Neither shall they say Look here! or Look there!

[Pelaides]

DAQ!where for art thou? come back and fighteth like a man!Gird up thou loins and be not afraid.

 

[ENOCH2010]

DAQ!where for art thou? come back and fighteth like a man!Gird up thou loins and be not afraid.

Don't encourage him, I couldn't understand nothing he wrote. :wacko:

 

[dragonfly]

DAQ!where for art thou? come back and fighteth like a man!Gird up thou loins and be not afraid.

Don't encourage him, I couldn't understand nothing he wrote. :wacko:

Well, I could, and it's a bit of shame that instead of trying to learn something from someone who has been given certain insights as to how to read scripture with the eternal permeating every jot and tittle of understanding to be apprehended, people who 'couldn't understand nothing he wrote' jumped to the conclusion that whatever he wrote was invalidated by their inability to see what he had seen.

This is the very trouble Jesus had with His disciples time and again - like when he said 'Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees', and they thought that because He mentioned yeast (that is the modern word for 'leaven') He must be referring to bread.

If you are stumped just as the disciples were, what is missing?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well, I could, and it's a bit of shame that instead of trying to learn something from someone who has been given certain insights as to how to read scripture with the eternal permeating every jot and tittle of understanding to be apprehended, people who 'couldn't understand nothing he wrote' jumped to the conclusion that whatever he wrote was invalidated by their inability to see what he had seen.

This is the very trouble Jesus had with His disciples time and again - like when he said 'Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees', and they thought that because He mentioned yeast (that is the modern word for 'leaven') He must be referring to bread.

If you are stumped just as the disciples were, what is missing?

I see more of the hyper-allegorism of the Alexandrian fathers in daq than I see the veiled teachings of Jesus. The problem with that approach is that it creates a disconnect between the spirit and the word, which allows you to make the bible say anything you want. Not everything in the bible is meant to be allegorized. In fact, very little is. Typology is a different matter.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

I think I must read daq's posts with a different mindset, because I usually learn something, or am informed about a connection I had not seen before. I am not bothered about labeling the different aspects of his comments into categories. I am listening to the meaning he is trying to point up. That does not mean I see everything he sees. I don't need to; but I may glimpse something which I can pursue, as in 'the pursuit of God'. I am more interested in being in agreement with Him, than with anyone else.

 

[whirlwind]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

I think I must read daq's posts with a different mindset, because I usually learn something, or am informed about a connection I had not seen before. I am not bothered about labeling the different aspects of his comments into categories. I am listening to the meaning he is trying to point up. That does not mean I see everything he sees. I don't need to; but I may glimpse something which I can pursue, as in 'the pursuit of God'. I am more interested in being in agreement with Him, than with anyone else.

Dragonfly....you are a joy and a wonderful example. It is always a pleasure to read your posts.

I too don't see everything he sees (much is over my head) but I do catch glimpses of things that enlighten me.

 

[Pelaides]

Dragonfly....you are a joy and a wonderful example. It is always a pleasure to read your posts.

I too don't see everything he sees (much is over my head) but I do catch glimpses of things that enlighten me.

I see that all of you guys must belong to the same cult.

I see more of the hyper-allegorism of the Alexandrian fathers in daq than I see the veiled teachings of Jesus. The problem with that approach is that it creates a disconnect between the spirit and the word, which allows you to make the bible say anything you want. Not everything in the bible is meant to be allegorized. In fact, very little is. Typology is a different matter.

I am in complete agreement with that statement.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Well, I could, and it's a bit of shame that instead of trying to learn something from someone who has been given certain insights as to how to read scripture with the eternal permeating every jot and tittle of understanding to be apprehended, people who 'couldn't understand nothing he wrote' jumped to the conclusion that whatever he wrote was invalidated by their inability to see what he had seen.

This is the very trouble Jesus had with His disciples time and again - like when he said 'Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees', and they thought that because He mentioned yeast (that is the modern word for 'leaven') He must be referring to bread.

If you are stumped just as the disciples were, what is missing?

