Hi David,
I apologise. I thought I'd quoted it by name earlier, It is the beginning of a verse in Hebrews 2.
Blessings.
I apologise. I thought I'd quoted it by name earlier, It is the beginning of a verse in Hebrews 2.
Blessings.
Neither shall they say Look here! or Look there!
- Thread starter daq
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Pelaides said:
Wow, that is no different than someone asking if you are teaching demonism since they also believe, (and shutter).
dragonfly said:
Hebrews 2:9 Transliterated Unaccented
9. ton de brachu ti parangelous elattomenon blepomen Iesoun dia to pathematou thanatou doxe kai time estefanomenon, hoposchariti Theou huper pantos geusetai thanatou.
Hebrews 2:9 KJV
9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Remember the discussion we had about that particular word dragonfly?
Blepete what was said there and you will understand here even if none other heed the truth. :lol:
daq said:
Apparently you waited for the second page of this thread to roll around so as to ignore all of the discussion on the first page concerning Revelation 1:7 and quote it here again outside of genuine contextual understanding because you completely ignored what was said by the Scripture concerning optanomai on the previous page. Please know that it is not my words you have rejected but the Word-Doctrine of Messiah from the Gospel of John. In the same breath likewise you proceed to make false accusations, using Scripture as a weapon for a personal attacks, equating not just myself and others here but all amillennialists with gnosticism and "Hymenaeus" and therefore labeling all amillennialists heretics and blasphemers. In addition you also completely ignored my own words and made absolutely no attempt to answer the first question posed in the OP of this thread.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
When, if ever, do the following statements no longer apply? Scripture please!
The answer is NEVER because NONE of the Word-Doctrine of Messiah will ever pass away.
Hi daq,
Apart from not having been at my computer for most of yesterday, when I finally got back I began my homework, checking up on the word in Heb 2:9 and other instances of it. Yet again it is clear that here is another Greek word which can mean 'discern' as well as see with the naked natural eye. I can't pretend I could explain the difference between these Greek words, and why they were chosen each in the context in which the writers used them, since I really haven't done enough digging yet. But I know this: that if Jesus chose a particular word and it is quoted accurately by those recording Him, then it was that word for a reason.
Hi David,
Following on from my post to daq immediately preceding this, the answer to you question is... In respect of 'But we see Jesus', it is obvious that we do not see Him with the naked natural eye as the disciples did both before and after His resurrection, so the use in Hebrews 2:9 must mean one of the other interpretations.
Regarding which interpretation, might be open to how the Holy Spirit communicates that truth to the believer.
Apart from not having been at my computer for most of yesterday, when I finally got back I began my homework, checking up on the word in Heb 2:9 and other instances of it. Yet again it is clear that here is another Greek word which can mean 'discern' as well as see with the naked natural eye. I can't pretend I could explain the difference between these Greek words, and why they were chosen each in the context in which the writers used them, since I really haven't done enough digging yet. But I know this: that if Jesus chose a particular word and it is quoted accurately by those recording Him, then it was that word for a reason.
Hi David,
Following on from my post to daq immediately preceding this, the answer to you question is... In respect of 'But we see Jesus', it is obvious that we do not see Him with the naked natural eye as the disciples did both before and after His resurrection, so the use in Hebrews 2:9 must mean one of the other interpretations.
Regarding which interpretation, might be open to how the Holy Spirit communicates that truth to the believer.
That is absolutely correct dragonfly and is the veritable key to understanding: for God takes foolish things and uses them to confound the wise. If you go to any optometrist you will surely be told how the Greek word optanomai most certainly pertains to the medical field of optometry because even from ancient Greek optanomai pertains to the physical eye and eyesight. However, God owns all the earth, and the man is the earth, and therefore even the languages having been invented by man belong to God. The Master therefore takes words like optanomai and employs them according to the understanding which he received from the Father, (and Yeshua received the Revelation while he was in the desert with the wild beasts and tempted of the Adversary). Essentially optanomai in Scripture does not mean what it means outside of Scripture and the ONLY way to understand what it truly means in Scripture is by the Testimony of Yeshua, (which Testimony is the Spirit of prophecy and especially concerning the book of the Revelation of Yeshua from where that quote derives). In this way also it seems that God keeps his secrets from the unrepentant, (for the vail is removed only IN Messiah) and apparently this fact leaves the fleshmongers and the hatemongers in outer darkness until they truly repent.dragonfly said:
Matthew 6:22-23 KJVChristRoseFromTheDead said:
22. The light [GSN#3088 luchnos] of the body is the eye: [GSN#3788 ophthalmos] if therefore thine eye [GSN#3788 ophthalmos] be single, thy whole body shall be full of light [GSN#5460 photeinos].
