NDEs and ADCs: Their Apologetic Value for Christian Witness

[St. SteVen]

(3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

Great topic, thanks!

I found this particularly interesting. That the verse about the "great cloud of witnesses" bookends Hebrews chapter eleven.
The chapter breaks are arbitrary anyway. The author may have tied them together much closer.

What did you mean by the bit in the middle of your paragraph that reads:
"But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses
in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them." ???

How do they not precede? Haven't they passed on into the afterlife? Not sure what you mean.

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[St. SteVen]

(1a) Watch this brief interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIRE

Elsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

Here's the YouTube video link to which you are directed anyway. Worth watching.

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[St. SteVen]

(1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Dr. Scott Taylor's testimony:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRE

Such shared NDEs refute the claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation in a dying brain.

Same thing here.

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[O'Darby]

Same thing here.

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As I stated above, this has been one of my primary interests for 40+ years. I am currently reading Nine Days of Eternity, the latest and greatest elaborate NDE account that tells us What It's All About in great detail: Amazon.com. What It's All About is pretty much the antithesis of Christianity.

Dr. Scott Taylor has now turned his experience into a career: Books, CDs, retreats, speaking engagements: NEAR-DEATH MEDITATIONS Scott M. Taylor, Ed.D.. A veritable NDE evangelist. It's a common phenomenon.

NDEs have nothing per se to do with Jesus' Resurrection. Indeed, equating the Resurrection to a shared NDE or apparitional experience is a favorite tactic of those who are opposed to the Resurrection as a unique, Jesus-only event. Either the Resurrection was a unique, real-world, historical, Jesus-only event or it is of no value to Christianity.

After 40+ years of study, I have less idea of what NDEs are all about than I did 40 years ago. I don't think they are demonic by any means, although I do believe New Age "NDE theology" is fundamentally anti-Christian and that embracing the phenomenon too enthusiastically may be leading many people astray, "May be," not necessarily "is."

My spiritual quest has always been for Truth, oe as close as I can get in this lifetime. If elaborate accounts like Nine Days of Eternity and Anita Moorjani's famous account (https://www.anitamoorjani.com/) are True, then anything resembling orthodox Christianity is Not True, simple as that. The most basic NDE phenomenon as originally described by Dr. Moody is not irreconcilable with Christian doctrine; the more elaborate accounts like Moorjani's (and there are many, far more than explicitly Christian ones) simply cannot be reconciled with Chrsitianity. It seems odd that God would allow a supernatural deception on the scale of what the NDE phenomenon has become, so I remain interested in the possibility that these are indeed glimpses of Truth.

What anyone interested must try to do is make sense of the ENTIRE phenomenon, which is extremely difficult to do. If you just cherry-pick those that mesh with your preconceived Christian, Buddhist or New Age notions, you aren't really interested in Truth.

 

[dev553344]

Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) replicate by their seemingly "physical confirmations" and other verifications the evidence that persuaded the disciples that Jesus is alive. In my experience of witnessing, NDEs and ADCs can be more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why, I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published.

But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
(1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).

(2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)."
Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs.

(3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

(4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14).

(5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:
e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)."

My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them.


#1

I researched a little about NDE's and it is interesting. People seeing a personage with a face that shines like the sun. It is very similar to Jesus' transfiguration or some angelic encounter. Moses also had a glowing face in the old testament.

And people see love flowing from all the life in heaven. Sounds like the Holy Spirit.

 

[St. SteVen]

When the rich man asked for the begger to warn his brothers he was told. 'If they will not believe the bible. They will not believe if someone rises from the dead.'

That's a misquote.

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[St. SteVen]

So there is no difference between NDE and ADC. They are both NDE.

How are you defining ADC?

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[dev553344]

Just wanted to say, as I have been on forums for years, in sharing personal testimony if spiritual experiences, the most common attack against them is scripture. People love to doubt personal testimony. Which is why I am careful to decide when to share mine. And it doesn't mean the scripture says the personal experience is wrong, often the scripture isn't understood properly by those casting doubt. And there are people that love to attack peoples special experiences.

 

[St. SteVen]

(3b) Not all ADCs feature souls secure in Heaven. You will remember the bald actor, Telly Savalas, who starred in the Kojak TV series. Telly shares an ADC analogous to Leonard's in an interview:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D861&FORM=VIRE

I suspect that the discarnate driver is trapped in Hades.

Another one. (unavailable, but I found it)

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[St. SteVen]

(5) ATHEIST HOWARD SRORM'S THRILLING CONVERSION THROUGH AN NDE

Howard Storm had been an atheist Art History professor who took delight in ridiculing the naivite of Christians. But he was gloriously saved through his NDE. Howard had previously been a university art history professor who took delight in ridiculing Christian students. Howard's testimony is the most powerful one I have ever heard on Youtube. He has given it several times on the internet. Here is one of the shorter versions. It will thrill your soul:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...2E6D15E1B57D8F1E28962E6D15E1B57D8F1&FORM=VIRE

Another one.

