NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[Timtofly]

Christ is in Jacob according to the flesh. Jesus is the son of David, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob.

Jesus sits on the throne of David forever. David was a Jew. Jesus was born a Jew.

In Jacob's seed there were always many Gentiles too - all the tribes listed in the OP of this thread, who were not Jews.

Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph's children, were not Jews either.

So there are lot's of non-Jews in Jacob.

And if you are in Christ in the Spirit, then you are in Jacob.

If you are not in Christ, then even if your genetic ancestry can be traced through Judah or Benjamin or Levi back to Jacob (for those who are Jews), then you are broken off from Jacob (Israel) through your unbelief, despite your genetic ancestry being traced through Judah or Benjamin or Levi back to Jacob.

Paul's doctrine. Not the doctrine of so-called "Replacement Theologists".​

Why are you replacing the physical relationship with a spiritual one to get back to a physical relationship?

Being in Christ is not the same thing as being in Judah or being in Jacob.

Being in Christ is not an ethnicity.

Being of Judah and being of Jacob is an ethnicity.

There are no natural branches. Those of Jacob are just the same as wild branches.

Do you understand that only after the Second Coming is the restoration of Israel's ethnicity as being natural branches in Christ from birth.

 

[Zao is life]

Why are you replacing the physical relationship with a spiritual one to get back to a physical relationship?

Being in Christ is not the same thing as being in Judah or being in Jacob.

Being in Christ is not an ethnicity.

Being of Judah and being of Jacob is an ethnicity.

There are no natural branches. Those of Jacob are just the same as wild branches.

Do you understand that only after the Second Coming is the restoration of Israel's ethnicity as being natural branches in Christ from birth.

You've redefined the meaning of Paul's use of the metaphor of natural branches in an Olive tree, and built your understanding of eschatology on that new theology of yours.

 

[Timtofly]

You've redefined the meaning of Paul's use of the metaphor of natural branches in an Olive tree, and built your understanding of eschatology on that new theology of yours.

If that was so, you would have pointed it out.

Theology has redefined what Paul wrote. A natural branch is just that, natural from birth into existence. Your theology claims all are now natural branches, which is impossible.

I have no theology. Just pointing out what Paul wrote.

Paul claimed Israel would be restored as natural branches at the Second Coming.

"that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

This is fulfilled at the Second Coming. When Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives, is when Israel will be natural branches from physical birth again. Currently all of Jacob are in a state of being cut off, blindness in part. When the fulness of the Gentiles is complete, and the Second Coming realized, is when sin is taken away.

Some theology attributes this to the first coming. However Paul wrote this decades after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. The blindness in part is still referring to branches cut off. Now Jacob is in the same state as Gentiles. Salvation is offered to all equally regardless of one's natural birth. Being cut off is not the same as being a natural branch. That is the state of no longer being a natural branch.

 

[Zao is life]

If that was so, you would have pointed it out.

Theology has redefined what Paul wrote. A natural branch is just that, natural from birth into existence. Your theology claims all are now natural branches, which is impossible.

I have no theology. Just pointing out what Paul wrote.

Paul claimed Israel would be restored as natural branches at the Second Coming.

"that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

This is fulfilled at the Second Coming. When Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives, is when Israel will be natural branches from physical birth again. Currently all of Jacob are in a state of being cut off, blindness in part. When the fulness of the Gentiles is complete, and the Second Coming realized, is when sin is taken away.

Some theology attributes this to the first coming. However Paul wrote this decades after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. The blindness in part is still referring to branches cut off. Now Jacob is in the same state as Gentiles. Salvation is offered to all equally regardless of one's natural birth. Being cut off is not the same as being a natural branch. That is the state of no longer being a natural branch.

Why do people always have to bend and twist what is so obvious to make it mean something else, as you are now doing?

If some of the natural branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them (the remnant of the natural branches who were not broken off), and with them (the natural branches remnant) partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree -- Rom.11:17

Some of the natural branches are broken off and some are not.

The natural branches remnant not broken off remain natural branches. The natural branches broken off remain natural branches. They are not spirits. They were born into human bodies and are the natural descendants of Jacob.

