No Hell Below Us

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,583
123
0
This pastor ignores that fact that when Jesus walked on earth, he spent more time talking about the dangers of going to hell than the excitement of going to heaven.

People such as this do more harm than good, both in the secular and Christian communities.





Faith No Hell Below Us: Evangelical Pastor Stirs Theological Turmoil With New Afterlife Arguments
“All dogs go to Heaven,” the classic kids movie suggests. But do all people, no matter what they do or don’t believe?

That’s the question haunting the evangelical Christian community after a young pastor released a video detailing an upcoming book challenging orthodox views on Heaven and hell — a book some prominent Christian leaders are calling heresy.

The book is Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. Its author, Rob Bell, has a knack for pushing the envelope and is somewhat of a theological rock star among hip evangelicals. With his rectangle, black-rimmed glasses, his widely popular and artfully-crafted NOOMA videos, and his church-wide art shows, he appeals to a younger audience often searching to challenge the faith of its parents and push Christian societal norms. He’s controversial. Love Wins is no exception.

Why? If the title didn’t give it away, the book’s description will.

“[In Love Wins] Bell addresses one of the most controversial issues of faith — the afterlife — arguing that a loving God would never sentence human souls to eternal suffering,” the books publisher, HarperOne, explains. “With searing insight, Bell puts hell on trial, and his message is decidedly optimistic — eternal life doesn’t start when we die; it starts right now. And ultimately, Love Wins.”

It continues: “What if the story of heaven and hell we have been taught is not, in fact, what the Bible teaches? What if what Jesus meant by heaven, hell, and salvation are very different from how we have come to understand them?” [Emphasis theirs]

That description and video were enough to ignite a scathing critique of Bell — who pastors the megachurch Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, MI — by prominent Christian blogger Justin Taylor, which set off a firestorm across the evangelical community.“It is unspeakably sad when those called to be ministers of the Word distort the gospel and deceive the people of God with false doctrine,” Taylor, vice president of Christian publisher Crossway, writes. “It seems that this is not just optimism about the fate of those who haven’t heard the Good News, but … full-blown hell-is-empty-everyone-gets-saved universalism.”

From there, other prominent Christian leaders weighed in. Some did it using three words, such as John Piper’s, “Farewell Rob Bell” tweet. Others launched into more lengthy dissections.

“Time is running out on the Emerging folks,” R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, says in a blog post. Eventually “they appear as nothing more than a mildly updated form of Protestant liberalism.” He even calls the book‘s description and Bell’s video “the sad equivalent of a theological striptease.”

“Emerging,” as Mohler mentions, is the theological camp Bell has championed. It emphasizes the love of Christ and the inclusion of the cross, but rarely emphasizes the judgment of God. The “way” of Jesus is glorified over some of his more unpopular, and challenging, teachings.

Others, while still skeptical, are leery to pass judgment.

“I’m grateful to God that Rob Bell is opening this after-life door,” Scot McKnight, professor of theology at North Park University in Chicago, writes. He says Bell’s questions about the afterlife are the same questions haunting many of his students. “The approach to this generation is not to denounce their questions, which often enough are rooted in a heightened sensitivity to divine justice and compassion, but to probe their questions from the inside and to probe thoughtful and biblically-response resolutions.”

Mark Galli, senior managing editor of Christianity Today, suggests the topic should be debated. But all conclusions must be reserved until the book releases on March 15.

“The issues raised will not go away by dismissing them as irrational or unfounded or malicious,” he writes. He also offers a word of caution: “traditionalists need to marshal arguments and not ad hominems.”

Josh Staton is executive pastor at Trinity Grace Church in New York City, a multi-site church throughout the city traditionally comprised of younger evangelicals like Bell’s. He generally enjoys and respects Bell but also understands Bell can be “provocative” — and he does see some cause for concern regarding the issues raised in Love Wins.

“There’s a lot of universalism going around, especially within the younger generation that doesn’t talk about hell much,” he tells The Blaze. “We have hell on the books but we have a hard time confining anyone there. We think of Hitler, and say, ‘of course he’s in hell.’ But after that it’s hard.”

But Staton also thinks the controversy may not be Bell’s fault alone. “To a certain degree publishers know how to sell books,” he says. “And with all this they’re going to sell a ton of books.” He admits, however, “I was definitely surprised. Looking at the video it does look a little suspect.”