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[O'Darby]

How are you defining ADC?

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They are entirely different phenomena. The seminal book on ADCs is Hello From Heaven! by Bill and Judy Guggenheim. ADCs run the gamut from "contact dreams" to odd little signs, often involving electrical devices but sometimes involving animals or pretty much anything else, that seem to be communications from the dead. I've had at least ten I thought were pretty compelling. Ghosts, apparitions, deathbed visions, mediumistic communications and whatnot are possible clues to survival that are neither NDEs nor ADCs. Good grief, people, at least have SOME clue what you're talking about before you pontificate. It's highly reminiscent of many of the Bible discussions - "I don't actually know what I'm talking about, but by God I know what the Bible says and it isn't what YOU think it says!"

Howard Storm is yet another NDE celebrity who has turned his experience into a career. OF COURSE some Christians take Storm's account as "proof" of something, but then you are almost forced to explain away the vast majority of NDE accounts that are nothing like this as being "demonic." It just makes NO SENSE. The more elaborate an NDE account, the less credence I give it - or at least the less weight I give it. Sorry, but the VAST majority of NDE accounts are NOT explicitly Christian and the large majority of really elaborate ones are difficult to square with orthodox Christianity.

 

[St. SteVen]

They are entirely different phenomena. The seminal book on ADCs is Hello From Heaven! by Bill and Judy Guggenheim. ADCs run the gamut from "contact dreams" to odd little signs, often involving electrical devices but sometimes involving animals or pretty much anything else, that seem to be communications from the dead.

Okay, thanks.
It seems that digital technology has made a difference.
Digital audio and video recordings are picking up things that analog recordings never did.

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[St. SteVen]

New forum topic.

The Parenthetical Greatest Commandment = Love Yourself!

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[O'Darby]

Okay, thanks.
It seems that digital technology has made a difference.
Digital audio and video recordings are picking up things that analog recordings never did.

/

Oh, golly, you're going to get me started. I was a member of the American Association for Electronic Voice Phenomena (AAEVP), now known as the Association TransCommunication, About the AA-EVP – ATransC. THAT is a truly weird phenomenon. A bit to creepy for me ever to become involved, just as I'd never fool around with a Ouija board.

I make one huge distinction: Phenomena that come to you, such as NDEs and ADCs, are likely harmless and possibly beneficial (as they have been for me). When you start SEEKING phenomena, through Ouija boards, electronic devices, mediums or whatever, you are opening doors you will probably wish you hadn't opened and may have great difficulty closing.

New forum topic.

The Parenthetical Greatest Commandment = Love Yourself!

/

Well, hey, if we're engaged in shameless self-promotion, I started a blog called "The Little Church of What O'Darby Believes." Apparently, every blog post must be approved before it is published. Since the first one is my TESTIMONY, I'm going to be a bit perplexed if it isn't approved. Based on past experience elsewhere, I should be banned by the third or fourth post.

 

[St. SteVen]

I make one huge distinction: Phenomena that come to you, such as NDEs and ADCs, are likely harmless and possibly beneficial (as they have been for me). When you start SEEKING phenomena, through Ouija boards, electronic devices, mediums or whatever, you are opening doors you will probably wish you hadn't opened and may have great difficulty closing.

In some cases security cameras have picked up things that the owners weren't looking for. (I assume)

Well, hey, if we're engaged in shameless self-promotion, I started a blog called "The Little Church of What O'Darby Believes." Apparently, every blog post must be approved before it is published. Since the first one is my TESTIMONY, I'm going to be a bit perplexed if it isn't approved. Based on past experience elsewhere, I should be banned by the third or fourth post.

Not to worry.
I've been pushing the envelope for a while now.
Had a warning within the first week at the other place.
And a three month involuntary vacation twice.
PM still worked so my brethren could visit me in prison. - LOL
.

 

[Berserk]

(8) My next NDE is so unique that it is surely one of the most faith-inspiring. It seems to involve divine control of a tractor. Pastor Dave replaced me after I retired. He shares the testimony of a farmer who lived in the Colfax, WA region. The farmer was ploughing one of his fields, when he reached for something, lost his balance, and fell off the tractor. The huge tractor wheel ran across his chest, crushing ribs, and leaving him seriously injured. But he then had an NDE, during which he was told that his time was not up and he still had a purpose to fulfill on earth.

But he could barely move and his tractor had continued on without a driver and had vanishes over the slope of his field. His situation seemed hopeless, but just then, he saw his driverless tractor returning over the slope where it had vanished. The tractor came towards him. Would it pass him by or crush his body? No, it motored to his left, and then stopped, idling right beside him! With great difficulty, he was able to climb aboard and get to his house, from which his family was able to get him the medical help he needed to survive.