23. But if thine eye [GSN#3788 ophthalmos] be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light [GSN#5457 phos - fire or light] that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Original Strong's Ref. #3088
Romanized luchnos
Pronounced lookh'-nos
from the base of GSN3022; a portable lamp or other illuminator (literally or figuratively):
KJV--candle, light.
Original Strong's Ref. #3788
Romanized ophthalmos
Pronounced of-thal-mos'
from GSN3700; the eye (literally or figuratively); by implication, vision; figuratively, envy (from the jealous side-glance):
KJV--eye, sight.
In the doctrine of Yeshua the ophthalmos-eye is the luchnos-lamp of the body. The luchnos is typically employed in the sense of a candle or extension rod of the greater luchnia which is the base of the lamp which holds the candles. The relationship between luchnos and luchnia is explained in the companion Luke passage where this saying is quoted again. Yeshua says that no one lights a luchnos-candle and puts it in a secret place but rather puts the luchnos-candle onto a luchnia-candlestick so as to give light to those who come into the abode. Those who enter into the abode automatically pay heed, (blepo) to the light provided by the luchnos-candle having been set upon the luchnia-candlestick and therefore do not stumble when they enter into the light.
Luke 11:33-36 KJV
33. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, [GSN#3088 luchnos] putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, [GSN#3087 luchnia] that they which come in may see the light.
34. The light [GSN#3088 luchnos] of the body is the eye: [GSN#3788 ophthalmos] therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
36. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle [GSN#3088 luchnos] doth give thee light.
Original Strong's Ref. #3087
Romanized luchnia
Pronounced lookh-nee'-ah
from GSN3088; a lamp-stand (literally or figuratively):
KJV--candlestick.
Going back to Matthew 5 we see that the word lampo from where comes lampas was already employed in the same context:
Matthew 5:14-16 KJV
14. Ye are the light [GSN#5457 phos - fire or light] of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15. Neither do men light a candle, [GSN#3088 luchnos] and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; [GSN#3087 luchnia] and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16. Let your light [GSN#5457 phos] so shine [GSN#2989 lampo] before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Original Strong's Ref. #2989
Romanized lampo
Pronounced lam'-po
a primary verb; to beam, i.e. radiate brilliancy (literally or figuratively):
KJV--give light, shine.
1) The ophthalmos-eye is the luchnos-lamp of the inside of the body.
2) The ophthalmos-eyes-luchnos-lamps are set in a luchnia-lampstand.
3) The phos-fire or light is the light inside the house and also the light of the world.
4) The lampo-light is the entire torch-light-lamp which denotes the whole being of the man.
5) Let your phos-fire-light of the inside so lampos-torch-light-blaze-shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Without these understandings with their contexts consistently applied elsewhere one will not be capable of understanding the parables of Yeshua which employ these same words and terminologies. The Parable of the Ten Virgins is the counterpart example in this case:
Matthew 24:45 ~ 25:4 KJV
45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, [GSN#2985 lampas] and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3. They that were foolish took their lamps, [GSN#2985 lampas] and took no oil [GSN#1637 elaion-oil-olive] with them:
4. But the wise took oil [GSN#1637 elaion-oil-olive] in their vessels [GSN#30 aggeion] with their lamps [GSN#2985 lampas].
Original Strong's Ref. #30
Romanized aggeion
Pronounced ang-eye'-on
from aggos (a pail, perhaps as bent; compare the base of GSN0043); a receptacle:
KJV--vessel.
Original Strong's Ref. #43
Romanized agkale
Pronounced ang-kal'-ay
from agkos (a bend, "ache"); an arm (as curved):
KJV--arm.
Original Strong's Ref. #2985
Romanized lampas
Pronounced lam-pas'
from GSN2989; a "lamp" or flambeau:
KJV--lamp, light, torch.
