No one can see the Kingdom of God unless...

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Can you see the Kingdom of God in your midst?

  • Yes I can

    Votes: 7 53.8%
  • No I cant

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • I dont understand the question

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • The kingdom has not fully come in yet

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .

stunnedbygrace

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I can only rely on the words I read and assume the words were chosen correctly.

You missed my point. Do we see things exactly as God sees them? Do we think of things exactly as God does? You and I, we don't even have the same definition in our heads of one single word, really. Yet we have the same definition and thoughts as God...?
 
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mjrhealth

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Reminds me of . . .
1 John 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."

Much love!
Just doesnt look that way... does it...
 

DNB

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Something to do with

Act 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

its all hearing not reading. or studying or arguing, or bickering over whos right. there are only 3 that are right

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

and you will find the truth no where else, unless it is "your" truth you re seeking.

Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

and who is the word of God

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You have teh horse before the cart
Whether you realize it or not, consequently, you're claiming infallibility.
If all your understandings of God's Word are derived from the Holy Spirit, then you are not to be contended with, or else, one is resisting God. Are you prepared to affirm that?
 

Giuliano

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You missed my point. Do we see things exactly as God sees them? Do we think of things exactly as God does? You and I, we don't even have the same definition in our heads of one single word, really. Yet we have the same definition and thoughts as God...?
I assume even with people that there are differences. I assume too that language is imprecise. If I say, "I have a black chair," you will have only a vague idea of what I mean. I could use many more words and still fail to convey an exact description. Now if you saw the chair for yourself, then you would know what I meant.

The Jews have a saying about the Torah that it is written in the language of men. That is a warning to be careful when assigning human qualities to God. If the Torah says God wrote something with His finger, we ought not assume God has a literal physical finger. Rather God did something that if a human had done would have been done with a finger. So what might God actually write with? Who knows? We lack a word for it. The closest word for it is "finger" even though that can be misleading. So that is the word used.

So far as I know, both Hebrew and Greek can be misleading when it comes to translating into English. It's said that "aion" in Greek means "age" and that "from aion to aion" means eternity. The Hebrew strikes me as even vaguer. Christianity started off fairly simple; then theologians entered the picture and began trying to divine more and more about God. They quarreled and the divisions within the church began. I don't find that a useful thing to do. I rely on what Israel was told.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The Bible for me is not an attempt to explain the mysteries of God. It is not a book that says a lot about the afterlife with much precision. I read it as a book meant to help us now in our daily lives. If we do the right things now, we don't need to know everything about God and the afterlife will take care of itself.

I also wonder if the theologians took the story about Eve to heart. It's one of the first lessons in the Bible, yet one that theologians never learned. It's as if they want to know everything God knows.

So what does "everlasting" mean? To me, it means it lasts through time -- and will be there at any point in time. Could it exist also in eternity? Perhaps -- I don't know. I wouldn't want to speculate. For me, I say only God as Creator existed before anything else -- for me only God is eternal. I read that Jesus is the beginning and end. I read those as temporal terms. I do not jump to the conclusions Catholic theologians did in the Third and Fourth Centuries.

Yet there is one thing I can say I am convinced of concerning how divinity and humanity interact. I believe each of us, as spiritual beings, start off the size of a mustard seed or a grain of sand. I also call it "a divine spark." It is part of God.

We read God looked at Adam and said it was not good that he be alone. What did God know about being alone? Here I will speculate. God could exist in eternity without creating anything. How tedious, how boring. But if God is Love, God would want "others" He could love and who perhaps would love Him in return.

How to make them then? You can observe this for yourself. You can say you love a sweater or a blanket or some other physical object; but really now, it can't love you back and you know it. It's also not enough like you that you could love it too much. We can love plants a little more since they are alive; and we can love animals even more since they're more like us with feelings and the ability to show some love in return. It's possible to love other people more -- and we find the better they are, the easier it is to love them. I would conjecture (being unmarried) too that an even higher degree of love is possible between two people -- and that a spiritual union is possible between them where they understand each other completely -- and the Bible uses the word "know" to show that.

We are also told that the "first commandment" is to love God. Yet Adam was not told to love God. He was told to cleave to Eve. Why? Speaking for myself, that commandment to love God confused me for years since I realized God was a mystery to me. How can I love what I don't understand? I found two more clues in the Bible. One is where John says we are liars if we say we love God and don't love other people. The other clue is when Jesus said the second commandment (to love others) is "like" the first one (to love God). The more I learn about others and the more I can love them, the better position I am in to understand God and His purposes and to love Him. Adam could not really love God fully unless he first learned how to love Eve. If Adam and Eve had become one as told to do, one of the mysteries of God would have revealed, so I believe.

