Unsupported by traditions and religious doctrines maybe but very supported by scripture and God's character.
No Hell Below Us
- Thread starter Foreigner
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Unsupported by traditions and religious doctrines maybe but very supported by scripture and God's character.
Unsupported by traditions and religious doctrines maybe but very supported by scripture and God's character.
-- God's character says He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8) and that He keeps His word.
And His word says: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt 25:41
Yep He sure does, and that fire could be no more than 3 days, the same word used by Jonah for the time he spent in the fish's belly. His word also says that He reconciled everyone to Himself. The scriptures also say that Christ was sent to save the world and that one day there will be a complete restitution of all things.
This is a quote from an article I was reading while considering this topic.
The excuses with which men deceive themselves, when viewed in the light of their own admissions, is a glaring proof of the madness of their wickedness. How strange! Here is an individual admitting that he ought to obey God, and with the same breath excusing himself for not doing so! Does not everyone see the absurdity of admitting obligation and excusing yourself at the same moment!
Further, if sinners really and truly believed in their excuses, they would not admit the obligation and necessity of repentance. Take a man, for instance, who honestly believed he could not do better than he does, would he not at once tell you that he has nothing to repent about? He cannot honestly tell you anything else. He meets you at once with a full and flat denial of his moral obligation. He would say, "God cannot send me to hell for I do not deserve it. God cannot, with justice, shut me out of heaven." Again, he would not be afraid to die. He would say, "Why do you think I am afraid to meet a God of justice? Not I. God has nothing against me. He has no right to have, and I am therefore not afraid to die.["] Tell him to repent and be converted. "I have no need," says he, "I am right already." If they sincerely believed in the excuses, they would no more condemn themselves than a windmill. If they really believed they were machines, their consciences would never be disturbed. But the fact is, men assume and know that they are not machines in any such sense as not to be free and accountable. They can never, for their lives, escape the conviction that they are both free and accountable.
Again. If they really believed that men were machines, they would not blame the conduct of others. If you are sincere in professing this, if a man knock you, or take away your wife, your child, or any of your property, you cannot blame him; for how can he help it! He is a mere machine. How could he help it? Why, if you really believe you are machines, you could no more blame a man for knocking you down in the streets than you could blame the arm of a windmill for knocking you down. If you are knocked down by the arm of a windmill, why not blame it? Because you cannot assume that it was to blame; it is a mere machine, and you pick yourself up as well as you can and go away. But why blame a man, when according to this idea of yours he is not the least more culpable? But can this infidel in his heart believe this? No! I say he cannot. He cannot show to mankind, or even to himself, that man is not a moral agent.
The excuses with which men deceive themselves, when viewed in the light of their own admissions, is a glaring proof of the madness of their wickedness. How strange! Here is an individual admitting that he ought to obey God, and with the same breath excusing himself for not doing so! Does not everyone see the absurdity of admitting obligation and excusing yourself at the same moment!
Further, if sinners really and truly believed in their excuses, they would not admit the obligation and necessity of repentance. Take a man, for instance, who honestly believed he could not do better than he does, would he not at once tell you that he has nothing to repent about? He cannot honestly tell you anything else. He meets you at once with a full and flat denial of his moral obligation. He would say, "God cannot send me to hell for I do not deserve it. God cannot, with justice, shut me out of heaven." Again, he would not be afraid to die. He would say, "Why do you think I am afraid to meet a God of justice? Not I. God has nothing against me. He has no right to have, and I am therefore not afraid to die.["] Tell him to repent and be converted. "I have no need," says he, "I am right already." If they sincerely believed in the excuses, they would no more condemn themselves than a windmill. If they really believed they were machines, their consciences would never be disturbed. But the fact is, men assume and know that they are not machines in any such sense as not to be free and accountable. They can never, for their lives, escape the conviction that they are both free and accountable.