The beautiful picture painted for us in the form of the Parable of the Ten Virgins concerns the entire Menorah with its "arms", "ribs", or "bent stems" coming from the main branch. The Menorah is therefore symbolic of the lampo-lampas-light of the entire man. The wise virgins take in pure oil olive having been beaten fine as per Torah commandments, (Exodus 27:20 and Leviticus 24:2). Where do we get such oil for our luchnos-lamps which are our ophthalmos-eyes? As Yeshua says concerning the words which he speaks from the Father, when he also states that the flesh profits nothing, he says that his words are Spirit and they are Life. The pure oil olive goes into the eyes of the disciple and the eyes are the luchnos-lamps for to light the inside of the body and the inside of the man, (thus the "inner man" of which Paul likewise writes). The whole man is thus likened to the Menorah, ("Menorah Gan Eden") and or the whole vessel with all of its accompanying lesser vessels and utensils used also in the service of the Most High. If therefore a man will not take the pure oil olive into his ophthalmos-eyes and likewise lay up pure oil olive also within his own vessel for a rainy day or a dark night then the same man will be full of darkness. There is no way to take these words according to literal physical meaning even though they be absolutely true. Will a man or a woman go out and buy fresh olives to crush them fine, beat the pure oil olive out of them, remove all impurities by straining, filtering, and cold pressing, and then take that same literal physical pure oil olive and pour it into his or her literal physical ophthalmos-eyes which are the luchnos-lamps for the inside of the body? And how can one even say with a straight face that the "body" referenced herein the passages above is a literal and physical soma-body? Does a man need literal light to light the inside of his literal fleshly body every day? There is a soma-body psuchikos, (natural, physical, and soulish) and there is a soma-body pneumatikos, (non-carnal, non-corporeal, spiritual, and supernal) and to suggest that both of these bodies may be seen with physical eyes and touched with physical hands is a complete lack of understanding to say the least.
Hi daq
Sad to say, I have never seen the connection between the la imp (of the eye) and the parable of the ten virgins, before. The use of 'phos' is also 'illuminating' in a very welcome way. Thank you!
Sad to say, I have never seen the connection between the la imp (of the eye) and the parable of the ten virgins, before. The use of 'phos' is also 'illuminating'
in a very welcome way. Thank you!That common factor is one of the reasons I commenced the quote at Matthew 24:45 and underlined it. There is only one other place that statement is recorded in the Gospel accounts and it contains the the other half of the Parable of the Ten Virgins:dragonfly said:Hi daq
Sad to say, I have never seen the connection between the la imp (of the eye) and the parable of the ten virgins, before. The use of 'phos' is also 'illuminating'
Luke 12:34-46 KJV
34. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35. Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36. And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. [Revelation 3:20]
37. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41. Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46. The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Matthew 24:45 = Luke 12:42 ~
Here is a promise from the Angels. Acts1:11 "Which also said,ye men of galilee,why stand ye gazing up into heaven?this same Jesus,which is taken up,shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go to heaven."dragonfly said:
Hi Pelaides,
Indeed the angels said He would return in the same manner, and this confirmed what Jesus Himself had taught the disciples, but no-where did He or they explain what He would look like, and clearly... He looked different after His resurrection than He had before He died.
Now that He has been seated in glory with the Father, it is reasonable to suspect He may look different again.
Remember what happened to Moses after only forty days with God in Mount Horeb? His face shone so brightly he had to cover it before the Israelites could bear to look at him. And that was the Old Covenant glory!
Eternal Light! eternal Light!
How pure the soul must be
When, placed within Thy searching sight,
It shrinks not, but with calm delight
Can live, and look on Thee!
The spirits that surround Thy throne
May bear the burning bliss;
But that is surely theirs alone,
Since they have never, never known
A fallen world like this.
O how shall I, whose native sphere
Is dark, whose mind is dim,
Before the Ineffable appear,
And on my naked spirit bear
That uncreated beam?
There is a way for man to rise
To that sublime abode:
An offering and a sacrifice,
A Holy Spirit’s energies,
An Advocate with God.
These, these prepare us for the sight
Of holiness above;
The sons of ignorance and night,
May dwell in the eternal Light,
Through the eternal Love.
