No Hell Below Us

[logabe]

Maybe if they keep going, they can do away with not just hell only, but also Heaven and God altogether?

Isa 30:8-11
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10

Which say to the seers, "See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
(KJV)

Veteran... You need to read the whole chapter...he's talking about people
in the church that has a bad understanding of His Nature and His Divine
Character. For instance...Isa. 30:15 says,

15 For thus the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said,
"In repentance and rest you will be saved, In quietness and
trust is your strength."But you were not willing,

It's not as hard as you are taking it. It amazes me how everyone who
believes in eternal torment takes scripture so easily and can twist it
to say the very opposite to what God is telling us.

16 And you said, "No, for we will flee on horses," Therefore
you shall flee! "And we will ride on swift horses," Therefore
those who pursue you shall be swift.

What are you running from?

17 One thousand will flee at the threat of one man; You will
flee at the threat of five, Until you are left as a flag on a
mountain top And as a signal on a hill.

Give up! Give up!!! What are you running from?

18 Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And
therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all
those who long for Him.

Ahha... there's what you are running from. You're running from God's
gracious nature. He can't wait to have compassion on you. You can
run but you can't hide from the LOVE of God that is in Christ Jesus.

For the Lord is a GOD of JUSTICE!

21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, " This is the
way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right or to the
left.
22 And you will defile your graven images overlaid with
silver, and your molten images plated with gold. You
will scatter them as an impure thing, and say to them,
"Be gone!"

Be Gone! Be Gone! The day is coming when the church will realize
they have been believing a lie and preaching graven images to the
people of God and they will repent. That's what Isaiah 30 is all about.

23 Then He will give you rain for the seed which you
will sow in the ground, and bread from the yield of the
ground, and it will be rich and plenteous; on that day
your livestock will graze in a roomy pasture.

Ohhhh...what a happy day!

Logabe

 

[Duckybill]

There will be MANY in the eternal Hell who deny the eternal Hell.

 

[logabe]

Veteran... You need to read the whole chapter...he's talking about people
in the church that has a bad understanding of His Nature and His Divine
Character. For instance...Isa. 30:15 says,

15 For thus the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said,
"In repentance and rest you will be saved, In quietness and
trust is your strength."But you were not willing,

It's not as hard as you are taking it. It amazes me how everyone who
believes in eternal torment takes scripture so easily and can twist it
to say the very opposite to what God is telling us.

16 And you said, "No, for we will flee on horses," Therefore
you shall flee! "And we will ride on swift horses," Therefore
those who pursue you shall be swift.

What are you running from?

17 One thousand will flee at the threat of one man; You will
flee at the threat of five, Until you are left as a flag on a
mountain top And as a signal on a hill.

Give up! Give up!!! What are you running from?

18 Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And
therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all
those who long for Him.

Ahha... there's what you are running from. You're running from God's
gracious nature. He can't wait to have compassion on you. You can
run but you can't hide from the LOVE of God that is in Christ Jesus.

For the Lord is a GOD of JUSTICE!

21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, " This is the
way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right or to the
left.

22 And you will defile your graven images overlaid with
silver, and your molten images plated with gold. You
will scatter them as an impure thing, and say to them,
"Be gone!"

Be Gone! Be Gone! The day is coming when the church will realize
they have been believing a lie and preaching graven images to the
people of God and they will repent. That's what Isaiah 30 is all about.

23 Then He will give you rain for the seed which you
will sow in the ground, and bread from the yield of the
ground, and it will be rich and plenteous; on that day
your livestock will graze in a roomy pasture.

Ohhhh...what a happy day!

Logabe

Do you know what a graven image is?

It is something someone has said that convinces us it is the
truth. They carve a lie in our thought process and we believe
it to be the law. It is a snap shot of what we believe is real but
in reality it is designed to deceive. 2nd Corth. 10:4-5,

4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh,
but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing
raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are
taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

Do I believe in hell? Yes...but not the way man has carved into
the minds of the church. Hell has become a graven image to
the average Christian and God said if we want to believe a
lie, He will help us. 2nd Thessalonians 2:11-12,

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding
influence so that they will believe what is false.
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not
believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Now God isn't talking to a bunch of unbelievers who knows
nothing about the Love of God but He is talking to us. In
essence, God is telling US if we want to hang on to that
graven image...He'll give us a little help so we can try to
convince everyone in the church to believe what we believe
whether it is right or wrong.

Let's go to the big boy now. Do you know what a molten
image is? Ah...them molten images plated with gold. They
become very valuable in your thought processes and you
will become very defensive when your molten golden image
is challenged. You will protect that image in your mind and
it doesn't matter what it might cost you. 1st Tim. 4:1-2,

1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some
will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful
spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own
conscience as with a branding iron,

Sold out...molten image that can't be changed. Until the 4th
century no one spoke of hell being eternal but when Augustine
came...he became the champion of eternal torment. Look it
up for yourself...don't take my word for it. Why wasn't eternal
torment taught the 1st four hundred years after Christ death
and ressurection? I can tell you why...it's man made...it was
created by a man. 2nd Tim. 3:5-9,

5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have
denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
6 For among them are those who enter into households
and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led
on by various impulses,
7 always learning and never able to come to the
knowledge of the truth.
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these
men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected
in regard to the faith.
9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will
be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly
was also.