Still, Staton’s “withholding judgment until the book comes out,” and believes “any attention on the fate of those who don’t believe [the gospel] should inspire evangelism.”

Like Staton, respected evangelical scholar Ben Witherington of Asbury Theological Seminary didn’t lash out at Bell. Instead, he chosen to chastise those who have critiqued the pastor before they’ve read the entire book, if at all.

“It seems that there are a ton of Christians out there in cyberspace who are prepared to judge Rob Bell before his book has even been published,” he posts on his blog. “I must say I am hugely disappointed in people like John Piper and Mark Driscoll, who also haven’t read the book yet, and yet are prepared to condemn Rob … .” [Emphasis his]

“Shame on you,” he concludes.

In the end, Witherington’s may be the most important point: the entire “content” of the book is still unclear. It has yet to be released, with many basing their critiques on the publisher’s description and the promotional video (although some such as Taylor have read a few chapters and Galli has read the entire thing). In the end, no one has talked to Bell — he’s refusing requests for comment until the book debuts.

The New York Times did read an advanced copy. And while not an authority on theology, writer Erik Eckhold offers a summary:

[T]he 200-page book is unlikely to assuage Mr. Bell’s critics. In an elliptical style, he throws out probing questions about traditional biblical interpretations, mixing real-life stories with scripture.

Much of the book is a sometimes obscure discussion of the meaning of heaven and hell that tears away at the standard ideas. In his version, heaven is something that begins here on earth, in a life of goodness, and hell seems more a condition than an eternal fate — “the very real consequences we experience when we reject all the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us.”

While sliding close to what critics consider the heresy of “universalism” — that all humans will eventually be saved — he never uses the term.

“Imagine there’s no heaven/It’s easy if you try/No hell below us/Above us only sky,” the classic John Lennon song goes. Come March 15, it might just mirror a new theological persuasion.
 

archaeologist5

New Member
Mar 3, 2011
124
0
0
But Staton also thinks the controversy may not be Bell’s fault alone. “To a certain degree publishers know how to sell books,” he says. “And with all this they’re going to sell a ton of books.” He admits, however, “I was definitely surprised. Looking at the video it does look a little suspect.”

i read the christianity today article and will wait to see what the book really says.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
I wish there wasn't reason to start criticizing other Christians...but there are just some out there that would lead others astray. Is Rob Bell a Christian? Only God knows. But every time someone takes a step back from sound Biblical doctrine, and we're okay with it, it just makes it easier for worse and worse heresies to but put forward and to be bought by unsuspecting people.

Surely there must be a way for Christians to stand firm in the truth, but to not tear others down in the process?? I just don't know.

The one thing I do know...if Rob Bell is indeed teaching 'no hell, everyone gets into heaven.." then he's wrong. We cannot dismiss or turn aside Christ's meaning when He talked of hell, of consequences, of judgment. We cannot ignore that Jesus also says that no one will come to the Father, unless it's by Him. And so many people just don't love Jesus. Sad, but true.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I wish there wasn't reason to start criticizing other Christians...but there are just some out there that would lead others astray. Is Rob Bell a Christian? Only God knows. But every time someone takes a step back from sound Biblical doctrine, and we're okay with it, it just makes it easier for worse and worse heresies to but put forward and to be bought by unsuspecting people.

Surely there must be a way for Christians to stand firm in the truth, but to not tear others down in the process?? I just don't know.

The one thing I do know...if Rob Bell is indeed teaching 'no hell, everyone gets into heaven.." then he's wrong. We cannot dismiss or turn aside Christ's meaning when He talked of hell, of consequences, of judgment. We cannot ignore that Jesus also says that no one will come to the Father, unless it's by Him. And so many people just don't love Jesus. Sad, but true.

For every heretic advocating dropping key doctrine like a liberal; there is another heretic that is trying add to scripture like a Pharisee.


 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
For every heretic advocating dropping key doctrine like a liberal; there is another heretic that is trying add to scripture like a Pharisee.