Paul did not state anything about natural branches being restored as natural branches when Jesus returns. Your claim in that regard is 100% false. What Paul stated was that the Deliverer (Jesus) has come out of Zion and taken away their sins (and ours) and so any natural branch who repents of his or her unbelief will be grafted back into their own Olive tree again. It's been an ongoing thing since the Deliverer (Jesus) has come out of Zion and taken away their sins (and ours). The natural branches Paul defined as Jews and the unnatural branches grafted in he (Paul) defined as Gentiles.

Paul also stated elsewhere (in Galatians) that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, or male and female, but all are one in Christ.

Natural males are still natural males, and natural females are still natural females. Natural Jews (natural branches) are still natural Jews (branches) and natural Gentiles (not physically descended from Abraham, Isaac or Jacob) are still unnatural branches grafted in among the natural branches not broken off - and together in Christ they are Israel, while the natural branches broken off have been broken off.

I ask again, why do people always have to bend and twist what is so obvious to make it mean something else, as you are now doing?​

 

[Timtofly]

I ask again, why do people always have to bend and twist what is so obvious to make it mean something else, as you are now doing?

Because the symbolism of the olive tree represented the OT Covenant.

Unless you think the OT Covenant is still in full effect, then there is no olive tree with natural branches.

That is not twisting Scripture. That is the reality of "blindness in part". All of Jacob are now blind without faith from birth. They are the same as the Gentiles in that regards. That is why there is no difference. That is why it does not matter about one's ethnicity.

Unbelief is what makes them "cut off". Do you think ethnicity of Jacob is not totally in unbelief or do they loose belief during childhood? Being a natural branch is being born with belief already there. They would not have to be cut off.

The symbolism does not change reality. If you had an apple tree, and a branch was cut off, it would be nothing, and would not produce apples. Under the OT as long as a child remained in the bounds of the Covenant, they had belief. Under the NT, even those of Jacob cannot just produce fruit naturally. It is not that wild Olives or wild apple trees make sense still producing wild fruit. Being offspring does not make you one in Christ. Offspring of wild branches and cut off branches are still wild and not natural fruit.

Being in Christ under the OT Covenant was being a natural branch, that was their ethnicity. No one is naturally born into Christ, under the NT Covenant. Now it is a personal choice and the second birth. That is what "being grafted into" means.

Can you claim the second birth was a choice under the OT Covenant? Why would a natural branch need the second birth if they already were in belief?

Now under the NT, do you think every single natural branch gets cut off, and then needs to be grafted in? How is that any different than saying natural branches no longer exist? The point of being a natural branch is that you don't have to be cut off nor grafted in.

 

[Jack]

Luke 23
3 Then Pilate asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered him and said, "It is as you say."

 

[Zao is life]

Because the symbolism of the olive tree represented the OT Covenant.

The symbolism of the Olive tree does not represent the Old Testament covenant. It represents God's covenant with Abraham, and the root is Christ. The Old Testament covenant is a covenant of law which was does not annul the promise.

The natural branches of the Olive tree are Abraham's natural descendants. Christ is a natural branch acording to the flesh. The son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

[Timtofly]

The symbolism of the Olive tree does not represent the Old Testament covenant. It represents God's covenant with Abraham, and the root is Christ. The Old Testament covenant is a covenant of law which was does not annul the promise.

The natural branches of the Olive tree are Abraham's natural descendants. Christ is a natural branch acording to the flesh. The son of David, the son of Abraham.

If Abraham was not a Jew, then neither was he an Israelite. The NT Covenant was what Abraham was a part of.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

The whole symbolism about the Olive tree was that Israel was in Christ throughout the whole OT Covenant period, as long as they kept their side of the Covenant. If they left the agreement, they were cut off. They were no longer of Israel nor Israel.

Are you defending your OP with an idealistic approach or a realistic approach?

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid...."

"...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes."

The idealistic view is that Abraham is the Olive tree. The idealistic view is that Israel is cut off and cast off to never appear again. The idealistic view is that God is forever done with a physical Israel, and now deals with a spiritual church called Israel.

The realistic view is that after the fulness of the Gentiles is complete, God will remove the blindness as well as the physical bondage of sin, not with the return of the OT Covenant, but a New Covenant where Adam's curse is lifted and sin is no more. The realistic view is that Israel was the natural branches and a physical ethnicity where they were born into Christ and remained in Christ until they broke their side of the OT Covenant.

So for the sake of the gospel they are enemies. For the sake of being removed from Adam's transgression they are on equal terms with the NT church. Their faith was by sight via their works. Abraham's faith was in the promise of Jesus' first coming and the NT Covenant.