Again. If they really believed that men were machines, they would not blame the conduct of others. If you are sincere in professing this, if a man knock you, or take away your wife, your child, or any of your property, you cannot blame him; for how can he help it! He is a mere machine. How could he help it? Why, if you really believe you are machines, you could no more blame a man for knocking you down in the streets than you could blame the arm of a windmill for knocking you down. If you are knocked down by the arm of a windmill, why not blame it? Because you cannot assume that it was to blame; it is a mere machine, and you pick yourself up as well as you can and go away. But why blame a man, when according to this idea of yours he is not the least more culpable? But can this infidel in his heart believe this? No! I say he cannot. He cannot show to mankind, or even to himself, that man is not a moral agent.
I agree with you Foreigner.
There is no biblical support for returning from Hell otherwise the devil and his angels would also have that same opportunity [Matt25:41]
Be Blessed!
I once watched a documentary called "Banned from the Bible<" in which soemone said that they early church nearly went with the Apocolyupse of Peter instead of teh Apocolypse of John (Revelations) because in Peter's Apocolypse it say's that Hell is not forever.
In Peter's Apocolypse Jesus tells Peter that if the people in Heaven look down on the suffering of the people in Hell and feel sorry for them then they will petition God to release them and he will let them come to Heaven eventually.
In Peter's Apocolypse Jesus tells Peter that if the people in Heaven look down on the suffering of the people in Hell and feel sorry for them then they will petition God to release them and he will let them come to Heaven eventually.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Yes Christ died for our sins because the just punishment for sin is death, not unending torment. If unending torment was the just punishment then Christ would be undergoing torment right now in hell.
Tis true, many do not submit to Christ yet but I believe that one day all will submit just as the scriptures declare, "every knee bow and every tongue confess". Then it will be apparent that God's Word (the Christ) accomplished the purpose of God His Fat6her. He was sent to take away the sin of the world.
Hi Jiggyfly,
I understand your reasoning for not accepting an eternal punishment. I agree that an eternal punishment seems like overkill, to put it mildly; however, viewing sin as a sickness/addiction and the damage it does to our bodies and soul, it makes it more reasonable to believe that at some point the unredeemed person passes a point where they are beyond help. For instance, Satan may be forced to kneel and recognize God as Lord, but he will not be able to turn his heart over to God - and if God gives him a new heart, he would have to change who Satan is at such a fundamental level that he (as he is known) would be annihilated. Since we are all eternal beings - I tend to believe that annihilation is not part of the plan. The place reserved for the unredeemed is Hell.
What do you think?
Jesus descended to wherever the dead went back then. The RCC has a doctrine called the "harrying of Hell," in which Jesus takes all the Old testament prophets and believers out of Hell and up to Heaven. The thing is that the Greek word is Hades and this is a bit tricky sicne Hades was also the name of the pagan greek God (also called Pluto) as wella sthe name of the underworld (split into three sections; the Elysian fields, teh Asphodal fields and tartarus). The Greek writers used their terminology, but the actual place that Jesus descended to after death on the Cross could have been Sheol.
Int eh Apostles Creed it say's "he descended into Hell," though many prefer to say "he descend to the dead.," which I feel is more fitting as it conveys that Jesus went to wherever the dead went to back then, not neccessarily a palce of punnishment.
As for the devil; well he lives here on earth and he works here on earth as do his minions unless we are in the millenium in which case he is stuck the abyss and tempts people by way of astral projwection and telepathy. Could this be apossibility. I heard that the 1000 years in revelations just means a long time.
Int eh Apostles Creed it say's "he descended into Hell," though many prefer to say "he descend to the dead.," which I feel is more fitting as it conveys that Jesus went to wherever the dead went to back then, not neccessarily a palce of punnishment.
As for the devil; well he lives here on earth and he works here on earth as do his minions unless we are in the millenium in which case he is stuck the abyss and tempts people by way of astral projwection and telepathy. Could this be apossibility. I heard that the 1000 years in revelations just means a long time.