Indeed the angels said He would return in the same manner, and this confirmed what Jesus Himself had taught the disciples, but no-where did He or they explain what He would look like, and clearly... He looked different after His resurrection than He had before He died.
Now that He has been seated in glory with the Father, it is reasonable to suspect He may look different again.
Remember what happened to Moses after only forty days with God in Mount Horeb? His face shone so brightly he had to cover it before the Israelites could bear to look at him. And that was the Old Covenant glory!
Eternal Light! eternal Light!
How pure the soul must be
When, placed within Thy searching sight,
It shrinks not, but with calm delight
Can live, and look on Thee!
The spirits that surround Thy throne
May bear the burning bliss;
But that is surely theirs alone,
Since they have never, never known
A fallen world like this.
O how shall I, whose native sphere
Is dark, whose mind is dim,
Before the Ineffable appear,
And on my naked spirit bear
That uncreated beam?
There is a way for man to rise
To that sublime abode:
An offering and a sacrifice,
A Holy Spirit’s energies,
An Advocate with God.
These, these prepare us for the sight
Of holiness above;
The sons of ignorance and night,
May dwell in the eternal Light,
Through the eternal Love.
Very nice dragonfly! Thank you for posting that.
Also, Pelaides, one should keep in mind that angels obviously do not see the way natural man sees things because they are Spirit. So if you believe the two andres-men of Acts 1:11 are holy angels then why would they not already "see" according to the Spirit and Testimony of Yeshua? In addition it is we that are to become "like the angels" in the resurrection, not them like unto us as we are now: therefore they surely do not mean "eyesight" as the natural man understands sight, eyesight, or ocular-visual vision. And in the case of the apostles Yeshua did return the way he was taken up even according to the same author who penned both the Acts and the Gospel of Luke:
Luke 24:51 KJV
51. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted [GSN#1339 diistemi] from them, and carried up into heaven.
Original Strong's Ref. #1339
Romanized diistemi
Pronounced dee-is'-tay-mee
from GSN1223 and GSN2476; to stand apart, i.e. (reflexively) to remove, intervene:
KJV--go further, be parted, after the space of.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #1339
1339 // diisthmi // diistemi // dee-is'-tay-mee //
from 1223 and 2476 ; v
AV - the space of ... after 1, go further 1, be parted 1; 3
1) to place separately, put asunder, disjoin
2) to stand apart, to part, depart
Acts 2:1-3 KJV
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them cloven [GSN#1266 diamerizo] tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Original Strong's Ref. #1266
Romanized diamerizo
Pronounced dee-am-er-id'-zo
from GSN1223 and GSN3307; to partition thoroughly (literally in distribution, figuratively in dissension):
KJV--cloven, divide, part.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #1266
1266 // diamerizw // diamerizo // dee-am-er-id'-zo //
from 1223 and 3307 ; v
AV - part 6, divide 5, cloven 1; 12
1) to cleave asunder, cut in pieces
2) to be divided into opposing parts, to be at variance, in dissension
3) to distribute
Acts 2:3 ASV
3. And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, [GSN#1266 diamerizo] like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them.
Yeshua says to his disciples and to all, which includes us, to have this mindset:
Mark 13:31-37 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
From the day wherein you entered into the Yeshua faith and first read this passage you were put on watch by the Master.
You are the porter of the door of the house of God, (you are no more your own) while the Master is away in a far journey.
Therefore test the spirits as we are admonished, (1 John 4:1) so that you not end up sipping your cup of tea with an antichrist.
And Yeshua did, does, and will return the same way; but to each in his or her own appointed times.
Also, Pelaides, one should keep in mind that angels obviously do not see the way natural man sees things because they are Spirit. So if you believe the two andres-men of Acts 1:11 are holy angels then why would they not already "see" according to the Spirit and Testimony of Yeshua? In addition it is we that are to become "like the angels" in the resurrection, not them like unto us as we are now: therefore they surely do not mean "eyesight" as the natural man understands sight, eyesight, or ocular-visual vision. And in the case of the apostles Yeshua did return the way he was taken up even according to the same author who penned both the Acts and the Gospel of Luke:
Luke 24:51 KJV
51. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted [GSN#1339 diistemi] from them, and carried up into heaven.
