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No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Truth7t7, Jun 8, 2021 at 5:35 AM.

  1. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    You stopped reading too soon. That’s the problem with proof texting.

    In Luke 21:8-35 Jesus describes the tribulation, then says THIS important statement about the tribulation:

    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Those Christians who are worthy, will escape all those things in the great tribulation, not go through them.
     
  2. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    That there is a tribulation church during the great tribulation is very evident in scripture, especially in light of John seeing a humongous crowd of the souls of martyrs who were beheaded for refusing to take the mark or worship the beast.

    Those saved after the mid trib rapture will have to die at the hands of the Antichrist - there’s no escape from it for them.
     
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  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Without making it too complicated, they were concerned about the whole being gathered to Jesus thing, because they were being told the Day of Christ has arrived.

    Whether they had been gathered to Jesus or not, I'm thinking that they would know.

    While I don't disagree with the importance of these things, that's not actually what God was saying there.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
    1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    He was telling us about the sequence of how things will happen in that time.

    Not so. Apo = away from , Stao = I stand, apostasia = away from standing, that is, as a noun, departure. This is classical Greek.

    The word has been used a lot for rebellion, but that doesn't change it's literal meaning.

    You can think of this like the word gay. It's meaning is lighthearted, happy. But now everybody uses it to label homosexuals. The word still means happy just the same.

    So true!

    :)

    Much love!
     
  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you are reading my posts. Or maybe you are confusing me with someone else. I don't think this is working out very well.

    I think I'm going to bow out at this point.

    Much love!
     
  5. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus instructs the church to be ready for the second coming, not drink or caught up in the cares of this world

    Your claim "escape all these things" isnt a pre-trib rapture as you falsely suggest, as you look back into the hat for another rabbit

    You give complete disregard to the Church looking up, their redemption draws nigh in verse 28, as you take verse 36 below "Out Of Context" in a desperate attempt to create a pre-trib rapture, "Sad"

    "So That Day Come Upon You Unawares"

    Luke 21:34-36KJV
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
     
  6. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Fairy tales in fiction, left behind series episode 13
     
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    You "Continue" To Push False Propaganda

    The Ole Dallas Theological Grad (Thomas Ice) And His False Claim That The Greek (Apostasia) Is Interpreted As A Departure Of The Church To Heaven In A Pre-Trib Rapture, Big Smiles!

    (Apostasia) Defection From Truth Once Held

    Strong’s Definitions
    ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647: defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.


    2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no pre-trib rapture as dispensationalism falsely teaches

    Luke 21:25-28KJV
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 5:43 PM
  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Fine, just to have closure let me say, you said this a few posts back:
    "Even so, there is nothing in the Bible that talks about the church or the body of Christ being on the earth during the reign of the beast. Nothing says that."

    It was I who presented the argument against Pretrib, which often argues that the Church *cannot* be here during the Tribulation Period, the Reign of Antichrist. And you said you don't use that argument, but then proceeded to state the above, that the "Body of Christ" isn't here--at least you were inferring that.

    I think it's *you* who are very confused, and rightfully abandon such arguments. They aren't good for Pretrib, which I think is in error and unbiblical. 2 Thes 2.
     
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  9. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus spoke of the Great Tribulation in Matt. 24:21 He was referring to the bowl judgments of Rev. 16 because these are the only judgments that will take place in the second half of Daniel’s 70th Week, after the anti-Christ sets up the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27).
    • Revelation 20:4-6 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    • Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world.
     
  10. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    That is my point, that any claim to somehow *be* the Kingdom of God coming cannot be the actual Kingdom of God coming, precisely because something must happen first, namely the rise of Antichrist and ultimately, his destruction. Christ can only return at the time he comes to destroy the Antichrist. Preliminary claims to his Coming are therefore false.

    The danger in this is what I was explaining, and what led to the Thessalonians' being anxious. Preliminary claims to the Kingdom lead cults to believe they can exercise eschatological power now. It is the equivalent of the Crusades, trying to take the Kingdom of God by force assuming one's group is the anointed vanguard of this Kingdom.

    I'm speaking of how the word "departure" was typically used. And I'm speaking of the context, as well.

    CLICK
    ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:(29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).
     
  11. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    Like I pointed out all are Anti-Christ are regardless of who they are or claim to be.

    Their are no Jews in fact today or for 2000 years that are worthy of being called Jews, the religion failed 2000 years ago, such a Tribe does not exist in blood line or Nation in fact.

    What you have in the so called State is a bastard State and anyone who claims it is Israel is condemned as an Anti-Christ in fact, because such a one who makes such claims is in fact out right rejecting that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel.
    A so called Christian who makes such claims is delusional and is outright rejecting Jesus Christ as the King of Israel in fact. so they are under great delusions ?

    Someone claiming to be Jewish by blood line is kidding themselves, what % are they ? 99% would not even be 10 % blood line and when Jesus came that was not the point at all that he was on about, he was on about the Holy Spirit, if you don't have this you are nothing regardless of your claims at all, Judaism will not save you, Judaism is only the blueprint that led to Jesus Christ. we do not need people who claim to be Jewish, we have it all in the OT books. sadly most Christians do not know much at all about the OT books and that's why they get hung up on nonsense that cunning devils play on them.