The words of Jesus about the leaven of the pharisees' is not that hard to understand, everybody agrees to the meaning of that Scripture. Daq would come out with words that meant nothing to the majority of people on the forum, I can only judge the things he says according to the what's written in the Bible. It says our spirit would agree with his spirit, if the words are true, and my spirit would not let me agree with his, so I have to disagree with his words. To me his teaching was of gnostic origin, the gnostic' thought they had some kind of special knowledge about the Word and only they knew the true meaning to the Scriptures.

 

[dragonfly]

Dragonfly....you are a joy and a wonderful example. It is always a pleasure to read your posts.

Thank you. ^_^

The words of Jesus about the leaven of the pharisees' is not that hard to understand, everybody agrees to the meaning of that Scripture.

My point is........ that when Jesus said what He said the disciples, in His natural way, knowing the meaning He was attaching to His choice of words, the disciples did not know what He was talking about. And their attempt to understand Him was nowhere close.

The fact is, not everyone 'agrees to the meaning of the Scripture'. It takes both the Holy Spirit and faith, to accept that it is more right to agree with Jesus, than with the disciples. For instance, if you were being persecuted, would you be willing to die for Jesus' explanation to the disciples?

The reason I ask, is because this is a good test for any teacher to ask himself: is what I am teaching worth dying for?

Daq would come out with words that meant nothing to the majority of people on the forum

You know, I don't speak Greek or Hebrew either. Didn't you notice that he always provided the English interpretation right beside the word in the other language, and then showed exactly what Strong's (and some times, other dictionaries) said? Basically, that could be called spoonfeeding.

I don't know how you can say it was difficult to follow, when he had already done all the hard work of researching different texts, and considering how different scriptures fit together between the Old and New Testaments.

I can only judge the things he says according to the what's written in the Bible. It says our spirit would agree with his spirit, if the words are true, and my spirit would not let me agree with his,

I don't think the Bible does say that. It says that the Holy Spirit will witness to the truth. That is not the same as your spirit.

Your spirit is supposed to be agreeing with the Holy Spirit whether it feels like it or not.

And I hope you can see there is a BIG problem if a person does not have the Holy Spirit at all, because the Holy Spirit is constantly trying to show us what God means by His words; we are free to accept them or reject them, even when we have received His testimony that the words are true.

To me his teaching was of gnostic origin, the gnostic' thought they had some kind of special knowledge about the Word and only they knew the true meaning to the Scriptures.

The reason I disagree with you on this point is that daq frequently reminded his readers that Jesus is the light of the world. This one point alone is opposed to the gnostic concept of God as being hidden and unknowable. The fact is that God came as the last Adam and lived in a very knowable way, being acclaimed by His disciples as having 'the words of eternal life'. As Paul said of the crucifixion, 'this thing was not done in a corner'. The whole New Testament is jammed with God's revelation of Himself to the world through Jesus Christ His Son - which revelation is denied by gnosticism.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't know how you can say it was difficult to follow, when he had already done all the hard work of researching different texts, and considering how different scriptures fit together between the Old and New Testaments.

It is difficult to follow because the holy spirit doesn't bear witness with it.

I don't think the Bible does say that. It says that the Holy Spirit will witness to the truth. That is not the same as your spirit.

Your spirit is supposed to be agreeing with the Holy Spirit whether it feels like it or not.

I think we should all be able to agree and know that our spirit has been spawned from the holy spirit. When it speaks, my spirit resonates.

The reason I disagree with you on this point is that daq frequently reminded his readers that Jesus is the light of the world. This one point alone is opposed to the gnostic concept of God as being hidden and unknowable. The fact is that God came as the last Adam and lived in a very knowable way, being acclaimed by His disciples as having 'the words of eternal life'. As Paul said of the crucifixion, 'this thing was not done in a corner'. The whole New Testament is jammed with God's revelation of Himself to the world through Jesus Christ His Son - which revelation is denied by gnosticism.

Gnostics think that they have special illumination, or gnosis. It is an elistist spirit that makes a separation between enlightened Christians, and common ones. My rule for screening gnostic spirits is to discern if their words glorify Christ by bearing the burdens of others (serving others). Simplicity and clarity serves the needs of others because it actually helps them to see how to live a more godly life. Obfuscation in the form of heavy allegorism and words multiplied endlessly only serve the ego and needs of the author, IMO. Sometimes this is just due to ignorance; sometimes to a gnostic spirit, which really is a demonic spirit whose sole purpose is to lead away from Christ and towards itself.