God dealt with Abram and gave him a new name by skipping over the whole OT Covenant. God dealt with Jacob giving him a new name that consisted of the OT Covenant that would come upon leaving Egypt. Abraham was not given the OT Covenant, Israel was through his direct descendants coming out of Egypt.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

The author of Hebrews pointed out that Abraham already understood through faith, the death, burial, and resurrection of the NT Covenant. That the test with Isaac, was a figure of Christ to come. That is the NT Covenant, not the OT Covenant.

The OT Covenant could not raise one from the dead. The OT Covenant could not offer eternal life. Under the OT Covenant, all redeemed prior to the Cross, had to wait in Abraham's bosom, even Abraham. They were physically released when Jesus said, "It is finished." That was the end of the OT Covenant by the tearing of the veil from top to bottom. Israel was not cast off, the OT economy was cast off. That is why Israel was acknowledged as natural branches, and the Gentiles were the wild branches grafted in. It only realistically works for that transition period. No one has continued as natural branches. Christ realistically has replaced the natural Olive Tree. No one is physically born into Christ. The Second birth has replaced the grafting in part, because all are equally adopted children into God's family. Many still hold to the idealism of the Olive Tree, yet refuse to see it return someday realistically.


Yet God is not finished with Israel. Israel as an ethnicity will be physically restored, this time out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and no longer under the OT Covenant, but their own Covenant that they will share with all of the other nations. Jesus will sit as King over Israel and the whole earth.

 

[Zao is life]

If Abraham was not a Jew, then neither was he an Israelite. The NT Covenant was what Abraham was a part of.

Abraham was not an Israelite. He was a Gentile who believed in God. He also actually believed God, and his faith was credited to him for righteousness even before he was circumcised. Abraham's grandson Jacob was named Israel. Israel was not a Jew, either. One of his sons became the patriarch of the Jews.

Abraham was not part of the N.T covenant. He had the promise that in his seed would come the One who would bring the New Covenant in His own blood.

Abraham believed in God and believed His Word, and his faith in the Word of God was credited to him for righteousness, before he was circumcised, 430 years before the old covenant of law was added.

The Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not broken off from Israel through their disobedience to the law. They are broken off through their unbelief of the Word of God.
​

These are God's covenants with Abraham and his descendants, in chronological historical order:-

1. The Abrahamic Covenant, promising Abraham and his descendants that in the seed of Abraham (Jesus) all the nations of the earth would be blessed.

2. The covenant of law (the Mosaic Covenant) given to all Israel, based on obedience to the law, which, IF they obeyed, they would be blessed, but if Israel disobeyed, he (they) would be cursed. It was broken by Israel.

3. The Davidic Covenant, promising that David's descendant would inherit the throne of David forever.

4. The New Covenant, ushered in by the blood of Jesus, who is THE (only) promised seed of Abraham.

THE seed of Abraham is Jesus.

It's all about GOD'S SON, not about ALL those who are naturally descended from Abraham "whether or not they believe the Word of God", but about GOD'S SON, who is THE WORD OF GOD, the seed of Abraham through Whom all the nations of the earth are blessed.

Not ALL the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob|Israel have part in the inheritance given to Abraham through His seed, who is Christ, but only those who believe in the Word of God and in the seed promised to Abraham, the way Abraham did:

Not however that the word of God has failed, for not all those of Israel are Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children. Some of the natural branches (descendants) of Israel (of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob|Israel) are broken off through their unbelief, but God has reserved a remnant of the natural descendants who do believe in Jesus, through whom the Israelite nation continues, and Gentiles are grafted in among the remnant. -- Rom.9:6-7; 11:5,17.
​

The Deliverer has come out of Zion, turning away ungodliness from Jacob and taking away their sins and our sins nearly 2,000 years ago, and IF the natural descendants who do not believe repent of their unbelief and place their faith in the Word of God like Abraham did, they will be grafted back into their own Olive tree again, because they are still loved for the sake of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Gentiles who believe are grafted in among the remnant of the natural seed.