The day is coming and it is near when God will reveal His
Power to all men. The lies and falsehood will be a thing of
the past. He's coming ya'll...study to show yourselves approved
before God. We need to get our minds on what God is doing
and quit believing fairy tales. 1st Tim. 3:13-15,

13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad
to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 You, however, continue in the things you have
learned and become convinced of, knowing from
whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred
writings which are able to give you the wisdom that
leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What a God!

Logabe

 

[sdcougar]

Universalism is certainly a heresy but I have not read Bell or enough of the rieviews to lay that charge at his door. From what I have read, he seems, at least, to have left the door open to confusion. I don't know if that is a fair assessment.

What concerns me much more is that Christians today are so lacking in understanding the key basics of the faith that they can be easily led astray. Basic concepts have been so distorted by worldly views, thus:

Love, Prayer and Forgiveness: When Basics Become Heresies

See Amazon [font="Times-Roman]http://tinyurl.com/y9p4vez[/font]

 

[Duckybill]

Do I believe in hell? Yes...but not the way man has carved into
the minds of the church.

Jesus believed in Hell, the everlasting fire.

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
[sup]22 [/sup]But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus believed in Hell, the everlasting fire.

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
[sup]22 [/sup]But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Jesus talked of aionion fire but I doubt Jesus ever used any English words in His teachings. Many make the mistake of interpreting aion, aionion, and aionios as always meaning eternal, everlasting and for ever. But scripture proves otherwise.

But getting some to see this is very difficult, some have a mindset like Jonah or the prodigal's brother and get very upset at the thought of Father showing mercy to others.

Universalism is certainly a heresy but I have not read Bell or enough of the rieviews to lay that charge at his door. From what I have read, he seems, at least, to have left the door open to confusion. I don't know if that is a fair assessment.

What concerns me much more is that Christians today are so lacking in understanding the key basics of the faith that they can be easily led astray. Basic concepts have been so distorted by worldly views, thus:

Love, Prayer and Forgiveness: When Basics Become Heresies

See Amazon [font="Times-Roman]http://tinyurl.com/y9p4vez[/font]

Can you define "universalism".

Another good post Logabe. Many don't want to do the study involved to come to the truth concerning the eternal torment doctrine or it's origin. But it is all there in black and white preserved in church history. The reconciliation of all, believed and taught by the majority for the first 3 centuries, and the scriptures bear out that it was taught by the apostles as well, it's documented.

 

[jiggyfly]

I know this passage...and I think it comes down to who you believe these spirits are. Everyone who died before Christ's sacrifice on the cross...are they doomed because the salvation plan had not been fulfilled? Nope! The Bible is full of OT people who lived for and longed for the coming savior...Messiah. Those who lived with this faith...we're told that that faith is accredited to them as righteousness. Jesus tells us in the NT(therefore before He dies) that there is a place that both saved and unsaved go upon death...divided by a great uncrossable trench...hell on one side, paradise on the other. Paradise is where the OT fathers are...Abraham etc. When Jesus is about to die, He tells the thief.."today you will be with me in Paradise". I believe that when Jesus 'preached to the spirits' that He was here and that there was rejoycing in Paradise, regret in hell. When Jesus finally ascended back into heaven, the gates were opened and Abraham and co. ascended with Him...as do all believing spirits that die now. Hell, sadly is unchanged, and come the day of Judgment we see that Hell and the devil are cast into the Lake of Fire.
That's a fairly brief (and hopefully understandable) account of what I believe the Bible tells us about it all.

It is a nice thought that none should perish, but truly, no matter what term is given in the Bible...hell, hades, gahena, outer darkness, lake of fire...you can't deny that Jesus taught fairly consistantly that there was something that would result ifrom unrepentance...something that should be avioded at all cost. Even within our sinful world there are consequences for actions, big to small.
We struggle to comprehend just how abhorrent sin is to a completely holy God...should it really come down to us to say what is just and good, and what is not??
Honestly, I much prefer thinking of heaven, of grace...and of sharing that with as many people as I can! Ultimate judgment is not our call, thanks goodness!!

Sorry for the delay Rach, your right there obviously is something ahead for those who remain disobedient, but a closer look at what Jesus and thee apostles taught reveals that what ever it is it is not unending torment. There are way too many scriptures that conflict with the paradigm of unending torment. God's judgment involves more than just punishment, it requires retribution, restoration, and reconciliation. It's all there in the Torah. Scriptures declare very clearly the restoration of all things, the reconciliation of all things, and the salvation of all mankind again and again, it is woven all through the whole of scripture. Tis why Paul was the messenger of "good news"

 

[Thankful 1]

Jesus talked of aionion fire but I doubt Jesus ever used any English words in His teachings. Many make the mistake of interpreting aion, aionion, and aionios as always meaning eternal, everlasting and for ever. But scripture proves otherwise.