True...heresy is heresy, no matter what form it comes in. I just don't understand it myself...the gospel that the Bible preaches is perfect, wonderful and complete!! I can't understand why anyone would want to add to or subtract from it.
It's all an attempt to make people feel better about their sins I suppose..."if the Bible backs it, then it's totally okay for me to be acting this way..." Still, I can't imagine needing any more than what Jesus has already given!!!
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
True...heresy is heresy, no matter what form it comes in. I just don't understand it myself...the gospel that the Bible preaches is perfect, wonderful and complete!! I can't understand why anyone would want to add to or subtract from it.
It's all an attempt to make people feel better about their sins I suppose..."if the Bible backs it, then it's totally okay for me to be acting this way..." Still, I can't imagine needing any more than what Jesus has already given!!!


I think it comes down to control. If I can corner the market on moral standards or unique interpretations or whatever - it becomes all about me, not Christ. The Pharisees approached Christ in this manner - as experts, swatting at a fly......Jesus was humble without backing down. He message was love. Nothing complicated about it. In fact, it was so simple that I can imagine how 'dismissed' the narcissistic Pharisees must have felt; 'How dare this bumpkin boil God's Law down to something so simple! We have spent our lives studying this!' I often see the same message from people today who seem so concerned about doctrinal purity and precise interpretation that the simple meaning falls through their fingers like sand.

I'll be so glad when this jockying for the ownership of God's Word is finally over one day!

blessings
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
True there are many teachings today that are considered heresy but how do we know that what the "church" today considers to be sound doctrine was not yester year's heresy?
smile.gif


Some studies indicate that the early church(2nd-3rd centuries) taught universal reconciliation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miss Hepburn

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
880
47
28
66
For every heretic advocating dropping key doctrine like a liberal; there is another heretic that is trying add to scripture like a Pharisee
.

Let's not judge before we read the book...lest we might find ourselves
fighting God...thinking we're doing HIM a favor.


Logabe
 

Miss Hepburn

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2009
1,674
1,333
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thank you, Foreigner, for posting this.
I missed the TV news report on it.
:)
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
True there are many teachings today that are considered heresy but how do we know that what the "church" today considers to be sound doctrine was not yester year's heresy?
smile.gif


Some studies indicate that the early church(2nd-3rd centuries) taught universal reconciliation.

It's a good thought, and it's true that even within today's church people differ wildly with what they consider 'truth'.
All I can say is...we shouldn't base our truth, or considered heresies on tradition or church history. It should come, all of it from scripture!
Now granted even that gets us varying beliefs...but I do tend to think that a big part of that is that scripture is not being read in light of itself!
In particular regard to this threads topic, I can't help but see that the Bible does teach hell. It's not pleasant to think of people going there, but it's not pleasant to think of the current evil in our world coming to heaven either! It comes back to God being absolutely good, but also absolutely just. His very nature cannot let the blatently unrepentant come to Him. It's hard to grasp, but there are just some things about God that we cannot...and honestly, I'm glad! What kind of God would he be if my feeble mind could comprehend Him?? I trust Him, absolutely, and although the thought of hell scares me for those I know will go there, I do know that God's hand is in everything, working for His good and glory!! And we must remember that...we aren't here for our own glory, our own amazing benefit...we live to bring glory to our wonderful maker!! When we go to heaven, that's what we'll be doing...glorifying Him!
As Christians we shouldn't ever rejoyce in hell, we shouldn't ever be glad others are going there...in fact we should feel that this is an added incentive for us to preach the gospel!! Remember, the bible tells us that God is taking His time with human history, wanting that everyone would be saved! But this salvation comes only through repentance and faith in Christ. The Bible is quite clear that that is the thing needed...nothing else will do. So while it may be of great comfort to many to believe that ultimately everyone will be saved, the simple fact that many do not love Jesus cannot be avoided. In fact, many not only do not love Jesus, but actively hate Him and persecute His followers as well. Can we imagine that God would welcome them to Him, without the blood of Jesus covering them? Sadly, I do not,

But all this does not mean our God is not loving! He certainly did not need to provide us with an 'escape' plan! His amazingly deep love is shown by the brutal death of His own Son...a member of the Trinity!! We should never...never lose sight of that, even when considering some of the more difficult things the Bible tells us!
 