It's true that the punishment for sin is death...we all die a physical death at some point...as did Christ. But I believe it goes beyond that. When Jesus died that physical death He took upon Himself all our sins and the Father turned His face away. Christ came back to life because as a sinless man, death simply could not hold Him. As Christians we accept and love Christ, and therefore when the Father looks at us He see's only the life that Jesus lived. So what does this mean for the thousands out there that do not love and accept Christ? When the Father looks at them He see's all their sins heaped upon them. Yes they will be required to die, but so to do we that are saved.Tthere is something beyond the grave that speaks directly to what kind of relationship we can have with the Father...those under Christ's blood will live in harmony with Him, but those who are unsaved will not. To live forever cut off from loving relationship with God...I'd call that hell...with out without the whole 'burning forever' thing. Perhaps when the Bible speaks of burning, it's not a literal flame...just imagine...God is everywhere, sovereign everywhere, even in hell. And as holy as He is, to live in eternity with the intimite knowledge of your terrible sins under the eye of that holy God...I could well imagine that one's soul would writhe in conscience agony at that. Still not a nice thought, but it does perhaps help with the whole "would a loving God actively punish people?" God is who He is...holy and unchanging, and unrepentent people would be aware of that every second, aware that it was completely their own doing.
Of course, that's all just wild speculation on my part! I truly don't know what form hell will take...but as I said before, I'm happy to leave it all in God's hands!
Tis true, many do not submit to Christ yet but I believe that one day all will submit just as the scriptures declare, "every knee bow and every tongue confess". Then it will be apparent that God's Word (the Christ) accomplished the purpose of God His Fat6her. He was sent to take away the sin of the world.
That's an interesting thought. Do you believe that every person who has ever lived...as in, all those who died unsaved, will still have a chance at the end to realise that God is sovereign and Lord, and then enter into eternity with Him? I'm not sure I believe that...the bible makes it all sound fairly permanent. Why would the Apostles in particular, urge people in such a heartfelt way to believe, is at the end it'll all pan out? Why Paul's distress at people in general and converts in particular, falling into evil habits? It seems to me that the bible tells us that we have this life to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".
I'm not really sure how this topic actually applies to salvation issues...but I suspect that our disagreeing on it shouldn't hinder the fact that we both love Jesus. I just urge you, perhaps, to not let your view make you too 'comfortable'...if you know what I mean! Live every moment for Jesus and feel the urgency of telling others about Him too! You may be right about everyone being saved in the end...but just is case...preach away for God!
Much of the difficulty in understanding the reconciliation and complete restitution of all things of which the scriptures declare is attached to three mistranslated and misunderstood words from the scriptures, the Hebrew word olam, and the Greek words aion and aionios.
Have you ever really considered this scripture?
Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison-- those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. 1Peter3:18-20
Why would Jesus do this if there was no chance for them to leave?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Believe me, I love the idea of universal salvation - and I will be one of the people cheering if it is true, however: one of the problems I have with it is that God barred Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life in the Garden - if He was going to offer us universal salvation, why not then? Instead He said:
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
[font="Verdana][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Which, seems to indicate that somehow, humankind could not be allowed to live eternally in their current condition. My speculation is that we were destined for Hell, at that point and needed the opportunity for redemption.[/size]
[/font]
Selene
New Member
Those spirits in prison were not in Hell. But there were also not in Heaven. Before Christ, Heaven was closed to all mankind.
I know this passage...and I think it comes down to who you believe these spirits are. Everyone who died before Christ's sacrifice on the cross...are they doomed because the salvation plan had not been fulfilled? Nope! The Bible is full of OT people who lived for and longed for the coming savior...Messiah. Those who lived with this faith...we're told that that faith is accredited to them as righteousness. Jesus tells us in the NT(therefore before He dies) that there is a place that both saved and unsaved go upon death...divided by a great uncrossable trench...hell on one side, paradise on the other. Paradise is where the OT fathers are...Abraham etc. When Jesus is about to die, He tells the thief.."today you will be with me in Paradise". I believe that when Jesus 'preached to the spirits' that He was here and that there was rejoycing in Paradise, regret in hell. When Jesus finally ascended back into heaven, the gates were opened and Abraham and co. ascended with Him...as do all believing spirits that die now. Hell, sadly is unchanged, and come the day of Judgment we see that Hell and the devil are cast into the Lake of Fire.