    The only person that could claim to be Jewish is one who truly follows the OT regardless of his race etc, todays people claiming to be Jews are lost as ever totally disregarding the OT and off with the pixies with total filth like the Talmud whore pulling the strings, the Talmud is the most totally way out racial prejudice evil vile load of Satanic work ever written, way worse that even Islam and I believe that such works inspired the foundations of Islam.

    I reject the word Anti-Semitic for a start as just hogwash, such a word is a work of the Devil a creation that is in fact totally deceptive. The Semitic people are a Race of people, not to mention one could say about 90% of them just happen to be of the Islamic religion.
    So if one was to be truly Anti-Semitic one would be talking about a Race of people would they not ?
    Christianity is not talking about Race at all as all are as one under C
     
  12. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    Under Christianity all people are as one people as their is no Jew or Greek both are the same under Christ.
    So as to the carnal mind they make stupid claims of Race, Christianity is not concerned with Race but Religion.
    So a true worthy Christian could never be claimed to be Anti-Semitic in any way at all in fact.
    It is a duty of a Christian to expose false hood and so we do not promote false Religions, but we expose them for what they truly are.
    A Christian is not at war with flesh and blood but exposing deceptions.
     
  13. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Scripture refutes you. It’s not fiction.

    Here’s those coming out of the great tribulation.- who are obviously Christians - during the tribulation - who were martyred for not taking the mark:

    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
     
  14. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    The Kingdom of God is within you ! no one can say here it is ! or behold their it is.
    It is in the midst of you and within your power to reach through faith.
    It has begun - The Pharisees might of recognised it, if they had eyes to see and ears to hear.
    The Messiah is already Reigning.
    That is what being born again is about. as you are one in Christ and he in you, Saved ! so no one can pluck you out of his hand, because you are his.
    At the second coming will come the Hellfire and what is burnt up is all the delusions and all will have no delusions set before you and what is left is God, as that's all that will exist for you. total reality is going to hit home ? and you will have nothing but to abide by, no body is going to be playing the deception fool because nobody will have time for that sugar.
     
  15. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Two comings of Christ occur. In the first coming, He came as a sacrificial lamb, not to set up a physical kingdom as the OT prophesied, so the kingdom was spiritual.

    Second time He comes as the lion of Judah with a sword and the wrath of God to rule the nations with a rod of iron, which means He rules as king in His millennial kingdom.

    That kingdom is physical.
     
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  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    What I said was, the Bible itself doesn't say that. Make of it what you will, just, it doesn't say it.

    But no, I don't use that argument. I can be aware of the arguments, and of their strengths and weaknesses, and not ascribe to them.

    You inferred it. The speaker implies, which I wasn't, the listener infers.

    I'm thinking you aren't really understanding my POV, as you keep mixing into it things I don't say and don't think.

    Much love!
     
  17. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Of course Christian's will die today in tribulation, as they have died throughout history

    You have a Sci-Fi scenario that every Christian on earth will be killed, wrong

    The two Witnesses will rule the entire tribulation, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

    How many Hebrews were running around scared and being killed in Egypt, how many Hebrews lost their first born on the passover?

    Same situation during the tribulation, Gods two witnesses rule

    Does it look like the Antichrist is the Boss below, Christians running around getting heads cut off, Big Smiles!

    Tormented for 5 months, desiring to die as death flees, the "Sealed" Church is protected and you falsely teach the Antichrist is running around killing all Christians "Wrong"

    You remain silent on that seen below, because you want to sell fear, in a pre-trib rapture to escape your man made sci-fi

    Revelation 9:3-6KJV
    3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    Revelation 16:1-11KJV
    1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
    3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
    4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
    5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
    6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
    7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
    8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
    9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 7:18 PM
  18. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Brother, we are not appointed to HIS wrath but we ARE appointed to the persecution of satan, through evil men.
     
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  19. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    YES!!! Eaveryday!!! But the great tribulation is God's wrath against all evil Jesus rejectors not against His family (church) we raptured believers are in heaven!! And you????
     
  20. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you're trying deliberately to be obscure. You say you don't use the argument that the Church isn't in the Tribulation Period. And then you imply that during the Tribulation the "Body of Christ" isn't here. You seem to enjoy the seclusion of not clarifying things for me?

    When you say "the Bible doesn't say that," are you saying that the *idea* isn't being presented biblically, or are you saying that the *exact words* I used aren't be used as such? I say that because the Scriptures do say what you claim it doesn't say. If the Body of Christ is the Church, and we are informed that Christians are in the Tribulation Period, ie the Church is in the Tribulation Period, then it follows that what the Bible is saying is that the *Body of Christ* is in the Tribulation Period.

    If the Scriptures say Jesus was hung on a cross in one verse, and in that verse it doesn't say that Christ was hung on a cross, does that mean that that verse doesn't say that Christ was hung on a cross? Obviously, the verse wouldn't be using the exact words that "Christ was hung on a cross." But conceptually, the Bible is using a synonym for Christ, and as such is, in effect, saying that Christ hung on a cross!

    The same with the Body of Christ. If it is synonymous with the Church or Christians, and we know that the Bible says saints who believe in Christ are in the Tribulation Period, we can know for sure that the Bible is saying that the Body of Christ is in the Tribulation Period.
     
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