paul1234

New Member
Jan 20, 2011
88
11
0
england
It's a good thought, and it's true that even within today's church people differ wildly with what they consider 'truth'.
All I can say is...we shouldn't base our truth, or considered heresies on tradition or church history. It should come, all of it from scripture!
Now granted even that gets us varying beliefs...but I do tend to think that a big part of that is that scripture is not being read in light of itself!
In particular regard to this threads topic, I can't help but see that the Bible does teach hell. It's not pleasant to think of people going there, but it's not pleasant to think of the current evil in our world coming to heaven either! It comes back to God being absolutely good, but also absolutely just. His very nature cannot let the blatently unrepentant come to Him. It's hard to grasp, but there are just some things about God that we cannot...and honestly, I'm glad! What kind of God would he be if my feeble mind could comprehend Him?? I trust Him, absolutely, and although the thought of hell scares me for those I know will go there, I do know that God's hand is in everything, working for His good and glory!! And we must remember that...we aren't here for our own glory, our own amazing benefit...we live to bring glory to our wonderful maker!! When we go to heaven, that's what we'll be doing...glorifying Him!
As Christians we shouldn't ever rejoyce in hell, we shouldn't ever be glad others are going there...in fact we should feel that this is an added incentive for us to preach the gospel!! Remember, the bible tells us that God is taking His time with human history, wanting that everyone would be saved! But this salvation comes only through repentance and faith in Christ. The Bible is quite clear that that is the thing needed...nothing else will do. So while it may be of great comfort to many to believe that ultimately everyone will be saved, the simple fact that many do not love Jesus cannot be avoided. In fact, many not only do not love Jesus, but actively hate Him and persecute His followers as well. Can we imagine that God would welcome them to Him, without the blood of Jesus covering them? Sadly, I do not,

But all this does not mean our God is not loving! He certainly did not need to provide us with an 'escape' plan! His amazingly deep love is shown by the brutal death of His own Son...a member of the Trinity!! We should never...never lose sight of that, even when considering some of the more difficult things the Bible tells us!



and although the thought of hell scares me for those I know will go there

please pray for those people they need prayer
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
It's a good thought, and it's true that even within today's church people differ wildly with what they consider 'truth'.
All I can say is...we shouldn't base our truth, or considered heresies on tradition or church history. It should come, all of it from scripture!
Now granted even that gets us varying beliefs...but I do tend to think that a big part of that is that scripture is not being read in light of itself!
In particular regard to this threads topic, I can't help but see that the Bible does teach hell. It's not pleasant to think of people going there, but it's not pleasant to think of the current evil in our world coming to heaven either! It comes back to God being absolutely good, but also absolutely just. His very nature cannot let the blatently unrepentant come to Him. It's hard to grasp, but there are just some things about God that we cannot...and honestly, I'm glad! What kind of God would he be if my feeble mind could comprehend Him?? I trust Him, absolutely, and although the thought of hell scares me for those I know will go there, I do know that God's hand is in everything, working for His good and glory!! And we must remember that...we aren't here for our own glory, our own amazing benefit...we live to bring glory to our wonderful maker!! When we go to heaven, that's what we'll be doing...glorifying Him!
As Christians we shouldn't ever rejoyce in hell, we shouldn't ever be glad others are going there...in fact we should feel that this is an added incentive for us to preach the gospel!! Remember, the bible tells us that God is taking His time with human history, wanting that everyone would be saved! But this salvation comes only through repentance and faith in Christ. The Bible is quite clear that that is the thing needed...nothing else will do. So while it may be of great comfort to many to believe that ultimately everyone will be saved, the simple fact that many do not love Jesus cannot be avoided. In fact, many not only do not love Jesus, but actively hate Him and persecute His followers as well. Can we imagine that God would welcome them to Him, without the blood of Jesus covering them? Sadly, I do not,

But all this does not mean our God is not loving! He certainly did not need to provide us with an 'escape' plan! His amazingly deep love is shown by the brutal death of His own Son...a member of the Trinity!! We should never...never lose sight of that, even when considering some of the more difficult things the Bible tells us!

Do you believe that the English translations are without error? I personally don't believe that the scriptures indicate an unending punishment in hell but actually speak to the contrary. Just look at the different words used in the Hebrew and Greek texts that KJV translates all as "hell.
smile.gif
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok, so here are the options I have thought about concerning Hell:

1. Hell is a place for the unredeemed - people who are unredeemed are allowed to flee to a place apart from God - the torture they experience is from within.