Original Strong's Ref. #1339
Romanized diistemi
Pronounced dee-is'-tay-mee
from GSN1223 and GSN2476; to stand apart, i.e. (reflexively) to remove, intervene:
KJV--go further, be parted, after the space of.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #1339
1339 // diisthmi // diistemi // dee-is'-tay-mee //
from 1223 and 2476 ; v
AV - the space of ... after 1, go further 1, be parted 1; 3
1) to place separately, put asunder, disjoin
2) to stand apart, to part, depart
Acts 2:1-3 KJV
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them cloven [GSN#1266 diamerizo] tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Original Strong's Ref. #1266
Romanized diamerizo
Pronounced dee-am-er-id'-zo
from GSN1223 and GSN3307; to partition thoroughly (literally in distribution, figuratively in dissension):
KJV--cloven, divide, part.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #1266
1266 // diamerizw // diamerizo // dee-am-er-id'-zo //
from 1223 and 3307 ; v
AV - part 6, divide 5, cloven 1; 12
1) to cleave asunder, cut in pieces
2) to be divided into opposing parts, to be at variance, in dissension
3) to distribute
Acts 2:3 ASV
3. And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, [GSN#1266 diamerizo] like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them.
Yeshua says to his disciples and to all, which includes us, to have this mindset:
Mark 13:31-37 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
From the day wherein you entered into the Yeshua faith and first read this passage you were put on watch by the Master.
You are the porter of the door of the house of God, (you are no more your own) while the Master is away in a far journey.
Therefore test the spirits as we are admonished, (1 John 4:1) so that you not end up sipping your cup of tea with an antichrist.
And Yeshua did, does, and will return the same way; but to each in his or her own appointed times.
I much appreciate the simplicity and clarity with which you link scripture together. Frequently you confirm what I'd already understood.That common factor is one of the reasons I commenced the quote at Matthew 24:45 and underlined it. There is only one other place that statement is recorded in the Gospel accounts and it contains the the other half of the Parable of the Ten Virgins:
Luke 12:34-46 KJV
34. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35. Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36. And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. [Revelation 3:20]
37. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41. Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46. The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Matthew 24:45 = Luke 12:42 ~
Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
3 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
What do you make of verse 14, please?
Jesus will return to everyone at the same time,Luke 21:27 "And then they shall see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory".daq said:Very nice dragonfly! Thank you for posting that.
Also, Pelaides, one should keep in mind that angels obviously do not see the way natural man sees things because they are Spirit. So if you believe the two andres-men of Acts 1:11 are holy angels then why would they not already "see" according to the Spirit and Testimony of Yeshua? In addition it is we that are to become "like the angels" in the resurrection, not them like unto us as we are now: therefore they surely do not mean "eyesight" as the natural man understands sight, eyesight, or ocular-visual vision. And in the case of the apostles Yeshua did return the way he was taken up even according to the same author who penned both the Acts and the Gospel of Luke:
Luke 24:51 KJV
51. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted [GSN#1339 diistemi] from them, and carried up into heaven.
Original Strong's Ref. #1339
Romanized diistemi
Pronounced dee-is'-tay-mee
from GSN1223 and GSN2476; to stand apart, i.e. (reflexively) to remove, intervene:
KJV--go further, be parted, after the space of.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #1339
1339 // diisthmi // diistemi // dee-is'-tay-mee //
from 1223 and 2476 ; v
AV - the space of ... after 1, go further 1, be parted 1; 3
1) to place separately, put asunder, disjoin
2) to stand apart, to part, depart
Acts 2:1-3 KJV
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them cloven [GSN#1266 diamerizo] tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Original Strong's Ref. #1266
Romanized diamerizo
Pronounced dee-am-er-id'-zo
from GSN1223 and GSN3307; to partition thoroughly (literally in distribution, figuratively in dissension):
KJV--cloven, divide, part.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #1266
1266 // diamerizw // diamerizo // dee-am-er-id'-zo //
from 1223 and 3307 ; v
AV - part 6, divide 5, cloven 1; 12
1) to cleave asunder, cut in pieces
2) to be divided into opposing parts, to be at variance, in dissension
3) to distribute
Acts 2:3 ASV
3. And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, [GSN#1266 diamerizo] like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them.
