NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[Zao is life]

What is your problem? Genesis 17:4 has the Hebrew Root word Goy H1471embedded in the actual Hebrew word used in Genesis 17:4, gō·w·yim that this word occurs 136 times in the OT and the usual translation of this word is nations. Your claim that Abraham was a Gentile is a false understanding on your part. Abraham walked with God and Noah before he left Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the earth that God said that He would show him.

Your argument is with yourself as you have, in my humble opinion, demonstrated a lack of understanding of the Hebrew Text that you have quoted.

It is pointless for me to continue this conversation.

Accusing me of "having a problem" is as ridiculous as claiming that the great grandfather of the Israelites and great-great grandfather of the Jews, was an Israelite and a Jew.

Try and make logical statements based on biblical facts and less on emotion and the things you'd like scripture to be teaching.

 

[covenantee]

All Israel is of Israel, only 1. If one is not Israel then they stopped being of Israel. God says they stop, thus non-Israel.

Paul: For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
You: All Israel is of Israel.

I believe Paul.

 

[Timtofly]

Paul: For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
You: All Israel is of Israel.

I believe Paul.

They stopped being of Israel. God cut them off, disowned them. Then destroyed them. They are not Israel.

 

[covenantee]

They stopped being of Israel. God cut them off, disowned them. Then destroyed them. They are not Israel.

Paul said that they "are of Israel".

I believe Paul.

 

[Timtofly]

Paul said that they "are of Israel".

I believe Paul.

Quote the verse.

 

[covenantee]

Quote the verse.

I've already quoted it, from the KJV.

Your turn to quote it, from the KJV.

 

[Zao is life]

They stopped being of Israel. God cut them off, disowned them. Then destroyed them. They are not Israel.

Timtofly I'm sorry but that's nonsense.

Where in the following words do you read "They (Israel) stopped being Israel"?:

"God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars;

I alone am left

and they are seeking my life!" But what was the divine response to him?

"I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal."

So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace."

Where do you read the above words? Is it before, or after you read the words:

"It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not ALL those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, nor are ALL the children Abraham's true descendants."

It's like this:

"On that day, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!'" -- Matthew 7:22-23.

Same principle, same root cause.​

 

[Zao is life]

Quote the verse.

He already quoted it. Then, like many others who post in these forums, you began proving that you do not believe the written Word by arguing against it.

 

[covenantee]

Timtofly I'm sorry but that's nonsense.

Hey bro, you coulda left out the "I'm sorry but".

He's espousing his own ideological antiScriptural nonsense, nothing more.

 

[Timtofly]

I've already quoted it, from the KJV.

Your turn to quote it, from the KJV.

"they are not all which are of"

You said: they "are all of"

You left out the word "not" then you just combined two points. Which is meaningless by itself. Of course "all of are all of". That is not the point. The majority are no longer Israel but in the torments of sheol, and will stand before the GWT as their next chance to be Israel again.

 

[covenantee]

"they are not all which are of"

You said: they "are all of"

You left out the word "not" then you just combined two points. Which is meaningless by itself. Of course "all of are all of". That is not the point. The majority are no longer Israel but in the torments of sheol, and will stand before the GWT as their next chance to be Israel again.

You're simply blind.

Here's my quote direct from the KJV:
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Get yourself some new spectacles.

No wonder your "doctrine" is chaos.

You can't even quote straight, so you can't even think straight.

 

[Timtofly]

Timtofly I'm sorry but that's nonsense.

Where in the following words do you read "They (Israel) stopped being Israel"?:

"God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars;

I alone am left

and they are seeking my life!" But what was the divine response to him?

"I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal."

So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace."

Where do you read the above words? Is it before, or after you read the words:

"It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not ALL those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, nor are ALL the children Abraham's true descendants."

It's like this:

"On that day, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!'" -- Matthew 7:22-23.

Same principle, same root cause.​

Last time I checked Scripture, those who die in their sin without redemption are sent to sheol. Now you are saying all of redeemed Israel are also in sheol and in torment. That is nonsense. If all are in sheol, then none are redeemed according to you. Certainly the dead in sheol are not currently in Paradise.

So who do you think are in sheol if you claim no one is?

Israel ended up in sheol when they stopped being Israel. The rich man was of Israel, and in sheol he lifted up his eyes being in torment, and no longer of Israel, but physically and spiritually dead.

Explain the difference between a natural branch and a wild branch when it comes to being of Israel spiritually. If a natural branch is cut off and dies cut off, when do you think they will be grafted back in prior to the GWT judgment?


If you all are going to argue that there is currently no difference and all are cut off and wild branches, then who is currently being born naturally into this tree differently than the rest of humanity? If there is no difference it does not mean all are natural branches automatically Redeemed. If there is no difference, that means no one is currently a natural branch and all have to come into the tree via the second birth.

God has not cast off Israel. It was Israel who rejected God instead of allowing for a smooth transition between the OT and the NT.

 

[Timtofly]

You're simply blind.

Here's my quote direct from the KJV:
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Get yourself some new spectacles.

No wonder your "doctrine" is chaos.

You can't even quote straight, so you can't even think straight.

The verse points out they are not Israel. That means they stopped being of Israel at some point.

Do you think they cannot be cut off?

Does God allow the wicked of Israel to enter eternal life without repentance after they were cut off?

 

[covenantee]

The verse points out they are not Israel. That means they stopped being of Israel at some point.

Do you think they cannot be cut off?

Does God allow the wicked of Israel to enter eternal life without repentance after they were cut off?

The verse does not point that out.

You've still got the quote wrong.

Come back when you've got it right.

If you can get it right.

 

[PinSeeker]

That means they stopped being of Israel at some point.

It means they never were of Israel... God's Israel, which is different from what it appears outwardly to be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

It means they never were of Israel... God's Israel, which is different from what it appears outwardly to be.

Grace and peace to you.

It can't mean anything until he can quote it correctly, and understand Paul's distinction between "all Israel" (saved Israel), and "of Israel" (unsaved Israel).

Which I have zero confidence that he can.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

AntiSemitism is certainly spreading throughout world ... a sign of the times.

 

[covenantee]

AntiSemitism is certainly spreading throughout world ... a sign of the times.

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[Zao is life]

Now you are saying all of redeemed Israel are also in sheol and in torment.

I never said any such thing. Redeemed Israel are those in Christ, the Redeemer.

 

[Zao is life]

Hey bro, you coulda left out the "I'm sorry but".

He's espousing his own ideological antiScriptural nonsense, nothing more.

Yes. He also lies about what I said or what I'm saying (which is only what scripture says, and what Paul said).