But getting some to see this is very difficult, some have a mindset like Jonah or the prodigal's brother and get very upset at the thought of Father showing mercy to others.

Can you define "universalism".

Another good post Logabe. Many don't want to do the study involved to come to the truth concerning the eternal torment doctrine or it's origin. But it is all there in black and white preserved in church history. The reconciliation of all, believed and taught by the majority for the first 3 centuries, and the scriptures bear out that it was taught by the apostles as well, it's documented.

One of the tools people use to twist the written Word of God is to make people assume that he or she are much better interpreters of the Greek Language than those who produced the authorized English versions. It is as if these people want one to believe they are more guided by the Holy Spirit then those who were appointed to translate the written Word.



Why doesn’t everyone just ask Jesus for the correct interpretation?

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus talked of aionion fire but I doubt Jesus ever used any English words in His teachings. Many make the mistake of interpreting aion, aionion, and aionios as always meaning eternal, everlasting and for ever. But scripture proves otherwise.

The eternal punishment in the fire is in several places in the NT. Are they all wrong?

But getting some to see this is very difficult, some have a mindset like Jonah or the prodigal's brother and get very upset at the thought of Father showing mercy to others.

Pretending that the eternal fire doesn't exist doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

Luke 16:22-26 (NKJV)
[sup]22 [/sup]So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. [sup]23 [/sup]And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [sup]24 [/sup]Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' [sup]25 [/sup]But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. [sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

 

[Foreigner]

Jesus spoke more about hell than he did of heaven.



Matt 25:42 : "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"


Matt 12:42 : "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."



No, he was not metaphorically speaking...

 

[jiggyfly]

The eternal punishment in the fire is in several places in the NT. Are they all wrong?

Yes as a matter of fact, but you seem be content to believe that unending torment is a just punishment for sin even though it is contrary to what the scriptures say.

 

[Thankful 1]

Yes as a matter of fact, but you seem be content to believe that unending torment is a just punishment for sin even though it is contrary to what the scriptures say.

Personally I don’t care if there is a Hell or not, because Jesus has told me I would be with him. But scripture tells us there is a Hell. Now Hell was not meant for man but for Satan, and his angles. Those who chose to follow Satan will just have to reside in Hell with him.



(Matthew 5:27-30) “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell

 

[Duckybill]

Yes as a matter of fact, but you seem be content to believe that unending torment is a just punishment for sin even though it is contrary to what the scriptures say.

Of course it is just. Everyone who goes to Hell will deserve to. Is God unjust? Nope.

 

[jiggyfly]

Of course it is just. Everyone who goes to Hell will deserve to. Is God unjust? Nope.

But the scriptures state that the just punishment for sin is death not unending torment.

 

[Thankful 1]

But the scriptures state that the just punishment for sin is death not unending torment.

Going to Hell is true death.



The discussion on this thread alone should convince all that the bible couldn’t explain the truth. The written word can be manipulated to agree with anyone’s desires.



The only way to the truth is to have God teach him or her.

 

[Duckybill]

But the scriptures state that the just punishment for sin is death not unending torment.

What Scriptures are you referring to?

The discussion on this thread alone should convince all that the bible couldn’t explain the truth. The written word can be manipulated to agree with anyone’s desires.

The only way to the truth is to have God teach him or her.

The Scriptures are God's teachings.

2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Or we could have an unknown being teach us like you claim for yourself.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

 

[jiggyfly]

What Scriptures are you referring to?

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Romans 5:12

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes. Romans 7:13

For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 1Cor. 15:56

If the just punishment for sin is unending torment and Christ suffered for our sin then Christ would be suffering unending torment, but this is not the case.

If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age [fn] to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice. Hebrews 9:26

 

[Duckybill]

If the just punishment for sin is unending torment and Christ suffered for our sin then Christ would be suffering unending torment, but this is not the case.

You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to deny eternal punishment in the fire.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels:

If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age [fn] to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice. Hebrews 9:26

The promises are conditional. The majority will not qualify.

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
[sup]23 [/sup]Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, [sup]24 [/sup]"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

John 5:28-29 (KJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[jiggyfly]

You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to deny eternal punishment in the fire.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels:
The promises are conditional. The majority will not qualify.

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
[sup]23 [/sup]Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, [sup]24 [/sup]"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

John 5:28-29 (KJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

No the only thing I've denied is some errant translation. If the just punishment for sin is unending torment than what was Jesus punished by death for????

 

[Duckybill]

No the only thing I've denied is some errant translation. If the just punishment for sin is unending torment than what was Jesus punished by death for????

He died and shed His Blood for our sins. If we do not believe and accept this then we have no salvation.

John 3:15-16 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [sup]16 [/sup]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes, everyone will believe in Him but after death it is too late to believe in Him for salvation.

John 5:28-29 (KJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

No the only thing I've denied is some errant translation. If the just punishment for sin is unending torment than what was Jesus punished by death for????

Which Scriptures are you saying are "errant translation"?