Yeshua says to his disciples and to all, which includes us, to have this mindset:
Mark 13:31-37 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
From the day wherein you entered into the Yeshua faith and first read this passage you were put on watch by the Master.
You are the porter of the door of the house of God, (you are no more your own) while the Master is away in a far journey.
Therefore test the spirits as we are admonished, (1 John 4:1) so that you not end up sipping your cup of tea with an antichrist.
And Yeshua did, does, and will return the same way; but to each in his or her own appointed times.
dragonfly said:
Hi dragonfly,
Your question is a little confusing because you ask about verse fourteen but have verse fifteen in bold and partly underlined. Before I answer as to verse fourteen, (because that answer pertains to much else) could you please clarify? For now I will answer as to what you have in bold and partly underlined from another thread which I think you may have recently read and leave it at that:
daq said:It is only natural to assume that all believers will be "raptured" at the same point in time. After all, those indeed "in Messiah" are one body of Messiah, (though different parts of the body). Likewise the disciples and all saints are symbolized as the "sheep of his fold" and this gives rise to a "flock mentality" or "herd mentality" in most things concerning the body of Messiah, (which is correct when it comes to the great congregation body). However, when it comes to the appointed times, the herd or flock mentality is not applicable because it is not all "100 sheep" which go astray and get loose from the pen at the same time but rather the one sheep which the Shepherd must go and "save" while the 99 stay safe and secure in the sheepfold pen. Thus it is also with the appointed times: each in his or her own appointed times, (and then a son is truly born into the kingdom regardless of physical gender). Paul speaks the same in somewhat of an allegory of the Bar Mitzvah:
Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
And in the same Epistle as quoted in the OP, (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) the same author pens the following, which concerns the same occasion or "appointed time" in the walk of every believer, which is the "Bematos tou Christou" or "Bema Seat" of the Messiah, the judge of the "quick" or "quickened" and the dead:
2 Corinthians 5:1-10 KJV
1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
So when he writes "to be absent from the body" he clearly intends the Bematos tou Christou in this context. It is not therefore "to be absent from the body" as when the body physically dies, or as in physical death, but rather at some time BEFORE the physical death of the body because of the passage quoted in the OP. Thus the Bema Seat judgment comes BEFORE the physical death of the physical body. Paulos completes the passage revealing to the reader that he already knows the TERROR OF THE LORD:
2 Corinthian 5:10-11a KJV
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11a. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;
This is why the Parousia of Messiah is always "imminent" in the writings; for it concerns the day which no man knows, but the Father only, and it is to each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). Yeshua teaches the same concerning the kingdom of God in the "Parable of the Pounds" because they thought that the kingdom of God was about to appear "in full wealth, fatness, riches, and full glory" immediately:
Luke 19:11 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately [GSN#3916 parachrema + GSN#3195 mello] appear.
Luke 19:11 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
11. Akouonton de auton tauta prostheis eipenparabolen dia to engus einai Ierousalem auton kaidokein autous hoti parachrema mellei he basileia touTheou anafainesthai.
Original Strong's Ref. #3916
Romanized parachrema
Pronounced par-akh-ray'-mah
from GSN3844 and GSN5536 (in its original sense); at the thing itself, i.e. instantly:
KJV--forthwith, immediately, presently, straightway, soon.
GSN#5536 "chrema" concerns wealth, fatness, richness, "cream" ~
Original Strong's Ref. #5536
Romanized chrema
Pronounced khray'-mah
something useful or needed, i.e. wealth, price:
KJV--money, riches.
The word "mellei" underlined above is GSN#3195 "mello" ~
Original Strong's Ref. #3195
Romanized mello
Pronounced mel'-lo
a strengthened form of GSN3199 (through the idea of expectation); to attend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation):
KJV--about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.
They thought that the kingdom of God was about to come, ("mello-mellei") and that it was to arrive "parachrema" which is to say "in the full wealth-fatness-richness-riches" of it. However, the Master tells them differently, and in the same passage each servant is called up before him INDIVIDUALLY in his own appointed time:
Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
It is individual and personal just as is the whole Gospel of Yeshua Christou.