That's a fairly brief (and hopefully understandable) account of what I believe the Bible tells us about it all.
It is a nice thought that none should perish, but truly, no matter what term is given in the Bible...hell, hades, gahena, outer darkness, lake of fire...you can't deny that Jesus taught fairly consistantly that there was something that would result ifrom unrepentance...something that should be avioded at all cost. Even within our sinful world there are consequences for actions, big to small.
We struggle to comprehend just how abhorrent sin is to a completely holy God...should it really come down to us to say what is just and good, and what is not??
Honestly, I much prefer thinking of heaven, of grace...and of sharing that with as many people as I can! Ultimate judgment is not our call, thanks goodness!!
BTW tom thanks for confirming your all real tight around here. You dont need staff badges to be on the inside. its a tight little bunch of false teachers playing games. And by the way just what will I lose? Your the ones that started the game its yours to lose. you all sit back and decide whos account to disable and everyone just thinks they went away. Well with liberal catholics and universalism on your list of preferred members all with bad atitudes.
lokk at jiggy weasels the word of god thread, everyone that opposed his opinion is banned. He even winked at aspen indicating that they, us would not last long. Well thats exactly what happened. And Im the one playing games, please.
aspen wouldn't last a day posting the stuff he does here on a bible believing forum. but hes still here. whats that tell people?
I agree Rach...let's read some scripture...in Colossians 1:16-20,
16 For by Him all things [ta panta, "the all"] were created,
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--
all things [ta panta, "the all"] have been created by Him
and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things
hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He
is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that
He Himself might come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the
fulness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things [ta panta,
"the all"] to Himself, having made peace through the
blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things
on earth or things in heaven.
In this passage, Paul first defines "the all" as the created universe,
both in heaven and on earth, including not only visible things like
people, but even the invisible things like authority itself. Then Paul
says that it was THE FATHER'S GOOD PLEASURE to reconcile all
these things to Himself by the blood of Jesus. Can anything be
clearer? This is not a hidden doctrine. No one needs to twist
Paul's words to understand this plain teaching. God hid it in plain
sight. 1st John 2:2,
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and
not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
What a marvelous thing that Jesus would die not only for our sins
(that is, for us as Christians), but also for the sins of the entire
world! Surely the blood has not lost its power since then. Paul
told Timothy (1 Tim. 4:10,11) to preach this as well.
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have
fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all
men, especially of believers.
11 Prescribe and teach these things.
Believers are especially singled out, because their salvation comes
first. Theirs will be a greater honor, because they will inherit Life in
the Kingdom. But yet, God is the Savior of ALL MEN. No doubt
Timothy and others like him did indeed teach this in Asia Minor, for
the early Church leaders in the next centuries were faithful to teach
these things, as their writings prove.
And today we are likewise exhorted to teach these things. Why?
Because it is important to understand that God is truly righteous in
His judgments. The usual teaching of endless torment makes God
unjust. By what standard? By God's standard, as revealed in His
law. That is the only righteous standard in the earth. And for this
reason we must know of the restoration of all things.
Acts 3:19-21,
19 Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be
wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come
from the presence of the Lord;
20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed
for you,
21 whom heaven must receive until the period of
restoration of all things about which God spoke by the
mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
It's time to get excited!
Logabe
I see no possible way that Universalism can be true, in light of what the Bible says many times and many ways. Universalism is simply wishing and hoping.
Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
-- I must say I agree wholeheartedly.
When Universalists start saying that what it says in the Bible is wrong because, "The God I know would never send those He loves to a place like this" or they start questioning the validity/interpretation of what are black-and-white expectations put forth by God, you know their position is on rather shakey ground.
Jesus spoke more about the dangers of hell than the pleasures of heaven.
Maybe if they keep going, they can do away with not just hell only, but also Heaven and God altogether?
Isa 30:8-11
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, "See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
(KJV)
Isa 30:8-11
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, "See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
(KJV)
Similar threads