So says the LORD, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also cast off ALL the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the LORD. -- Jeremiah 31:37

"I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, also in this present time a remnant according to the election of grace has come into being." -- Rom.11:4-5

The word of God has NOT failed, because not ALL those who are natural descendants of Israel belong to Israel; nor because they are the natural seed of Abraham are they ALL children. But, "In Isaac shall your Seed be called." That is, not the children of the flesh are children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for a seed. -- Rom.9:6-8

THE SEED OF THE PROMISE IS JESUS. Those who reject Jesus - the seed of the promise made to Abraham - are broken off from Israel. They do not belong to Israel, though they are naturally descended from Israel. Gentiles who believe are grafted in among the remnant of the natural descendants who believe.

It is 100% F-A-L-S-E doctrine to say that the natural descendants who are broken off through their unbelief are nevertheless still God's elect. God elect is Jesus and those who are in Him through faith in Him.​

 

[covenantee]

If Abraham was not a Jew, then neither was he an Israelite. The NT Covenant was what Abraham was a part of.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

The whole symbolism about the Olive tree was that Israel was in Christ throughout the whole OT Covenant period, as long as they kept their side of the Covenant. If they left the agreement, they were cut off. They were no longer of Israel nor Israel.

Are you defending your OP with an idealistic approach or a realistic approach?

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid...."

"...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes."

The idealistic view is that Abraham is the Olive tree. The idealistic view is that Israel is cut off and cast off to never appear again. The idealistic view is that God is forever done with a physical Israel, and now deals with a spiritual church called Israel.

The realistic view is that after the fulness of the Gentiles is complete, God will remove the blindness as well as the physical bondage of sin, not with the return of the OT Covenant, but a New Covenant where Adam's curse is lifted and sin is no more. The realistic view is that Israel was the natural branches and a physical ethnicity where they were born into Christ and remained in Christ until they broke their side of the OT Covenant.

So for the sake of the gospel they are enemies. For the sake of being removed from Adam's transgression they are on equal terms with the NT church. Their faith was by sight via their works. Abraham's faith was in the promise of Jesus' first coming and the NT Covenant.

God dealt with Abram and gave him a new name by skipping over the whole OT Covenant. God dealt with Jacob giving him a new name that consisted of the OT Covenant that would come upon leaving Egypt. Abraham was not given the OT Covenant, Israel was through his direct descendants coming out of Egypt.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

The author of Hebrews pointed out that Abraham already understood through faith, the death, burial, and resurrection of the NT Covenant. That the test with Isaac, was a figure of Christ to come. That is the NT Covenant, not the OT Covenant.

The OT Covenant could not raise one from the dead. The OT Covenant could not offer eternal life. Under the OT Covenant, all redeemed prior to the Cross, had to wait in Abraham's bosom, even Abraham. They were physically released when Jesus said, "It is finished." That was the end of the OT Covenant by the tearing of the veil from top to bottom. Israel was not cast off, the OT economy was cast off. That is why Israel was acknowledged as natural branches, and the Gentiles were the wild branches grafted in. It only realistically works for that transition period. No one has continued as natural branches. Christ realistically has replaced the natural Olive Tree. No one is physically born into Christ. The Second birth has replaced the grafting in part, because all are equally adopted children into God's family. Many still hold to the idealism of the Olive Tree, yet refuse to see it return someday realistically.


Yet God is not finished with Israel. Israel as an ethnicity will be physically restored, this time out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and no longer under the OT Covenant, but their own Covenant that they will share with all of the other nations. Jesus will sit as King over Israel and the whole earth.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Zao is life]

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Yes. Abraham was a Gentile who believed in God and believed (the Word of God) spoken to him, and so he is the father of all Gentiles who believe in God and in His Word, as well as all the natural descendants of his son Isaac and his grandson Jacob who likewise believe.

Therefore it is of faith so that it might be according to grace; for the promise to be made sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all -- Rom.4:16

copy @Timtofly​

 

[Jay Ross]

Egypt, when Abraham went down to there, hated the Hebrew people group and Abraham, being a descendant of Eber was a Hebrew first. But God had called Abraham to live in His earth that He would show him, and after Jacob, his grandson, was called Israel by God, Jacob's descendants became known as the Israelites.

The real newsflash is that this thread is fake news or storytelling.

Ishmael, being Abraham's son was also a Hebrew, but after he separated from Abraham, his descendants became the Ishmaelites.

The most important aspect of the descendants of Abraham is that they worshipped God until they fell away.

Shalom

 

[Zao is life]

Egypt, when Abraham went down to there, hated the Hebrew people group and Abraham, being a descendant of Eber was a Hebrew first. But God had called Abraham to live in His earth that He would show him, and after Jacob, his grandson, was called Israel by God, Jacob's descendants became known as the Israelites.