For me then every person on this earth is a manifestation of God at some stage of development. I see people daily. It's under my nose. The Bible acts as a guide for me about that. Why worry about eternity when I'm here now? (Take no thought for the morrow.) I do not say the following lightly, and I realize it could easily be taken the wrong way. Some Christians are too wrapped up with Jesus only as if other people don't matter. Perhaps they think some benefit will come to them by that? As if Jesus craves all the attention? His life shows otherwise. Jesus is not a self-centered person who wants compliments all the time. It is possible to call him, "Lord, lord" and have the wrong impression about him.
 

Giuliano

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What was his new commandment? "That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." What we have seen throughout the history of Christianity is that people claimed to love Jesus, even proclaiming him God, while disobeying that commandment.

I don't know who first came up with the idea that Jesus is God; but someone did, and then it became the occupation of the theologians to scour the Bible to see if they could find passages to support it. The controversies were intense. Yet how could it be? Israel was told what God to worship. They were told not to follow anyone who taught otherwise.

Deuteronomy 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Jesus also said the Jews had the correct understand of God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Yet we read that many Jews converted to Christianity. That tells me the early church was not teaching a new God. Later theologians tried to find evidence the early church did. In came controversies like what does "everlasting" mean. How Matthew deals with Old Testament prophecies contains problems, that's for sure; and I do not know if they were later additions to the text or if Matthew intended to have them read as parallels to previous fulfillments. Thus he cites Rachel weeping Ramah -- that had already been fulfilled once. Now take the passage from Isaiah which I think was cited earlier in this thread. Let me start with the context. The wicked king Ahaz is told to ask for a sign from God, and he declines to do it.

Isaiah 7:10 Moreover the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
11 Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.


Then we find out he's going to get a sign anyway.

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

So we see that the birth of this child was supposed to occur in the lifetime of King Ahaz. Also, the KJV mistranslates this to fit in with Matthew -- it really says a young woman will conceive. The prophecy goes on, too, with details that have nothing to do with Jesus.

11 Therefore the Lord shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;
12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


Chapter 9 has its problems too if we try to make it about Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world. He certainly didn't get involved in government or sit on the physical throne of David. I'd say someone was trying too hard. I believe in the Virgin Birth based on the New Testament assertion. I don't need to have it found in the Old Testament. I find it odd too to think Jesus could be equated to "the everlasting Father" as if God the Father could incarnate. (In Isaiah 9:6, I would think "everlasting" is correct since God is present throughout all time, but it would be right also to say God is eternal, beyond everlasting.) As well, giving someone a name that includes "Yah" or "El" does not mean that person is God. The theologians were stretching hard if you ask me.

So how to read "everlasting"? That's one question. Another question is if Isaiah wanted to write a prophecy about Jesus, would he include passages that obviously don't refer to Jesus? How do prophets pick their words?

I realize this response was long. Feel free to answer only whatever you are interested in. I don't mean to bore you to death.
 
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mjrhealth

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you're claiming infallibility
And how may I ask am I doing that?? I am not Christ nor am I god or His Spirit so where please did you drag that "assumption, lie", from... thats right the devil is the father of all lies is he not,,

If all your understandings of God's Word are derived from the Holy Spirit, then you are not to be contended with, or else, one is resisting God. Are you prepared to affirm that?

You mean my understanding of the bible.... I guess you havnt noticed I dont participate in all the "arguments" on this forum, do you think God would be foolish enough to give one man all the truth, besides he would explode, no man could ever withstand all the knowledge and wisdom of God, and look at what man has done with the bible, a book, made God a liar, made Him a hypocrite, reduced Him our God to the same as a man, took away His power and authority, shut up His mouth, bound Him hand and Foot, and than created mutliple version of Him as if He is schizo. So ill leave you with little gem fro ma book you dont believe.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
 
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DNB

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And how may I ask am I doing that?? I am not Christ nor am I god or His Spirit so where please did you drag that "assumption, lie", from... thats right the devil is the father of all lies is he not,,



You mean my understanding of the bible.... I guess you havnt noticed I dont participate in all the "arguments" on this forum, do you think God would be foolish enough to give one man all the truth, besides he would explode, no man could ever withstand all the knowledge and wisdom of God, and look at what man has done with the bible, a book, made God a liar, made Him a hypocrite, reduced Him our God to the same as a man, took away His power and authority, shut up His mouth, bound Him hand and Foot, and than created mutliple version of Him as if He is schizo. So ill leave you with little gem fro ma book you dont believe.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
ok, maybe I misunderstood what you meant by, not reading the Bible, and being guided by the Spirit?
But still, I'm having an extremely hard time understanding you basis for inspiration, and insight into God's Word? It still sounds like you're saying that it's just you & the spirit discerning all divine knowledge and instruction (not all, but what's required for man).
Either way, sounds misguided, verging on deluded.
 

mjrhealth

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It still sounds like you're saying that it's just you & the spirit discerning all divine knowledge and instructio
We all receive the same Jesus the same Holy spirit, and what makes you think Im the only one, Jesus the same today yesterday and forever, God never stopped talking men just got ignorant and stopped listening to there own en.
 

