reference. This is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Display and indent the quoted text.
2. Selectively bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making. No need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.
3. Be concise and precise to the point. No need to quote the whole chapter.

This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you it will improve your analytical thinking.

Listening to Gods command to all-Be like the Bereans and make sure of all things), and looking up the scripture for one self is very beneficial to that one.

 

[keithr]

I've examined your passage in its context (1Tim 6:13-16) and it appears to
me the immortality spoken of is Christ's rather than God's.

The way it is written is a bit ambiguous (it's a long sentence that mentions God and Jesus). So in such a case it is helpful to search the Scriptures for further clues, such as John 1:18 and 6:46 (WEB):

(1:18) No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.​

(6:46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.​

This confirms that 1 Timothy 6:16 (WEB):

(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

must be referring to God, whom no human has ever seen, rather than Jesus, who was seen by many people. Paul's earlier statement also confirms this - 1 Timothy 1:17 (WEB):

(17) Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.​

* According to the epistle to the Hebrews: it's essential that Christ be immortal
to qualify as a high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

I presume you must be referring to Hebrews chapters 5-7. However, that says nothing about immortality, it only says of Jesus that:

(17) for it is testified, “You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.”​

Being a priest forever does not mean that he must be immortal; it simply implies that he will live and remain a priest forever. Jesus is immortal now, but he wasn't before his resurrection (just like he wasn't a priest before his resurrection), otherwise he could not have died on the cross (and none of us would be saved from eternal death!). There is a difference between God enabling living beings that He created to live forever, and being immortal. Being immortal means that you cannot possibly die.

Hebrews 5:8-10

(8) though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered. {death}​

(9) Having been made perfect {perfect, complete saviour}, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation,​

(10) named by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.​

Luke 13:32 (KJV):

(32) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox {Herod}, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day {when he was crucified} I shall be perfected.​

 

[Webers_Home]

.
● Heb 6:20 . . He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

There's no biblical record of Melchizedek's death. Of course he's actually dead, but for
the purposes of a "type" he was immortal.

● Heb 7:2-3 . . Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days
or end of life: like the son of God he remains a priest forever.

The tenure of a Levitical priest was limited due to his own mortality; whereas
Melchizedek's tenure was perpetual-- i.e. permanent --because as a type he was
immortal.

● Heb 7:8-9 . . In the one case the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the
other case by him who is declared to be living.

* The characteristics of Melchizedek's priesthood reveal a couple of serious flaws in
Mormonism's priesthood order of Melchizedek.

1) Mel's is a high priest position (Heb 5:10, Heb 6:20) meaning that it can be occupied
by only one man at a time because on the page of scripture there were no other priests
of God in his day. (Gen 14:18)

2) The man selected has to be immortal.

It's readily seen that Mormonism's priesthood order of Melchizedek is a case of
mistaken identity because they have numerous men in their order all at the same time,
and none are immortal.
_

 

[TonyChanYT]

.
● Gen 2:15-17 . . Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for
the tree of knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for in the day
you eat of it, you shall die.

That passage is a favorite among critics because Adam didn't drop dead the
very day he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live
outside the garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son
Seth (Gen 5:4). So; is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent
discrepancy?

The first thing to point out is that in order for his maker's warning to
resonate in Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as he understood
death in his own day rather than death as modern Sunday school classes
construe it in their day. In other words: Adam's concept of death was
primitive, i.e. normal and natural rather than spiritual.

As far as can be known from scripture, Man is the only specie that God
created in His own image, viz: a creature blessed with perpetual youth. The
animal kingdom was given nothing like it.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around Adam by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that it
wasn't a strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a
moment and define death for Adam seeing as how it was doubtless a
common occurrence in his everyday life.

So I think we can be reasonably confident that Adam was up to speed on at
least the natural aspects of death and fully understood that if he went ahead
and tasted the forbidden fruit that his body would lose its perpetual youth and
end up no more permanent than grass.

The thing is: the aging process is a lingering, walking death rather than sudden
death, i.e. mortality is slow, but very relentless: like Arnold Swarzenegger's movie
character "The Terminator"-- mortality feels neither pain nor pity, nor remorse nor
fear; it cannot be reasoned with nor can it be bargained with, and it absolutely will
not stop-- ever! --until your body is so broken down that it cannot continue.

● Zech 1:5 . .Where are your forefathers now? And the prophets, do they live
forever?

My parents are gone, and the great preacher Billy Graham is gone. My
favorite rock and roll guitar player during the years I was a teen-ager was
Chuck Berry. He's gone. When I was a sophomore in high school, me and a
buddy went to see "The Blob" starring a rather unknown actor at the time
named Steve McQueen. He's gone. My eldest brother entered the Catholic
priesthood and anon became a Friar. He's gone. My bestest friend ever,
whom I'd known since the 2nd grade in elementary school is gone; shot to
death by law enforcement. My very favorite nephew is gone too; dropped
dead to the floor of unknown causes at 51.

There's hardly a year goes by without someone passing away that at one
time was very important to me --constant reminders that nobody lives
forever and neither will I. At my current age of 79+ and diagnosed with
esophageal cancer, I'll be passing away not too long from now. Most of my
life has already been lived and I'm in the home stretch; heading for the exit.
When I was a youngster, life's horizon seemed forever far away; but now,
looking at my deteriorating body, it seems I'm walking on the horizon's
edge.
_

So what is the original sin?

 

[keithr]

● Heb 6:20 . . He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

There's no biblical record of Melchizedek's death. Of course he's actually dead, but for
the purposes of a "type" he was immortal.

Hebrews 7:3 (WEB):

(3) without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God), remains a priest continually.​

The Levitical priesthood was hereditary, so it was important to the Jews to be able to prove they were descended from Aaron. As the Cambridge Bible Notes says:

The fact that he had no recorded father, mother, or lineage enhanced his dignity because the Aaronic priesthood depended exclusively on the power to prove direct descent from Aaron which necessitated a most scrupulous care in the preservation of the priestly genealogies. (See Ezr_2:61-62; Neh_7:63-64, where families which could not actually produce their pedigree are excluded from the priesthood.)​

Melchizedek was a different type of priest though. He did not inherit his priesthood, nor pass it on to his descendents. He was also a king and a priest; he was the king of Salem (which means 'peace'), and his name means "king of righteousness". Paul says he "remains a priest continually" as far as the Genesis record goes, because there is no record of his death, whereas the Levitical priests die and the priesthood was passed on through successive generations. Therefore the antitype is a priest of the most high God (verse 1), who is the King of Peace and the King of Righteousness, who will remain a priest forever (he will never die again - "I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever", Revelation 1:18), and who has no ancestors or successors in the priestly office.

Hebrews 7:23-25 (WEB)

(23) Many, indeed, have been made priests, because they are hindered from continuing by death.​

(24) But he, because he lives forever, has his priesthood unchangeable.​

(25) Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.​

Again, living forever doesn't mean that you are immortal (although Jesus is now immortal). Many people and angels will live forever, but they will not be immortal. Only those who become members of God's household will be given the immortal divine nature.

* The characteristics of Melchizedek's priesthood reveal a couple of serious flaws in
Mormonism's priesthood order of Melchizedek.

I'm not interested in discussing the belief of Mormons!

 

[Webers_Home]

So what is the original sin?

The information you seek is located back in post #18
_