 

[Pelaides]

Don't encourage him, I couldn't understand nothing he wrote. :wacko:

I dont think he wanted you to understand what he was writing.It made him feel superior.

 

[dragonfly]

I dont think he wanted you to understand what he was writing.It made him feel superior.

That is really unfair! :huh: Couldn't it be just as much that a person who didn't understand felt inferior?

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

When it speaks, my spirit resonates.

'I think we should all be able to agree and know that our spirit has been spawned from the holy spirit.'

I believe I had 'a spirit' before I received the Holy Spirit. That spirit which gives one - body and soul - that fallen life - for want of a more accurate term - is joined to the Holy Spirit in fellowship, when that spirit has adjusted its relationship to God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (I am not going to start talking about repentance, 'salvation', right attitudes or more ....) So, when the Holy Spirit speaks, everyone's spirit 'resonates', even if it is in bondage to other spirits already, and not in right relationship with God through faith.

The difference in a Christian, is that they have made a conscious decision to be in agreement with God about everything.

That's why when anyone posts about the word of God - Christ is the word of God - it amazes me that anyone reading posts about 'the word of God' can say they are about something other than Christ - the embodiment of God's entire heart for mankind.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I believe I had 'a spirit' before I received the Holy Spirit. That spirit which gives one - body and soul - that fallen life - for want of a more accurate term - is joined to the Holy Spirit in fellowship, when that spirit has adjusted its relationship to God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (I am not going to start talking about repentance, 'salvation', right attitudes or more ....) So, when the Holy Spirit speaks, everyone's spirit 'resonates', even if it is in bondage to other spirits already, and not in right relationship with God through faith.

The difference in a Christian, is that they have made a conscious decision to be in agreement with God about everything.

That's why when anyone posts about the word of God - Christ is the word of God - it amazes me that anyone reading posts about 'the word of God' can say they are about something other than Christ - the embodiment of God's entire heart for mankind.

Yes, before coming to Christ you had a spirit. A dead spirit, as a matter of fact, that was (is) forever separated from GOD. We receive a new spirit when we come to Christ. It is a new birth, not a makeover of a dead spirit. So I have to disagree with you that everyone's spirit resonates when the holy spirit speaks.

There are many who speak in the name of Christ and quote his word. The spirit is the only thing that enables us to distinguish who is speaking GOD's words in truth and who is speaking them in error. It is not a matter of agreement; it is a matter of witness. His sheep hear his voice and follow him. They will not follow another even though the sound might resemble the shepherd's voice.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

not a makeover of a dead spirit

Then how do you account for Paul's exhortation to the Corinthans in 2:7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves ​

​

from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.​

​

?​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

Then how do you account for Paul's exhortation to the Corinthans in 2:7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves ​

​

from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.​

​

?​

Is there not spiritual wickedness in the world that we need to cleanse ourselves from continually? Words, images, actions of others obeying spiritual wickedness that pollute our minds.

 

[dragonfly]

Is there not spiritual wickedness in the world that we need to cleanse ourselves from continually? Words, images, actions of others obeying spiritual wickedness that pollute our minds.

I suppose that is one way of interpreting it, but the use of 'ourselves' ties in with 1 John 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

These seem to be different from James' 1:27 exhortation to keep oneself 'unspotted from the world.

 

[veteran]

Where are any of the following statements of Messiah either changed, or altered, or rescinded, or expounded, or already having been fulfilled, or explained away? There are indeed many statements which are literal and can only be understood literally. In light of this fact I hope that the "literalist only" disciples, students, and interpreters will feel free to sound off and provide some answers as to how these passages are to be incorporated into ones eschatological doctrines keeping in mind the contexts in which they are written.

Matthew 24:22-28 KJV
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Matthew 24:35 KJV
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:20-23 KJV
20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mark 13:31 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 17:20-25 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

....
Question: If these statements are always true then how can it be that Yeshua returns in a physical body?

Your interpretation of those Scripture comparisons is misleading and won't work.

In the Matt.24:23-26 and Mark 13:20-23 and Luke 17 Scriptures, Jesus is giving a warning about a FAKE attempt to setup His coming Kingdom and Presence here on earth, all PRIOR to His actual return that He ALSO mentions there (Luke 17:24; Matt.24:27; Mark 13:26).