And the mow`ed-appointment is to each in his or her own appointed times …
Hi Pelaides,
Pelaides said:
Surely God has a sense of humor! Dragonfly had no clue what you were going to post. I had no clue what you were going to post. The only one beside yourself who knew what you were going to post was God. Yet dragonfly rebutted your statement before you even posted it by quoting from the Luke 19 "Parable of the Pounds" which clearly establishes the fact that every one of us is called up to give account each in his or her own appointed times. If I were you I might take this sudden turn of events as a sign from both God and his Word which clearly disputes your theory of an "all at once" Parousia of Messiah. And I guess that is probably just me, but likewise know that all of the signs are supernal and therefore pass right on by the carnal man as he goes along his merry way on the lookout for literal physical signs in the literal sun, literal blood red moons, and literal stars, and literal heavens: not understanding that the kingdom of heaven is within him, and all around him, every single day as he walks along his merry way.
Luke 19:15-20 KJV
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
SOLA SCRIPTURA !
Hi daq,
I have heard from a Christian of Hebrew origin here, that many of Jesus' parables were telling 'stories' that had their beginning in the history of the people, which they would have recognised. Have you heard of this before?
The reason I mention it is because it makes so much sense. One glaring example of this is Paul's choice of words in Romans 11:15, which appear to be straight out of Luke 15:24, 32. Thus, I have been on the lookout for these parallels for quite a while. While feeling that I lack insight into the way incidents in Israelite history were alluded to in their cultural setting, I've nevertheless become painfully aware of the many clues which were littered throughout the history, down the centuries, which made it an act of the will to deny Messiah when He finally came to them, declaring Himself.
So ... when Christians reading parables do not twig that Jesus is talking about Himself or God the Father, as well as the people against whom some of the parables were told, I am mystified. Not that I have all the answers as you know, but some connections do leap off the page unexpectedly, too.
I was referring to Luke 19 because it seems so obvious the Lord is preparing His disciples for their role after He ascends - although they have not yet taken in that he is even going to die, and are genuinely unable to process the concept of His forthcoming resurrection, either. I asked about v 14 because it seems to be out of place, in that I don't recognise the event in those terms, It is, though, very like Matt 21:40, 41.
I have heard from a Christian of Hebrew origin here, that many of Jesus' parables were telling 'stories' that had their beginning in the history of the people, which they would have recognised. Have you heard of this before?
The reason I mention it is because it makes so much sense. One glaring example of this is Paul's choice of words in Romans 11:15, which appear to be straight out of Luke 15:24, 32. Thus, I have been on the lookout for these parallels for quite a while. While feeling that I lack insight into the way incidents in Israelite history were alluded to in their cultural setting, I've nevertheless become painfully aware of the many clues which were littered throughout the history, down the centuries, which made it an act of the will to deny Messiah when He finally came to them, declaring Himself.
So ... when Christians reading parables do not twig that Jesus is talking about Himself or God the Father, as well as the people against whom some of the parables were told, I am mystified. Not that I have all the answers as you know, but some connections do leap off the page unexpectedly, too.
I was referring to Luke 19 because it seems so obvious the Lord is preparing His disciples for their role after He ascends - although they have not yet taken in that he is even going to die, and are genuinely unable to process the concept of His forthcoming resurrection, either. I asked about v 14 because it seems to be out of place, in that I don't recognise the event in those terms, It is, though, very like Matt 21:40, 41.
Pelaides said:
Does He return "in a cloud" or in clouds or...both? The question really should be...what, or who, are the clouds in whom He returns?
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The many "two witnesses" are a great cloud of witnesses and that is the cloud (singular usage of a plural meaning) in whom He returns. It is rendered "In a cloud" in Luke but is shown as "in clouds" in Matthew, Mark and Revelation.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
So then when we read the following we see the true meaning. If we are spiritually living (alive) we are caught up in the great cloud of witnesses to meet the Lord "in the air" which is...in spiritual bodies (not flying up into the atmosphere).
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
As for it happening at one time.....I too see the event taught in Thessalonians to be....an event that happens at the seventh trump.