2. Hell is not eternal - sinners are tortured for awhile and then annihilated or redeemed

3. Hell is eternal - sinners are tortured for eternity

Not one of these choices is a good option. Torture is never something people look forward to, whether it is a short period of time or forever. It makes me wonder why some Christians are so attached to the idea (in a vindictive way, sometimes) that Hell must be God's Wraith Forever and Ever.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
and although the thought of hell scares me for those I know will go there

please pray for those people they need prayer

Amen! This is why Jesus said is was so important to teach the good news! There are so many people out there who desperately need to know of God's love.


Do you believe that the English translations are without error? I personally don't believe that the scriptures indicate an unending punishment in hell but actually speak to the contrary. Just look at the different words used in the Hebrew and Greek texts that KJV translates all as "hell.
smile.gif

I'm not a language scholar, so I really can't say! Obviously there are some translations that are more acurate - and therefore the 'mainstream' churches choose to use these. But despite these things I think that the spirit of the word will stay the same. Basically I believe that as the Bible is God's revelation to us, He will have a hand in it's continued true message. Why wouldn't He? He has a hand in everything else...the day to day lives of His children (the Holy Spirit), and of course the common grace shown to all when the rain falls, the crops grow and the sun rises! I truly believe that God will not allow His message of salvation to be corrupted by the years and folly of men. So while translations differ, I beleive the true gospel message remains....and that all biblical interpretation should follow from our understandings of these core values. Does that make sense?
So, if I follow this belief, I come to these conclusions: Jesus told us the He was the only way to heaven...belief in and love of, Him! He also told us to repent! To acknowledge our sinful natures and ask for forgivness. Jesus also made it fairly clear, in different terms yes, that there were consequences to unbelief, unrepentance. "Wailing and knashing of teeth!" And then he urged us to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth...how important that was! To me, these all come together in the notion of hell....hell being the consequence. Why the need to repent, to believe and follow Jesus (become a Christian) or to even live any kind of a good life, if there are no consequences?? It's very much like when Paul said that if Jesus really wasn't raised from death, then Christians are the worst kinds of fools...for living with the same hope. If we spend all our lives living for Jesus, repenting and growing towards Him, and yet were going to heaven anyway...the same as the unrepentant rapists and murderers...doesn't that make us fools too?? Why would God need to even give us the Bible or send His son to take our sins, if living just as we choose (as so many people do today) would get us all to heaven?


Ok, so here are the options I have thought about concerning Hell:

1. Hell is a place for the unredeemed - people who are unredeemed are allowed to flee to a place apart from God - the torture they experience is from within.

2. Hell is not eternal - sinners are tortured for awhile and then annihilated or redeemed

3. Hell is eternal - sinners are tortured for eternity

Not one of these choices is a good option. Torture is never something people look forward to, whether it is a short period of time or forever. It makes me wonder why some Christians are so attached to the idea (in a vindictive way, sometimes) that Hell must be God's Wraith Forever and Ever.


I don't enjoy the idea that people will go to hell - whether it's only for a short time or not. But the whole point, I believe, is that it's not really our call. We trust God with our future, our family, our very lives! We pray each day for guidance and strength and to hold us fast in His love. And while we don't really know what heaven will be like, we're quite happy to just trust that He's got the details under control! So why is it so hard to believe that He's got hell under control? It doesn't make sense to us, even hurts us a little, but our God is so big, so amazing, so loving and so just, that all we should need to know about it, is that God will work all things out. It's not our job to work out what is or is not a suitable punishment for sinful people...and let's face it...the only reason we're not in that club is because of what God has done for us! All we need to do is preach the word to everyone...make sure they know of God's amazing love and the fact that sin has consequences.
It's important to remember, I think, that God doesn't just show love and justice...He IS love, He IS just. We see this all throughout the Bible...so why is it so hard to believe that whatever happens in regards to hell....it was a completely just action?
That one of the things I absolutely love about God...I can trust Him completely! :D
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
It's not torture in teh way we usually think of it, like some chamber in a castle udnercroft with a rack and an iron maiden. don't the inhabitants of Hell just get burn't for all eternity by flames that cannot be quenched, they cause unbearable suffering and agony but they don't actually destroy the soul, they just make it suffer.

i believe that it goes on forever, I'd rather it didn't, in fact I'd prefer it if everyone gets to go to heaven but the fact before us is that there is a Hell and it is a very real place filled with fire, sulphur demons (satan included) and it will last forever and never stop, Jesus told us himself and yet so many Christians ignore his words on Hell. Instead they say they don't believe in Hell and that if it does exist, then it must be just be separation from God and misery because they have full knowledge of God but are shut out. Yes, the souls in hell will have that but the lake of fire which is very very real.