There are many Scriptures about Christ's second coming as a literal return (Acts 1; Zech.14; 1 John 3; Rev.1; John 14; 1 Thess.4-5, etc.).


Within the Luke 17 Scripture, Jesus is giving the same warnings of a false kingdom attempting to supplant His true Kingdom to come, along with a false one who heads that attempt:

Luke 17:20-24
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!' or, 'lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
22 And He said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, 'See here'; or, 'see there': go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day."
(KJV)

The idea of the Kingdom of God not coming with occular vision is about human vision with physical fleshy eyes. It's simply because when God's Kingdom comes with the beginning of Christ return we all will be changed at the twinkling of an eye, and will no longer 'see' with our present occular type vision. We will see with our spiritual vision and eyes, which is how all eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds as per Rev.1.

In Luke 17:21 Jesus says when God's Kingdom comes, they will NOT be saying, "Lo here!", or "lo there!". It's because His Kingdom is NOT of this present flesh world type of manifestation. In other words, it will NOT manfiest how those scribes and Pharisees of the Jews think because of their regarding it as a fleshy like kingdom of this present world time.

In Luke 17:22-23 Jesus then warns the days will come when His servants will want... to see it come but will not, because again, His Kingdom to come is not of the fleshy style of this present world time. And He then further warns that when the deceived, like those scribes and Pharisee types begin to say things like, "See here", or "see there", as IF His Kingdom has come DURING this present world, then do not follow them nor go after to them with believing them.

Then in final in Luke 17:24, Jesus gives a comparison sign of His literal coming with the idea of lightning shinning from one end of the heavens to the other. Because lightning is seen over such a wide scope of area, it being far above the earth in the atmosphere, He uses it as a comparison the 'seeing' His coming in the clouds with our spiritual body vision, and not our flesh eyes. I'm still talking about literal seeing here with the spiritual body, and not just some symbolic idea. On that day of His return all alive on the earth will be changed to the spiritual body. And that is going to be the sure way how we all... will know when Christ comes.

On a deeper note, what these Scriptures about those who will be claiming He has come, and to see His Kingdom here during this present world time, that is indirectly pointing to the coming of a false messiah, and Satan's host that will try to get you to fall for that trap which is to occur prior to Christ's return. That specifically is His warning in the Matt.24:23-26 and Mark 13:21-22 Scriptures.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Where are any of the following statements of Messiah either changed, or altered, or rescinded, or expounded, or already having been fulfilled, or explained away? There are indeed many statements which are literal and can only be understood literally. In light of this fact I hope that the "literalist only" disciples, students, and interpreters will feel free to sound off and provide some answers as to how these passages are to be incorporated into ones eschatological doctrines keeping in mind the contexts in which they are written.

Matthew 24:22-28 KJV
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Matthew 24:35 KJV
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:20-23 KJV
20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mark 13:31 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 17:20-25 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Critical Matthew statements that must be either believed, explained, or ignored:

1) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
2) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
3) Behold, I have told you before.
4) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
5) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Critical Mark statements that must be either believed, explained, or ignored:

1) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
2) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if possible, even the elect.
3) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
4) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Critical Luke statements that must be either believed, explained, or ignored:

1) The Kingdom of God does not come with observation:
2) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
3) The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

Question: When, if ever, do the following statements no longer apply? Scripture please!

1) The Kingdom of God does not come with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

2) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

3) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Question: If these statements are always true then how can it be that Yeshua returns in a physical body?

God will not return in a physical.

I am sure we don't agree on everything, but no doubt about this.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I suppose that is one way of interpreting it, but the use of 'ourselves' ties in with 1 John 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

These seem to be different from James' 1:27 exhortation to keep oneself 'unspotted from the world.

Yes we keep ourselves unspotted from the world by continually cleansing ourselves in the water of the word through the spirit. Even the priests who served the temple had to continually cleanse themselves from the sin-laden sacrifices they handled in the water-filled bronze basin, else they would have died.

 

[Pelaides]

God will not return in a physical.

I am sure we don't agree on everything, but no doubt about this.

?????????Would you care to elaborate?????