You are astute dragonfly. That one verse, (Luke 19:14) tends to keep the full understanding of the parable from those who care not to pay attention to details. The understanding comes from a deeper sod level understanding of the human being and the parables concerning man according to the make-up of his image in the way he is created. You do understand that the Luke 19 parable is the same parable, (but a slightly different version) as the "Parable of the Talents" in Matthew 25 correct? Believe it or not they must be combined. However, the Parable of the Ten Virgins does not end but rather continues straight into the Parable of the Talents which completes the entire Matthew 25 chapter, (in other words it is all one "great parable" which flows from Matthew 24 without a true break in the narrative). The Parable of the Sower also plays a part in the understanding of the Pounds and the Talents because the one wherein the seed falls upon the good soil bears verily an hundredfold, and sixtyfold, and thirtyfold, (but in the Gospel of Mark it is one thirtyfold, and one sixtyfold, and one an hundredfold). Thus the one is three like Simon Petros son of Yochanan, Simon bar-Yonah, and Kephas, (or perhaps more like Petros, Markos, Paulosdragonfly said:
). However, before I would go any further with this, if you have some comments from your "Christian friend of Hebrew origin" I would enjoy hearing them whether from you or that friend if he or she is still around. Isn't there an eighth trumpet?
Hi daq,
I've just read your post, and probably need to do a bit of chewing. Key word 'sod'.
My "Christian friend of Hebrew origin" is still around, but does not post on forums. It's a while since I've seen that one face to face, so... there is not much I can add, except you may be more right about Talmud than I can confirm or refute, although this is not someone who was brought up as an orthodox Jew of any shade whatever. His study of Talmud was as an adjunct to Bible study, and I think it was a long time ago, now.
Hi daq,
I've just read your post, and probably need to do a bit of chewing. Key word 'sod'.
My "Christian friend of Hebrew origin" is still around, but does not post on forums. It's a while since I've seen that one face to face, so... there is not much I can add, except you may be more right about Talmud than I can confirm or refute, although this is not someone who was brought up as an orthodox Jew of any shade whatever. His study of Talmud was as an adjunct to Bible study, and I think it was a long time ago, now.
I wonder about this. Why would they be the younger brother and not the older?Romans 11:15 is closer to the conversation at hand because it deals
Hear, O Israel, the congregation shall bring two kids of the goats for a sin offering. Yet the elder brother serves the Father in perfection, lo, so many eons, neither transgressed he at any time the commandment of the Father. Likewise the elder son is ever with the Father, and all that the Father has belongs to the elder son: yet never was there even a kid goat offered up for him, (for never once transgressed he at any time the commandment of the Father). Now therefore, fellow younger brethren, will you not offer up even one qeren-mitsa`iyrah kid of the goats for your elder brother to cheer up his countenance? He is merely a little unsettled: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Surely then he will settle into your abode with the Father. What a happy house it would be! :lol:dragonfly said:
Everyone:
This thread has been edited in order to remove personal attacks.
Debate the topic, but leave out the personal attacks.
This thread has been edited in order to remove personal attacks.
Debate the topic, but leave out the personal attacks.
Hi daq,
That was a good answer!
You won't be surprised that I had a slightly different take on it.
I had registered that the father had divided his living to both His sons, and that that meant the elder brother had received a double portion - in a way, making the father totally dependent on him. However, it seemed to me that the younger son had much better understood that he was now free to leave. (Or was he? I am probably not well enough acquainted with the expectation within an Israelite/Jewish family. I know that the first son would be expected to stay until he received his inheritance - 'Let me first bury my father'.) But it seemed to me by comparison, that if the elder brother had 'come of age', he would not still be working in the fields with the servants, with the childish attitude which erupted when his father entreated him to join the party for his younger brother.
Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father'
But your quote from Psalm 2 kinda puts that in a different perspective, because the elder son does not have that freedom (it seems) to do what he likes with his inheritance. One can sympathise with his irritation that his very own brother had now made himself dependent on the older brother, even being willing to give up his rights as a son in order to receive adequate provision for the humble lifestyle of a servant for the rest of his days if necessary.
As I write, I can see the comparison more clearly - that in fact, the elder brother had it right from the start. He was the one who would be making the sacrifice for his younger brother's indiscretions, and no-one, it seemed, was going to thank him for it. Even though he was 'lord of all', he was still being managed by his father and at the mercy of his father's enormous love for the son who went missing.
Joseph springs to mind, and how harshly Jacob felt the loss of Rachel's first son to him.
You absolutely loaded your reply with good things. More than a snack....
Similar threads