I don't like the thought of anyone having to go there but it is a fact that people will and it will be totally avoidable.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
I'm not a language scholar, so I really can't say! Obviously there are some translations that are more acurate - and therefore the 'mainstream' churches choose to use these. But despite these things I think that the spirit of the word will stay the same. Basically I believe that as the Bible is God's revelation to us, He will have a hand in it's continued true message. Why wouldn't He? He has a hand in everything else...the day to day lives of His children (the Holy Spirit), and of course the common grace shown to all when the rain falls, the crops grow and the sun rises! I truly believe that God will not allow His message of salvation to be corrupted by the years and folly of men. So while translations differ, I beleive the true gospel message remains....and that all biblical interpretation should follow from our understandings of these core values. Does that make sense?
So, if I follow this belief, I come to these conclusions: Jesus told us the He was the only way to heaven...belief in and love of, Him! He also told us to repent! To acknowledge our sinful natures and ask for forgivness. Jesus also made it fairly clear, in different terms yes, that there were consequences to unbelief, unrepentance. "Wailing and knashing of teeth!" And then he urged us to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth...how important that was! To me, these all come together in the notion of hell....hell being the consequence. Why the need to repent, to believe and follow Jesus (become a Christian) or to even live any kind of a good life, if there are no consequences?? It's very much like when Paul said that if Jesus really wasn't raised from death, then Christians are the worst kinds of fools...for living with the same hope. If we spend all our lives living for Jesus, repenting and growing towards Him, and yet were going to heaven anyway...the same as the unrepentant rapists and murderers...doesn't that make us fools too?? Why would God need to even give us the Bible or send His son to take our sins, if living just as we choose (as so many people do today) would get us all to heaven?
First of all, thank you Rach for your very civil and respectful post.
Secondly, I don't deny that there is a hell or that it is a place of torment but I don't believe that it is a place of unending torment, nor do I believe that the scriptures indicate such.
And now a question, if Christ did in fact take on the punishment for our sins,(which I believe) what was that punishment?
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Amen! This is why Jesus said is was so important to teach the good news! There are so many people out there who desperately need to know of God's love.




I'm not a language scholar, so I really can't say! Obviously there are some translations that are more acurate - and therefore the 'mainstream' churches choose to use these. But despite these things I think that the spirit of the word will stay the same. Basically I believe that as the Bible is God's revelation to us, He will have a hand in it's continued true message. Why wouldn't He? He has a hand in everything else...the day to day lives of His children (the Holy Spirit), and of course the common grace shown to all when the rain falls, the crops grow and the sun rises! I truly believe that God will not allow His message of salvation to be corrupted by the years and folly of men. So while translations differ, I beleive the true gospel message remains....and that all biblical interpretation should follow from our understandings of these core values. Does that make sense?
So, if I follow this belief, I come to these conclusions: Jesus told us the He was the only way to heaven...belief in and love of, Him! He also told us to repent! To acknowledge our sinful natures and ask for forgivness. Jesus also made it fairly clear, in different terms yes, that there were consequences to unbelief, unrepentance. "Wailing and knashing of teeth!" And then he urged us to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth...how important that was! To me, these all come together in the notion of hell....hell being the consequence. Why the need to repent, to believe and follow Jesus (become a Christian) or to even live any kind of a good life, if there are no consequences?? It's very much like when Paul said that if Jesus really wasn't raised from death, then Christians are the worst kinds of fools...for living with the same hope. If we spend all our lives living for Jesus, repenting and growing towards Him, and yet were going to heaven anyway...the same as the unrepentant rapists and murderers...doesn't that make us fools too?? Why would God need to even give us the Bible or send His son to take our sins, if living just as we choose (as so many people do today) would get us all to heaven?





