Never too far gone

[djstav]

You are twisting something into my words that is not there... unless you want to see it there.

I effectively said to look at the Bible without any preconceived notions or biases, but I did say to look at the Bible. People do sometimes read the Bible and miss God's message because they already believe something from their own previous experiences in churches or outside of churches. What I am saying is to take hold of the whole thing [what is written] as a little child. This is scriptural and means simply to do what a young child does before people have impressed their views [good or evil] on him. For you that is a difficult thing because you've already had your "Christian" and/or other experiences and made up your mind about things. You are biased.

Lot of people come to God at the first biased. They cannot really approach God closely until they left their biases behind. If they are unable to surrender to God all of those biases any progress possible for them will be limited by those biases.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Mark 10:15

What's the point of all of this, really, do you think any real God would need me to surrender my brain to it. Why? Why does your God need worship & praise so much. Any real God wouldn't need to be loved, because it is perfectly complete in love and need's nothing.

You just have to look at this logically for one minute and you'll see the cracks in your theology & spirituality. As for me being biased, remember l have been a believer, was I biased then. I doubt you'd say such thing's if I agreed with your beliefs. That's what it comes down to in the end, someone to share your unique perspective. On the other hand not one person here has even thought to investigate my beliefs, and I've not pushed them on to to anyone, but other's have pushed theirs on me.

 

[amadeus]

What's the point of all of this, really, do you think any real God would need me to surrender my brain to it. Why? Why does your God need worship & praise so much. Any real God wouldn't need to be loved, because it is perfectly complete in love and need's nothing.

You just have to look at this logically for one minute and you'll see the cracks in your theology & spirituality. As for me being biased, remember l have been a believer, was I biased then. I doubt you'd say such thing's if I agreed with your beliefs. That's what it comes down to in the end, someone to share your unique perspective. On the other hand not one person here has even thought to investigate my beliefs, and I've not pushed them on to to anyone, but other's have pushed theirs on me.

Again, my friend, you are the one who came here on a Christian forum with some idea or purpose in mind. And it was you who started this thread. Assuming you might really be interested in our answers I have jumped in with both feet.

I am not against logic in its place, but if we live for God at all it really is by faith as the scriptures say, rather than by any man's logic alone.

You say that God would not need this or that, but even if you believed in Him, how would know what He needed? Do you define God? You have done so. Since you don't believe in Him as you say, why do you argue from your definition of Him? I don't accept your definition so that leaves us at odds, doesn't it?

 

[djstav]

People insist that it is 'forever'...I don't find that at all.
I believe in The Refining Fire.

Yeah I know ByGrace that you think that everlasting hell fire is abhorrent, must be your empathy for your fellow beings.

 

[djstav]

Again, my friend, you are the one who came here on a Christian forum with some idea or purpose in mind. And it was you who started this thread. Assuming you might really interested in our answers I have jumped in with both feet.

I am not against logic in it's place, but if we live God at all it really is by faith as the scriptures say, rather than any man's logic alone.

You say that God would not need this or that, but even if you believed in Him, how would know what He needed? Do you define God? You have done so. Since you don't believe in Him as you say, why do you argue from your definition of Him? I don't accept your definition so that leaves us at odds, doesn't it?

I define God, you define God, other people define God. If God can't be defined then your holy book has no ground's to presume it knows who or what God wants.

 

[bbyrd009]

I define God, you define God, other people define God. If God can't be defined then your holy book has no ground's to presume it knows who or what God wants.

Amadeus called the Bible a Holy Book? i doubt it. and if you find any other (of your) presumptions in the Bible i'd like to see them

So anyway, why are you here then?

 

[djstav]

Amadeus called the Bible a Holy Book? i doubt it. and if you find any other (of your) presumptions in the Bible i'd like to see them

So anyway, why are you here then?

I've got no where else to go, here have a free pet.

 

[bbyrd009]

I've got no where else to go, here have a free pet.
View attachment 4081

so iow you are not really having conversations with anyone, right

 

[Episkopos]

Yeah I know ByGrace that you think that everlasting hell fire is abhorrent, must be your empathy for your fellow beings.

...which is a good thing. But it is also true. The lake of fire is called "the second death"....not the second torment.

We will see the "corpses" of those who rebelled against God. Corpses feel no pain.

 

[djstav]

so iow you are not really having conversations with anyone, right

Not until we are all on even footing. It's easy to hide behind your religion & pretend that you know something I don't.

 

[djstav]

...which is a good thing. But it is also true. The lake of fire is called "the second death"....not the second torment.

We will see the "corpses" of those who rebelled against God. Corpses feel no pain.

Revelation 14:9-11
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

 

[Episkopos]

Revelation 14:9-11
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

That is the ONLY verse that suggests that people will be tormented. But if you look at the context...it is meant for people who worship the beast or receive his mark.

So we are not talking about a person who has done bad things or just lived to excess.

We are talking of a spiritual bond with the devil.

When something like that happens...all bets are off the table.

 

[amadeus]

Not until we are all on even footing. It's easy to hide behind your religion & pretend that you know something I don't.

Some people may be hiding as you say, but likely what they hide behind is only a façade. But, some people have something that is real but unfortunately in spite of what you have said whatever vision you had was lacking anything real, no unbroken bones.

This may also be so unfortunately for many people who still call themselves Christians. There really is something more... but you have put up a blockade against even the possibility because of your bad experiences. If you really have a inkling of the Way to Him, it would require a humility that for you will at least appear as being more painful than your bad experiences... at least until you really were really able to see.

 

[djstav]

Funny how it says they will be tormented in the presence of God & the angels

Some people may be hiding as you say, but likely what they hide behind only a façade. But, some people have something that is real but unfortunately in spite of what you have said whatever vision you had was lacking anything real, no unbroken bones.

This may also be so unfortunately for many people who still call themselves Christians. There really is something more... but you have put up a blockade against even the possibility because of your bad experiences. If you really have a inkling of the Way to Him, it would require a humility that for you will at least appear as being more painful than your bad experiences... at least until you really were really able to see.

How can you see what you can't see exactly.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not until we are all on even footing. It's easy to hide behind your religion & pretend that you know something I don't.

ah, well fwiw the Bible will out those types pretty quick
have a good one

fwiw my first answer is "i see that we still aren't,"
but say something once, why say it again i guess
you might notice that your reply does not address my post at all,
or you have really just changed the subject again, something like that

 

[amadeus]

Funny how it says they will be tormented in the presence of God & the angels

Perhaps that is where you are now and/or have been... for you spoke of your torment as a follower of Christ. Where is God? Who are the angels and where are they? Where was Jesus before he became a man of flesh to suffer torment? Where was he when he was suffering torment. He was in whose presence?

How can you see what you can't see exactly.

The natural eye really is blind to God and the things of God. The only real Hope for men lies in the glimmer of Light given to every man. For you that glimmer has darkened rather than brightened, but it has not gone out completely... not yet.

 

[Matthias]

Why does God need a book?

God doesn’t need a book; man does.

Forget for a minute that it has ancient law's that are no longer useful, and many other thing's that are redundant (Like slavery) Now why a book exactly? Can't God just communicate his will to each of us and forget using a book that is 2000 years old.

The book is a witness.