DNB

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We all receive the same Jesus the same Holy spirit, and what makes you think Im the only one, Jesus the same today yesterday and forever, God never stopped talking men just got ignorant and stopped listening to there own en.
No, I understand that Jesus is willing, for as you said, he is the same yesterday, today & forever, and he definitely promised the Holy Spirit. But, I make a profound distinction between the gift or promise, and the alleged testimony to partaking of it. Two very different realities.
And like I say continuously, it's the ones who claim to have it, that are the worst exegetes that I've ever heard. Just a consistent observation.
 

mjrhealth

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Two very different realities.

So what you are saying is you dont believe it???? or is ti you are "unwilling", As for
thats just smart men terms for im smarter than you, but as Christ put it.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Come to me like little children, He said, yet the smart ones are still running away, what are they afraid of.. The truth.
 
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DNB

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So what you are saying is you dont believe it???? or is ti you are "unwilling", As for
thats just smart men terms for im smarter than you, but as Christ put it.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Come to me like little children, He said, yet the smart ones are still running away, what are they afraid of.. The truth.
Well, you heard what i said, I believe in the promises, and that they are available, but I have yet to see a believer who is truly endowed with such wisdom and supernatural power.
In other words, it's offensive that you claim such feebleness as coming from the Holy Spirit?
 

mjrhealth

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In other words, it's offensive that you claim such feebleness as coming from the Holy Spirit?
Not offensive at all,, what you are doing is,

2Ti_3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

you made a box and put God in it, and wont let Him out that is your doing. You choose to be counted among the children of men and not the sons of God.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You know what the word deny means, how long you going to refuse Him.

deny
/dɪˈnʌɪ/

verb
verb: deny; 3rd person present: denies; past tense: denied; past participle: denied; gerund or present participle: denying
  1. 1.
    state that one refuses to admit the truth or existence of.
    "both firms deny any responsibility for the tragedy"
    • refuse to admit the truth of (a concept or proposition that is supported by the majority of scientific or historical evidence).
      "an anti-environmentalist campaign group that denies climate change"
  2. 2.
    refuse to give (something requested or desired) to (someone).
    "the inquiry was denied access to intelligence sources"
Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

just remember who refused who.
 

DNB

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Not offensive at all,, what you are doing is,

2Ti_3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

you made a box and put God in it, and wont let Him out that is your doing. You choose to be counted among the children of men and not the sons of God.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You know what the word deny means, how long you going to refuse Him.

deny
/dɪˈnʌɪ/

verb
verb: deny; 3rd person present: denies; past tense: denied; past participle: denied; gerund or present participle: denying
  1. 1.
    state that one refuses to admit the truth or existence of.
    "both firms deny any responsibility for the tragedy"
    • refuse to admit the truth of (a concept or proposition that is supported by the majority of scientific or historical evidence).
      "an anti-environmentalist campaign group that denies climate change"
  2. 2.
    refuse to give (something requested or desired) to (someone).
    "the inquiry was denied access to intelligence sources"
Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

just remember who refused who.
Yes, and you must also remember who's being rejected. I'm rejecting your claim, not Christ's claim. Very big difference. In that, all the verses that you keep quoting have nothing to do with me, for I accept them. I just don't accept hogwash, cliches or repeatable Bible verses as coming from the Lord. I expect power and wisdom, the fleeing of devil spirits and signs & wonders.
Have you pulled off anything as such lately?
 

mjrhealth

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I just don't accept hogwash, cliches or repeatable Bible verses as coming from the Lord. I expect power and wisdom, the fleeing of devil spirits and signs & wonders.
And as Jesus put it

Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

So you will get none, your choosing.
 

DNB

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And as Jesus put it

Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

So you will get none, your choosing.
You always cut-off the most important and indicting part of my accusation!
 

mjrhealth

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You always cut-off the most important and indicting part of my accusation!

Accuser who is the accuser

Rev_12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

now we know what spirit you are under.