I don't enjoy the idea that people will go to hell - whether it's only for a short time or not. But the whole point, I believe, is that it's not really our call. We trust God with our future, our family, our very lives! We pray each day for guidance and strength and to hold us fast in His love. And while we don't really know what heaven will be like, we're quite happy to just trust that He's got the details under control! So why is it so hard to believe that He's got hell under control? It doesn't make sense to us, even hurts us a little, but our God is so big, so amazing, so loving and so just, that all we should need to know about it, is that God will work all things out. It's not our job to work out what is or is not a suitable punishment for sinful people...and let's face it...the only reason we're not in that club is because of what God has done for us! All we need to do is preach the word to everyone...make sure they know of God's amazing love and the fact that sin has consequences.
It's important to remember, I think, that God doesn't just show love and justice...He IS love, He IS just. We see this all throughout the Bible...so why is it so hard to believe that whatever happens in regards to hell....it was a completely just action?
That one of the things I absolutely love about God...I can trust Him completely! :D

I enjoy reading your posts, Rach!

I guess for me - worrying about Hell is like worrying about divorce. Both are ruptures in a relationship and require us to give and receive love to avoid. The only difference is that marriage is a relationship with a fallible human and justification/sanctification relationship is with God, who is always faithful. In any case, worrying about it doesn't help either relationship, nor does contemplating the pain or duration of the pain of a rupture in either relationship. I also believe that using a hellfire approach to witnessing is about as effective at convincing the unredeemed as threatening the pains of divorce to a couple who has just fallen in love.

My point is, it would be silly for a pre-marriage counselor to provide a couple who wants to marry with information about how awful a divorce is and how long the pain will last after the split, when they need to be preparing for the common difficulties and joys, which are bound to surface in their married relationship. In my opinion, focusing on divorce is practically planning to have one, when it really shouldn't be an option. Hell shouldn't be an option either (Christ even died to make sure it was not the only option) - now, it is only available for the most anti-social people, who simply cannot connect with the Body of Christ.

Once again, I totally believe that Hell exists - just like federal prison exists, here on Earth; however, just like prison, Hell is not going to be filled with the majority of the population. American has by far, the most people in prison in the world today, but they are still a fraction of our overall population - and we are still under the curse of the Fall! I put a great deal of faith and confidence in Christ's sacrifice, and I believe it is powerful enough to change hearts today. Christ is using history to redeem His creation, despite our wickedness - and He is doing it by teaching us to love instead of judge. Adam and Eve were the first to trade loving for judging in the Garden - which leads to death; Christ, the new Adam, is teaching us how to re-learn what we were to created to do, once again.

blessings
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
First of all, thank you Rach for your very civil and respectful post.
Secondly, I don't deny that there is a hell or that it is a place of torment but I don't believe that it is a place of unending torment, nor do I believe that the scriptures indicate such.
And now a question, if Christ did in fact take on the punishment for our sins,(which I believe) what was that punishment?

Hi Jiggy! Just because we don't necesarily agree doesn't mean we can't be civil! Goodness, we'd then spend our entire lives being nasty to others!
I don't claim to fully understand exactly what hell is! My Biblical understanding is that it's real, it's not nice, and that those who do not follow Jesus will go there. But I draw comfort from the passage that says "those whose transgessions are few, his stripes will be few"...or something like that. It suggesst to me that even within hell, there will be different degrees of punishment.

As far as your question...Christ died for our sins....and the wages of sin is death. I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this!? Quite obviously everyone, saved or not, still dies physically...we can then surmise that we are now saved from a spiritual death, which could also be seen as a spiritual separation from God. But no matter the finer points of what Jesus' death bought for us, we must follow Him to benefit from it...and so many do not.
What are you thinking...let me know!


I enjoy reading your posts, Rach!

I guess for me - worrying about Hell is like worrying about divorce. Both are ruptures in a relationship and require us to give and receive love to avoid. The only difference is that marriage is a relationship with a fallible human and justification/sanctification relationship is with God, who is always faithful. In any case, worrying about it doesn't help either relationship, nor does contemplating the pain or duration of the pain of a rupture in either relationship. I also believe that using a hellfire approach to witnessing is about as effective at convincing the unredeemed as threatening the pains of divorce to a couple who has just fallen in love.