 

[Berserk]

(9) NDEs Supporting Claims that the Dead Monitor the Living:

I had just performed a wedding at my church in Buffalo, NY, and was now attending the reception at a country club. I happened to sit next to Phyllis, a rather aloof but attractive blonde doctor and medical researcher. She shared her 2 highly instructive NDEs with me. She had never believed in NDEs prior to her own experience. The first was triggered by a car accident. She found herself floating up to “a mall that really wasn’t a mall. It was a mall composed of white light.”

There she came upon a court area with several tables and a hidden orchestra playing beautiful music. Seated at one of the tables was her deceased mother. When Phyllis joined her, the Mom chided her, “You really need to grieve over my passing. Your inability to do so in hampering my progress over here!” This guilt trip made Phyllis very uncomfortable. She had always dealt with tragedy and disappointment by detaching from her emotions. Finally, she excused herself,“Well, I guess I’ll try to get back into my body now.”

A couple of years later, Phyllis was taken to the hospital for a serious operation.
She didn’t explicitly identify her illness, but she gave me the impression it was a woman’s ailment like cervical cancer. Her illness triggered another NDE. She again found herself in the “mall of white light” at her mother’s table in the court area. Her mother again lit into her," I told you your failure to grieve my passing is preventing my progress over here! Why haven’t you done what I asked?"

The soothing orchestra music in the background actually grated on Phyllis’s nerves. She hadn’t expected this second confrontation. Upset, she again suggested that she should leave. But her mother retorted, “No, you’re not ready to leave! You need to go with these 2 gentlemen.” Two tall men in white robes appeared and led her to “an elevator that wasn’t really an elevator. It was an elevator of white light.” They ascended to what seemed like a spirit hospital. Some sort of “medical” procedure was performed on Dr. Phyllis, which she didn’t understand. Then she was returned to her hospital bed in this world. The “medical” procedure had cured her and she was released from the hospital!

I never saw Phyllis again. Obviously, I was only dimly aware of the psychological baggage between her and her Mom. I have since often wondered if Phyllis was ever able to get in touch with her emotions and grieve her loss.

 

[Berserk]

(10) Our small city’s former school superintendent shared with me this ADC involving his niece Tami. Tami died at age 19 from an unspecified illness while a student at Washington State U. Then she often appeared in full-bodied ADCs to her Mom until one day she appeared only from the waist up and lamented, “I’m sorry Mom. I’m about to progress beyond the range in which I can communicate with you in this way. So this is the last time I will appear to you.” That Christmas a family reunion, including Tami’s Mom, gathered at this superintendent’s local home. His wife asked him to drive to a local mini-mart to buy some eggs and milk. His change included a dollar bill and some coins.

He was astounded by what he saw on the dollar bill. Written on it by a black marker was a smiley face signed, “Tami!” The far more common spelling of this name is “Tammy.” This miracle greatly inspired the faith of this Christian family and assured them that Tami was alive and was just dramatically saying “Goodbye” with this paranormal Christmas present.

 

[Berserk]

(11) Lesson 5 from the Guideposts article posted by Holy Fool refers to I heard Bruce Van Natta testify about his NDE and his miraculous
healing from the destruction of his intestines when the jack of a large truck collapsed on his chest. I asked him questions afterwards. His testimony is all over the internet in various lengths, but here is a succinct short version:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bruce+van+natta+youtube&view=detail&mid=D662536755F1BAD45AD1D662536755F1BAD45AD1&FORM=VIRE 1

His abdominal area was crushed by the truck to within 1 inch on one side. In an out-of-body state, he saw angels helping him survive the loss of almost all his intestines. Doctors couldn’t believe he was still alive. No one had ever survived the severing of 5 arteries and he should have bled to death. Then Bruce Carlson, a man Bruce Van Natta had met only once, felt called by God to fly from NY to Wisconsin to pray for Bruce. The result? An astounding healing miracle in which new intestines were created so Bruce could avoid starvation, digest food, and become a healthy fit witness to the power of the Holy Spirit to heal and guide.

 

[Berserk]

(12) My friend Gord, a chaplain in British Columbia, shared this experience of Annie and her family. Gord visited Annie in her nursing home and noticed an unopened bottle of lilac cologne on a table next to her bed. He asked her is she’d like an application of the cologne and when she said Yes, he asked a nursing aide to apply it. Annie brightened noticeably at the wonderful odor, smiled, and passed away. What a way to go!

Just then, Annie’s daughter and her husband were working in their barn, when the daughter suddenly asked her husband, “Do you smell that? It smells like lilacs.” He replied, “I was just going to say that, but I thought it might make me look crazy, given the foul animal stench in the barn.” When this couple learned of Annie’s passing and went to the nursing home, Gord told them the story of how Annie died. No one knew how the lilac cologne bottle got there. The couple apparently had an ADC of Annie’s spirit after her passing. This type of ADC is quite common.