The real newsflash is that this thread is fake news or storytelling.

Ishmael, being Abraham's son was also a Hebrew, but after he separated from Abraham, his descendants became the Ishmaelites.

The most important aspect of the descendants of Abraham is that they worshipped God until they fell away.

Shalom

Your posts are always so full of give aways that you're about to spread false news doctrine, which you did well in your post above, of course.

Being born a descendant of Eber (a Hebrew) did not make Abraham an "Israelite". It made him a Gentile whose father worshiped idols in Ur of the Chaldees.

In Abraham's case, he was a Gentile who believed in God. The Hebrews that descended from Abraham became the chosen nation because God called Abraham - before Abraham was even circumcised.

 

[Timtofly]

The Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not broken off from Israel through their disobedience to the law. They are broken off through their unbelief of the Word of God.

Which was failure to live according to the Law.

 

[Timtofly]

Two Israels.

Israel

Non-Israel

 

[covenantee]

Israel

Non-Israel

All Israel.

Of Israel.

 

[Jay Ross]

Your posts are always so full of give aways that you're about to spread false news doctrine, which you did well in your post above, of course.

Being born a descendant of Eber (a Hebrew) did not make Abraham an "Israelite". It made him a Gentile whose father worshiped idols in Ur of the Chaldees.

In Abraham's case, he was a Gentile who believed in God. The Hebrews that descended from Abraham became the chosen nation because God called Abraham - before Abraham was even circumcised.

Let allow the Scriptures to define who the gentile nations were: -

[b}Genesis 10: - Nations Descended from Noah
(1 Chron 1:5-27)
10:[/b]1 Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.

8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore, it is said, "Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord." 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).

13 Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casluhim (from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim).
15 Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; 16 the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; 17 the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; 18 the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. 19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.

21 And children were born also to Shem, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder. 22 The sons of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. 23 The sons of Aram were Uz, Hul, Gether, and Mash. 24 Arphaxad begot Salah, and Salah begot Eber. 25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. 26 Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. 30 And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. 31 These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations.

32 These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.

 

[Zao is life]

Let allow the Scriptures to define who the gentile nations were: -

[b}Genesis 10: - Nations Descended from Noah
(1 Chron 1:5-27)
10:[/b]1 Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.

8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore, it is said, "Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord." 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).

13 Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casluhim (from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim).
15 Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; 16 the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; 17 the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; 18 the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. 19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.

21 And children were born also to Shem, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder. 22 The sons of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. 23 The sons of Aram were Uz, Hul, Gether, and Mash. 24 Arphaxad begot Salah, and Salah begot Eber. 25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. 26 Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. 30 And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. 31 These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations.

32 These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.

Well done on quoting from scriptures that anyone can read for himself. Does your post even have a point?

One of Noah's descendants was Shem and one of Shem's descendants was Eber and one of Eber's descendants was Terah, the father of Abraham. Then, before Abraham was circumcised, he was called by God and promised that he would become the father of a multitude of goy nations. It was the very first thing God promised him. Anyone can read all of that for himself in the scriptures.

Your post above is meaningless, and does not prove your meaningless point in your first post.​

 

[Jay Ross]

Well done on quoting from scriptures that anyone can read for himself. Does your post even have a point?

One of Noah's descendants was Shem and one of Shem's descendants was Eber and one of Eber's descendants was Terah, the father of Abraham. Then, before Abraham was circumcised, he was called by God and promised that he would become the father of a multitude of goy nations. It was the very first thing God promised him. Anyone can read all of that for himself in the scriptures.

Your post above is meaningless, and does not prove your meaningless point in your first post.​

What is your problem? Genesis 17:4 has the Hebrew Root word Goy H1471embedded in the actual Hebrew word used in Genesis 17:4, gō·w·yim that this word occurs 136 times in the OT and the usual translation of this word is nations. Your claim that Abraham was a Gentile is a false understanding on your part. Abraham walked with God and Noah before he left Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the earth that God said that He would show him.

Your argument is with yourself as you have, in my humble opinion, demonstrated a lack of understanding of the Hebrew Text that you have quoted.

It is pointless for me to continue this conversation.

 

[Timtofly]

All Israel.

Of Israel.

All Israel is of Israel, only 1. If one is not Israel then they stopped being of Israel. God says they stop, thus non-Israel.