My point is, it would be silly for a pre-marriage counselor to provide a couple who wants to marry with information about how awful a divorce is and how long the pain will last after the split, when they need to be preparing for the common difficulties and joys, which are bound to surface in their married relationship. In my opinion, focusing on divorce is practically planning to have one, when it really shouldn't be an option. Hell shouldn't be an option either (Christ even died to make sure it was not the only option) - now, it is only available for the most anti-social people, who simply cannot connect with the Body of Christ.

Once again, I totally believe that Hell exists - just like federal prison exists, here on Earth; however, just like prison, Hell is not going to be filled with the majority of the population. American has by far, the most people in prison in the world today, but they are still a fraction of our overall population - and we are still under the curse of the Fall! I put a great deal of faith and confidence in Christ's sacrifice, and I believe it is powerful enough to change hearts today. Christ is using history to redeem His creation, despite our wickedness - and He is doing it by teaching us to love instead of judge. Adam and Eve were the first to trade loving for judging in the Garden - which leads to death; Christ, the new Adam, is teaching us how to re-learn what we were to created to do, once again.

blessings

Hey Aspen, I like chatting to you too! I suspect it's your profession that helps get the mind really ticking over!
As far as the "hellfire" approach...no, I don't think thats the best lead. But consider...let's use your marriage counselling idea...sure you don't want to give them a 'course' in divorce, but don't you think it's important that they are at least made aware of what could happen should they not work on their marriage? It's always important to know the consequences to your actions...most of our decisions in life are based on them! As a child we reach a point where going for the lollie stash is just not worth it anymore...at school we modify our behaviour to avoid detention, and even when we hit the work force we have to weigh every decision against possible consequences.
The Bible is full of them...God makes covenant with people, and part of those covenants are what will happen if we don't comply. God told Adam.."dont touch the fruit", he did and we were separated from close relationship with God. God told Moses to tell the people "no idols", but even as Moses spoke with God the people made a golden cow and those people never saw their promised land. Jesus tells us that He is the only way to the Father and that His salvation is the only way to be saved...many people don't believe and scoff....it follows that there is a fairly hefty consequence to this, especially since Jesus coming to redeem mannkind has been Gods grand plan from the beginning.
But despite this, I do truly believe that people will be won by the gospel...the good news, rather than the fear of hell! If the concern of hell gets people thinking, well, I suppose that's not bad...but you don't tend to get people to love out of fear. Jesus' love will earn people's love...I think it's as simple as that! When it comes down to it, it could be that the message of hell is more for us believers than anything....just think...we don't need fear it, we are safe in Jesus' grace...but knowing of it should propel us forward, make us hunger for the lost and want their salvation as much as we want our next heartbeat!!
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Hi Jiggy! Just because we don't necesarily agree doesn't mean we can't be civil! Goodness, we'd then spend our entire lives being nasty to others!
I don't claim to fully understand exactly what hell is! My Biblical understanding is that it's real, it's not nice, and that those who do not follow Jesus will go there. But I draw comfort from the passage that says "those whose transgessions are few, his stripes will be few"...or something like that. It suggesst to me that even within hell, there will be different degrees of punishment.

As far as your question...Christ died for our sins....and the wages of sin is death. I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this!? Quite obviously everyone, saved or not, still dies physically...we can then surmise that we are now saved from a spiritual death, which could also be seen as a spiritual separation from God. But no matter the finer points of what Jesus' death bought for us, we must follow Him to benefit from it...and so many do not.
What are you thinking...let me know!


Yes Christ died for our sins because the just punishment for sin is death, not unending torment. If unending torment was the just punishment then Christ would be undergoing torment right now in hell.

But no matter the finer points of what Jesus' death bought for us, we must follow Him to benefit from it...and so many do not.


Tis true, many do not submit to Christ yet but I believe that one day all will submit just as the scriptures declare, "every knee bow and every tongue confess". Then it will be apparent that God's Word (the Christ) accomplished the purpose of God His Fat6her. He was sent to take away the sin of the world.
smile.gif
 

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,583
123
0
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt 25:41


-- There is nothing in the Bible - no thing - that indicates that this will be a temporary stopping point before finally being 'redeemed.'

I have even listened to people on this board who have argued that those sent there will be "burned into nothingness" but even they do not try to claim some unsupported idea of a temporary stay before God redeems them.