Administrator said:
This is not what Natural Theology is about. Most natural theology is metaphysical and the current theories of the day for Science do not really have an impact.
I disagree. Natural theology is a type of theology that provides information about God based on our experiences and knowledge of the natural world that God has created. I think it's inherently obvious that for at least the last couple of centuries, science is our primary and best means for gaining knowledge about the natural world. Therefore, the results of science directly feed into natural theology.
Interestingly, many think of natural theology as an alternative to revealed theology, or as the two being in an either/or, black/white framework, where you either learn about God through revelation or through nature. IMO that's unnecessarily restrictive. I see no reason at all the two can't instead be complimentary.
River Jordan, I might suggest that you read the book "The beginning of Infinity" by David Deutsch
Thanks for the recommendation.
You seem to put way to much stock in current explanations of science.
You know, I hear that a lot from folks here and to be honest, I'm not sure what it even means. What is "too much stock" in science? Exactly how much is "too much"? How much is enough? Where's the line? Some Christians would say anyone who goes to a doctor or hospital when they're ill is "putting too much stock in science". On the other hand other Christians (like me) would argue Christianity has already taken black eyes over ignoring or denying science, so it would be prudent to learn from those mistakes so we don't repeat them.
IMO, "you put too much stock in science" is something people say when they can't counter the actual science being discussed, so instead try and turn the focus to the person discussing it. IOW, it's something like "I can't rebut what you're saying from a scientific perspective, so instead I'll just say you like science too much as a thinly veiled insult".
God could and can use evolution for his purposes but that will not and cannot change who he is or what Natural theology and the Bible has reveled about him. He is Infinite, Eternal and Unchangeable in his being.
That's a good segueway for my final thoughts on this.
As I noted when I first started posting in this thread, the idea of natural theology brings up a fascinating question. What if our study of nature...God's creation...gives results that contradict what's revealed in scripture? The Galileo affair is a classic example. The Catholic Church had concluded that scripture depicted the earth being stationary and orbited by the sun (scripture says God commanded the sun and moon to stand still in Joshua). That knowledge was the result of revealed theology. But then Galileo comes along and says no, the earth moves and orbits the sun, as revealed by studying nature...natural theology.
So we see the conflict between what is known via revealed theology and what is known via natural theology. Did God create a stationary earth or one that moves? Why would God command the sun to stand still when He should have revealed that He actually stopped the earth from rotating? Well, we know the outcome. Science was right, the Church was wrong, and the affair continues to be an embarrassment.
Today we're faced with similar issues between science and a subset of Christians over evolution, the age of the universe, and the origin of life. What bothers me is I see some Christians marching right down the same path the Catholic Church took with Galileo, where they've concluded their interpretations are so beyond question and error, it is impossible for anything to ever contradict it. This assumption of absolute certainty is reflected in the statements of faith of apologetic creationist organizations like Answers in Genesis
where they say, "
By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record". And who decides what "the scriptural record" means? Answers in Genesis of course! They're so absolutely certain of their interpretive abilities they sink tens of millions of dollars into theme parks and "museums" promoting their young-earth view, and declaring that deviating from their interpretation is the driving force behind all the troubles in the world.
We see the mindset here....they believe their revealed theology is so absolutely without error, any and all results from "any field" of study must fall in line, and any results that don't are wrong "by definition". Gee....sound familiar? I guess it's a good thing AiG can't lock up heretics like the old days!
I think this general mindset has been at play here in this thread as well. It bugged me and bugged me why someone was so adamant that the problem being worked on by a field of research that is so relatively new is "impossible". History is full of examples where even some of the most brilliant people who've ever existed couldn't figure something out, only to have someone else come along afterwards and....
figure it out.
THIS ARTICLE provides several examples of some of our greatest scientists....Newton, Ptolemy, Huygens....running into things they couldn't figure out, declaring them to be impossible to solve and the providence of God, only to have someone else come along later (sometimes centuries later) and figure them out. Given that history, what would cause people to repeat it?
Then I did a bit of reading and I came to understand how this is really about internal conflict and how different people address and deal with it. Specific to this thread, it's about the conflicts between what is known via revealed theology and what is know via natural theology (science). As has become obvious through the couple of years I've been posting here, many conservative Christians have a very clean, efficient, and simple way to deal with these conflicts. Just like AiG, they assume absolute certainty in their interpretations and declare anything and everything that contradicts it to be wrong. Period.
A part of that also involves avoidance. Why would someone draw absolute lines in the sand and declare an unanswered question "impossible", and do so with such fervor and emotion? Like Gandolf in Lord of the Rings, they shout to scientists "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!" Why? IMO the answer is obvious....if scientists
do manage to solve the puzzle it will raise some serious conflicts between revealed theology and natural theology. Scripture says God created life, science has shown that life can arise all on its own....conflict. And how do some people handle conflict? By avoiding it, in this case by declaring it all impossible to solve while simultaneously chalking the research up to some atheistic/naturalistic propaganda effort. Conflict avoided. Clean, efficient, and simple.
But wait.....is that really a conflict? Is it
always a conflict when scripture says God created something but science shows that something can be produced by natural means? Scripture says God creates mountains and wind (Amos 4:13), but we have natural explanations for those things. Does that mean there's a conflict between scripture and plate tectonics, volcanism, and temperature gradients? If not, what's the special rule for those things that doesn't apply to the Genesis creation accounts? I've honestly not seen any creationist address this question.
So in sum, I would feel satisfied if after this thread is closed folks here would just think about a couple of things. First, ask yourself if revealed theology/natural theology is an either/or choice, or if the two can co-exist and compliment each other. Second, learn from history and don't repeat the mistakes others have made where they assume absolute certainty and from that point conclude anything that disagrees with them must be wrong no matter what. And finally, don't be afraid of internal conflicts. Don't "handle" them by denying they exist, or by drawing absolute lines in the sand which only shuts down any further discussion or thought. Don't let fear of the complexities and issues that would arise should scientists figure something out drive you to vanquish it by simply declaring with absolute certainty that it will never be figured out.
Our intelligence and curiosity are gifts from God. Don't deny us the freedom to use them just so you can avoid having to face tough issues and conflicts. God will see you though it. Trust Him.
